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mous1

A more in depth talk about fire.

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17 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

We would really need a new type of flooding that does far less damage than the current flooding fro9m torpedoes does.

Yeah that flooding is insane. Something similar to fire damage maybe. I never gave it in-depth thought but I have thought that gaping holes through the water line should cause some flooding.

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15 minutes ago, MrSparkle said:

Yeah that flooding is insane. Something similar to fire damage maybe. I never gave it in-depth thought but I have thought that gaping holes through the water line should cause some flooding.

Flooding from torpedoes is probably pretty accurate, torpedoes made really big holes.

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19 hours ago, EAnybody said:

So, you'd prefer that cruisers have no way of damaging BBs?  That certainly eliminates any possible counter to BBs, since DDs have long since been nerfed into the ground as a possible BB counter. 

Managing how you are on fire is a skill. You can't just derp around the map - if you're being fired upon by cruisers that are setting you on fire regularly, then:

(a) you're away from your own supporting ships which can help counter it

(b) you're in the wrong place in the map, where cruisers and DDs can hide behind islands and shoot

(c) you're trying too hard to fight them all by yourself

(d) your aim stinks, since you can't seem to eliminate the CAs with your big BB AP.

 

The fire meta is what it has been for almost 3 years now; in fact, it's HARDER to set ships on fire than it was 6 months ago.  Fire is the BB's primary weakness these days, since the vast majority of other threats are now either easily defeated or quickly countered. 

I hate to say this, but your problem is either experience or user education. It's not the current fire implementation.

 

Fire meta has been worse than it was a year ago ( i was there) 

(a) if i need to rely on supporting ships to beat one cruiser that acts a flamethrower then it proves my point

(b) im not talking about that situation

(c) im not, however they are prime targets because of the sheer fire damage one can do too me

(d) aim doesent matter when theres a 15 km atago with rudder shift

AND A CRUISER CAN EASILY DO DAMAGE TO A BB However cruisers arent just able to fight with bbs they are able to obliterate one 

Fire is a way that a cruiser can fight a bb its good, however fire is overboard right now 

i constantly get 3 fires on a battleship in atago,and Cleveland,new orleans and while playing battleships im allways on fire in combat 

If you want to blind yourself from actual problems and continue buffing khab then sure, so be it.

this is the only thing im saying too you becuase your one of ( those players)

Edited by mous1

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5 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

Flooding from torpedoes is probably pretty accurate, torpedoes made really big holes.

torp flooding was very effective and dangerous for the ship if left unchecked however usually flooding is not unchecked and is delt with as fast as possible but if a battleship caused a flooding effect for overpens that could counter cruisers being so brave becuase they will burn the battleship down anyways.

Edited by mous1

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1 hour ago, mous1 said:

torp flooding was very effective and dangerous for the ship if left unchecked however usually flooding is not unchecked and is delt with as fast as possible but if a battleship caused a flooding effect for overpens that could counter cruisers being so brave becuase they will burn the battleship down anyways.

Back in alpha you would very rarely cause flooding by shell fire but I think that may have been unintended.

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4 hours ago, mous1 said:

Fire meta has been worse than it was a year ago ( i was there) 

(a) if i need to rely on supporting ships to beat one cruiser that acts a flamethrower then it proves my point

(b) im not talking about that situation

(c) im not, however they are prime targets because of the sheer fire damage one can do too me

(d) aim doesent matter when theres a 15 km atago with rudder shift

AND A CRUISER CAN EASILY DO DAMAGE TO A BB However cruisers arent just able to fight with bbs they are able to obliterate one 

Fire is a way that a cruiser can fight a bb its good, however fire is overboard right now 

i constantly get 3 fires on a battleship in atago,and Cleveland,new orleans and while playing battleships im allways on fire in combat 

If you want to blind yourself from actual problems and continue buffing khab then sure, so be it.

this is the only thing im saying too you becuase your one of ( those players)

You obviously weren't there over a year ago when German BBs first came out. If you think the RN BB Fires are bad, people using the KM BB was far worse.

