Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
NoZoupForYou

Musashi Final Form Commentary - She's a Must Buy now...

213 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1,826
[RKLES]
Members
8,863 posts
10,828 battles
1 minute ago, thegamefilmguruman said:

Ah, much clearer.  The secondaries aren't terrible, but I wish they were better (4x3 155mm+6x2 127mm).  If they'd just change the 155's to fire HE it might be worth the terrible AA (only 120ish DPS total).

This is exactly what I have mentioned in a few threads since the HE is what brings those secondary turrets which are Mogami main turrets to life. Now of course they likely would never have Mogami's gun range or fully broadside power, but they still would level the playing field just enough to give the enemy ships closing in close range a little something to think about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,658
[BRZKR]
WoWS Community Contributors
1,569 posts
5,254 battles
18 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

May I suggest you step out of Forum and into the  games happening today since it is part of a long weekend still ... 

Lol you have to be ready to work as a team and be supportive when you get handed teams that are like that, but on the other hand you also need to be ready to have your team run off in all directions and leave you all alone as soon as any kind of enemy forces are spotted lol.

The game play in this video was from this weekend in an unbuffed version of Musashi.  The worst round I had was in Tears.  I got separated and a Khab, Kiev and other DDs focused me down.  I would have sank even had I been in a Yammie.  I would have sunk had I been in a Monty.  Your team can run and leave you in any ship.  Even the T8 Bismarck’s that wind up in T10 rounds.  Or the Alabama’s that players still use...

Edited by NoZoupForYou

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
511
[MIA-P]
Members
2,150 posts
10,713 battles
1 minute ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

This is exactly what I have mentioned in a few threads since the HE is what brings those secondary turrets which are Mogami main turrets to life. Now of course they likely would never have Mogami's gun range or fully broadside power, but they still would level the playing field just enough to give the enemy ships closing in close range a little something to think about.

Honestly, I'd sacrifice another 0.1 of sigma on Musashi if it would allow an HE secondary build of sillyness.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,826
[RKLES]
Members
8,863 posts
10,828 battles
8 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

The game play in this video was from this weekend in an unbuffed version of Musashi.  The worst round I had was in Tears.  I got separated and a Khab, Kiev and other DDs focused me down.  I would have sank even had I been in a Yammie.  I would have sunk had I been in a Monty.  Your team can run and leave you in any ship.  Even the T8 Bismarck’s that wind up in T10 rounds.  Or the Alabama’s that players still use...

Lol guess it was just Ranked that was bad today? :Smile_teethhappy:

Little surprised there was not a feeding frenzy over your Musashi with those defenses and that HP pool. Lol maybe they have not yet realized that dinner is served and instead they see Yamato's sister ship and think it's just as mighty?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
444
[YAN]
Members
1,648 posts
7,944 battles
41 minutes ago, Fog_Battleship_NCarolina said:

It's not the issue of it being weak. It's the fact you're bring a gimped t10 at t9 to t10 games.

And that "Gimped T10" occupies a position of a T9 battleship in a T10 team, technically its the opposite of what you're suggesting, Instead of trading a T10 for a nerfed T10, you're trading a T9 for a T10.

MM doest think "that's a Musashi, better place it vs. a Montana lul" it thinks "T9 Battleship vs. T9 battleship".

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
444
[YAN]
Members
1,648 posts
7,944 battles
19 minutes ago, thegamefilmguruman said:

Honestly, I'd sacrifice another 0.1 of sigma on Musashi if it would allow an HE secondary build of sillyness.  

I would rather take the 0.1sigma, tbh.

After 1.