Funny thing - people figured out how to counter it, and it went away.  The problem with RN BBs is worse, but we're slowly figuring out how to counter that, and the entire fire meta is otherwise unchanged - if anything, it's down, as they nerfed the fire time to CAs and DDs a couple of patches ago.

I play German BBs, as well as different CAs and DDs. No USSR DDs, though.  Funny enough, while I often have 1 fire burning on me in my KM BB (which, by the way, are the biggest targets, easiest to spot, and most prone to fire damage), I seldom have 2 or more. That's because I have both the proper anti-fire captain skills, and I know how to manage my DC and position well.

Fire isn't even remotely overboard. Most DDs can't do much damage to BBs without it (as torpedoes are notoriously easy to dodge), and even CA gunfire is mediocre as far as damage goes. It can take 2 or 3 minutes in a CA to do 20k in HE damage to a BB, and CA AP is extremely situational against BBs, whereas a single shell from a BB can do 10k easily.  CAs are all about DPM - damage over time, and fire is a part of that. BBs are primarily alpha strike - massive damage infrequently.  If you're exposed to a CA's DPM, then it's your bad play (or your team's bad play). 

Oh, and it is your aim. Halfway decent BB drivers (and, while I'm decent, I'm not excellent, there's plenty of them way better than me) can put at least 1 AP round per full volley into a dodging cruiser at 15km. I know - I get regularly citadelled by plunging fire at that range from T8+ BBs.

Sorry, but your problem is PEBKAC for the BB drivers. It's the same issue when they whine about invisible DDs and torpedoes that come out of nowhere, when they've sailed in a straight line for the last 4 minutes.  

 

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On 1/15/2018 at 11:40 PM, SireneRacker said:

In Terms of raw damage numbers, yes. In Terms of percentages, absolutely no. Carriers take more damage.

Which they share with Cruisers and Aircraft Carriers.

Which also lasts longer.

Except of course for the Magic Consumable that you have that restores 100% of the fire damage, but why should we bother with it?

Indeed, Battleships are the ships best able to withstand fire damage.  They can even recover from it.  How does that Omaha, Cleveland, Aoba, Myoko recover lost HP from fire damage?  They can't.  Most Cruisers in the game don't even have Repair Party.  Not to mention Cruisers don't have the HP to absorb damage the way BBs do, as well as the armor to resist AP shells from the 5-6 BBs of a team per match.  WG is implementing more and more BBs with ultra-protected citadels or waterline, or even below waterline citadels, all while Cruisers have super-vulnerable citadels.  Hell, some Cruisers are so poorly protected that they can be citadeled with DD HE shells! :Smile_teethhappy:

 

Not to mention USN BB Damage Control Party has a very long active duration.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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14 hours ago, EAnybody said:

You obviously weren't there over a year ago when German BBs first came out. If you think the RN BB Fires are bad, people using the KM BB was far worse.

Funny thing - people figured out how to counter it, and it went away.  The problem with RN BBs is worse, but we're slowly figuring out how to counter that, and the entire fire meta is otherwise unchanged - if anything, it's down, as they nerfed the fire time to CAs and DDs a couple of patches ago.

I play German BBs, as well as different CAs and DDs. No USSR DDs, though.  Funny enough, while I often have 1 fire burning on me in my KM BB (which, by the way, are the biggest targets, easiest to spot, and most prone to fire damage), I seldom have 2 or more. That's because I have both the proper anti-fire captain skills, and I know how to manage my DC and position well.

Fire isn't even remotely overboard. Most DDs can't do much damage to BBs without it (as torpedoes are notoriously easy to dodge), and even CA gunfire is mediocre as far as damage goes. It can take 2 or 3 minutes in a CA to do 20k in HE damage to a BB, and CA AP is extremely situational against BBs, whereas a single shell from a BB can do 10k easily.  CAs are all about DPM - damage over time, and fire is a part of that. BBs are primarily alpha strike - massive damage infrequently.  If you're exposed to a CA's DPM, then it's your bad play (or your team's bad play). 

Oh, and it is your aim. Halfway decent BB drivers (and, while I'm decent, I'm not excellent, there's plenty of them way better than me) can put at least 1 AP round per full volley into a dodging cruiser at 15km. I know - I get regularly citadelled by plunging fire at that range from T8+ BBs.

Sorry, but your problem is PEBKAC for the BB drivers. It's the same issue when they whine about invisible DDs and torpedoes that come out of nowhere, when they've sailed in a straight line for the last 4 minutes.  

 

There's no real way to counter it other than using Damage Control Party 2, captain skills like Fire Preventing and Basics of Survivability, and premium consumables.

I finished the fire tasks last night using HE with my Arizona and to be honest I was amazed at how much damage HE was doing. They can only use damage control every so often and in between they're burning from multiple fires and my damage score keeps rising. And if I wasn't lighting them on fire after their DC use someone else was. There was no escaping the fire. It was a night of BBs burning everywhere,and even cruisers.

In my Iowa last night I managed to survive nonstop HE by replacing SGM2 with Damage Control 2, respeccing my captain to FP and BoS, and running the hell away until my concealment kicked in and I could use my next repair party off cooldown.

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1 hour ago, MrSparkle said:

There's no real way to counter it other than using Damage Control Party 2, captain skills like Fire Preventing and Basics of Survivability, and premium consumables.

I finished the fire tasks last night using HE with my Arizona and to be honest I was amazed at how much damage HE was doing. They can only use damage control every so often and in between they're burning from multiple fires and my damage score keeps rising. And if I wasn't lighting them on fire after their DC use someone else was. There was no escaping the fire. It was a night of BBs burning everywhere,and even cruisers.

In my Iowa last night I managed to survive nonstop HE by replacing SGM2 with Damage Control 2, respeccing my captain to FP and BoS, and running the hell away until my concealment kicked in and I could use my next repair party off cooldown.

 

Well, better positioning and (gulp) TEAM PLAY works real well to reduce your major fire problems.  And, Yup - you actually have to make a trade off here.  Just like you don't get extended secondaries for free, or better AA for free, you have to spec for anti-fire. 

That's called BALANCE.

Right now, the major issue is that the RN BBs have screwed up everything. It's the same thing that happened when the KM BBs came in.  BB drivers saw how the new BB line's HE was "great", and started using it, despite the fact that it's severely sub-par for everything else.  Took almost 6 months for that idiocy to clear up. And it comes back again when there are missions that require fire damage.  

The (by far biggest) issue is that RN BB HE is far too powerful. Not that cruiser or DD HE is too powerful - it's exactly the same that it's been for almost 2 years now (modulo the fire reduction nerf on CAs and DDs 2 months ago actually weakening fire).  It's all the OP RN HE that needs to be fixed, for many reasons, not just fire.

 

You'll note that savvy BB drivers (who aren't in RN ships) use AP virtually all the time, since it works FAR better than HE against everything. Really, at this point, the only time BB HE is worth while is if you're shooting an uptier BB that's so angled against your AP that it bounced.  EVERY other target is better to shoot AP at. If a BB is shooting HE at you, he's a potato, and would be doing far better shooting AP. That's irrespective of what ship type is being shot at, unfortunately. Heck, certain cruiser and even DD lines and ships are primarily AP, too, if played correctly.

You'll also note that without fire, cruisers have a difficult time significantly damaging BBs, and DDs are practically ignorable.  Cruiser AP really only works up close (where you're in serious risk of deletion) and against the superstructure (though it tends to overpen), and their HE averages well under 1000 hp/shell damage.  DD AP and HE is really only useful against the superstructure, causes piddling amounts of damage, and even that quickly drops as damage saturation kicks in.  Torpedoes are much less of a threat than people like to claim, as it's become harder and harder to even score a hit with a torpedo over time.

Fire is BB's major weakness, and it's only a relatively small one. Even for CAs and DDs, Fire isn't a huge issue - direct damage is FAR more a concern for them.

Stuff may be on fire, but it's not doing a whole lot of damage for the most case. That damage counter may look evil, but it's an illusion - VERY rarely does fire exceed other types of damage caused, and that tends to be exclusive to a couple of CA and DD classes, not even entire national lines. 

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i can make an argument on battleships repair.

Repair is useful however does not help that much when your on fire for half the game. yes 30 second damage control and repair is good for usn ships however after the 30 seconds are up the ship is on fire again. so if you play a battleship i sadly say but prepare to have the fire alarm for a while.      as i keep saying im not proposing a nerf im only proposing damage mitigates and bonus depending on where the shell hits and the size of the shell. a cruiser should be able to fight battleships but right now a cruiser can easly win with a battleship while the battleship is struggling hitting the cruiser                  

over penetration flooding could give battleships a way to fight off cruisers that often win but then thats a nerf to dds... again

Edited by mous1

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Salt: F-ing fire! Repair! There. Now I'm not on fire. Wait, that Conqueror aiming at me? Badbadbadbad aaaaaaa he's shooting HE and... NOW I'M ON FIRE AGAIN AFTER HAVING JUST PUT THESE FIRES OUT. /endsalt.

In a more serious tone, the fire spam is really, really annoying. When I'm commanding my Yamato I feel like half my health vanishes from fire alone, and even with Basics of Survivability and Fire Prevention I feel like I catch on fire from even one DD shell hitting solid metal. My other battleships suffer similar fates. It's annoying enough to have to show everyone my broadside or eat several torpedoes from the wall of fish that just appeared out of nowhere, but now I get to be on fire 24/7 too. Something else I notice is that I seem to consistently get overpens on everything that's not another battleship. Even when I shoot a cruiser dead center broadside I get overpens instead of anything meaningful. It's frustrating. I know that I'm pretty bad, but even with all the supposed advantages and favoring that battleships seem to get it really does feel like the game is rigged against them from time to time.

If I load HE to deal damage to cruisers and Destroyers, I can barely do damage to battleships. If I load AP to deal damage to battleships, I deal scratch damage to cruisers and destroyers because of seemingly constant overpens. I know that part of the overpen problem is the fact that the Yamato's cannons overmatch a *lot* of the armor in the game, but I would kinda hope that smacking a destroyer with shells like this would cause at least *some* damage. I would assume that if such a hit were to occur in reality, the destroyer would be ripped in half, or something to that effect. From what I understand World of Warships (And other wargaming games) operates mostly on "Arcade Balance" so things might not always make realistic sense, but this is more than a little headache inducing.

I know it's mostly salt and bias, but it really does cause some headaches and frustration.

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i can agree with  you there   .however fire should not get removed  not saying you said it should but(as stated by so many people. this allows cruisers to fight battleships) but its pretty overboard and when somebody proposes to nerf the chances they get ganged by a bunch of cruiser players saying its fine. so im proposing a solid conclusion that would please both sides 

Edited by mous1

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7 minutes ago, mous1 said:

i can make an argument on battleships repair.

Repair is useful however does not help that much when your on fire for half the game. yes 30 second damage control and repair is good for usn ships however after the 30 seconds are up the ship is on fire again. so if you play a battleship i sadly say but prepare to have the fire alarm for a while.      as i keep saying im not proposing a nerf im only proposing damage mitigates and bonus depending on where the shell hits and the size of the shell. a cruiser should be able to fight battleships but right now a cruiser can easly win with a battleship while the battleship is struggling hitting the cruiser                  

over penetration flooding could give battleships a way to fight off cruisers that often win but then thats a nerf to dds... again

 

6 minutes ago, Super_Battleship_Yamato said:

Salt: F-ing fire! Repair! There. Now I'm not on fire. Wait, that Conqueror aiming at me? Badbadbadbad aaaaaaa he's shooting HE and... NOW I'M ON FIRE AGAIN AFTER HAVING JUST PUT THESE FIRES OUT. /endsalt.

In a more serious tone, the fire spam is really, really annoying. When I'm commanding my Yamato I feel like half my health vanishes from fire alone, and even with Basics of Survivability and Fire Prevention I feel like I catch on fire from even one DD shell hitting solid metal. My other battleships suffer similar fates. It's annoying enough to have to show everyone my broadside or eat several torpedoes from the wall of fish that just appeared out of nowhere, but now I get to be on fire 24/7 too. Something else I notice is that I seem to consistently get overpens on everything that's not another battleship. Even when I shoot a cruiser dead center broadside I get overpens instead of anything meaningful. It's frustrating. I know that I'm pretty bad, but even with all the supposed advantages and favoring that battleships seem to get it really does feel like the game is rigged against them from time to time.

If I load HE to deal damage to cruisers and Destroyers, I can barely do damage to battleships. If I load AP to deal damage to battleships, I deal scratch damage to cruisers and destroyers because of seemingly constant overpens. I know that part of the overpen problem is the fact that the Yamato's cannons overmatch a *lot* of the armor in the game, but I would kinda hope that smacking a destroyer with shells like this would cause at least *some* damage. I would assume that if such a hit were to occur in reality, the destroyer would be ripped in half, or something to that effect. From what I understand World of Warships (And other wargaming games) operates mostly on "Arcade Balance" so things might not always make realistic sense, but this is more than a little headache inducing.

I know it's mostly salt and bias, but it really does cause some headaches and frustration.

 

1 minute ago, mous1 said:

i can agree with  you there however fire should not get removed ( as stated by so many people. this allows cruisers to fight battleships) but its pretty overboard and when somebody proposes to nerf the chances they get ganged by a bunch of cruiser players saying its fine. so im proposing a solid conclusion that would please both sides 

In the current fire meta fire is the weapon and not a side effect of shell hits in the right places. So buff HE so it is like it is in WoT, the ammo you use when AP doesn't do the job instead of the ammo you use to start fires.

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3 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

 

 

In the current fire meta fire is the weapon and not a side effect of shell hits in the right places. So buff HE so it is like it is in WoT, the ammo you use when AP doesn't do the job instead of the ammo you use to start fires.

i know that he just starts fires but its not fun burning 24/7 as a battleship because of a cleveland or an atago im only proposing the side effects of burning depending on a few factors so fire would do more damage when it  starts the super on fire but less when it lights the bow on fire  

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Here's the thing:

On a BB, Fire can do no more than 60% of your total HP pool in damage. Period.  After that, damage saturation kicks in to such an extent that a "fire" can burn but does ZERO actual damage.  So repeated fires do less and less overall damage.

When fire is 100% healable, pretty much all BBs actually have a bare minimum of 150% of their starting HP pool to deal with.   So fire is really not the problem people think it is - it's just an ancillary damage method for CAs and DDs whose primary method of hurting BBs is mostly (to almost completely) ineffective.

13 hours ago, mous1 said:

i know that he just starts fires but its not fun burning 24/7 as a battleship because of a cleveland or an atago im only proposing the side effects of burning depending on a few factors so fire would do more damage when it  starts the super on fire but less when it lights the bow on fire  

So what?  It's not "fun" if you're in a CA that happens to take a LOLCitadel when you're stern on at 15km, but it happens all the time. It's not "fun" that BB AP can cause over a third of a DD's maximum HP pool IN A SINGLE SHELL HIT.  It's not "fun" that BBs walk around with massive automatic damage guns strapped to both sides that can kill or disable opponents without any user action whatsoever.   BB drivers seem to think they're entitled to all the benefits, and none of the disadvantages that every single other class of ship has to contend with.

Learn to deal with game mechanics that don't necessarily favor your ship every single time, especially ones which are more inconvenience than actual threats. Fire is a reward for good play on the opponent's part, and a penalty for poor play (for whatever reason) on yours. 

Nerfing fire damage does nothing more than increase the dominance of the BB over everything. BBs are ALREADY significantly the most powerful overall ship in the game, and certainly don't need any more buffs. 

Again, the major issue here is that RN BB HE is broken, and that's causing other problems in the game. It's not the fire mechanic, it's RN BB HE fires. Nerf the RN BB HE down by removing the built-in IFHE pen bump, no more than 30% fire chance, and stop having it cause so much modules damage.  And then everything goes back to just fine.

 

 

Edited by EAnybody

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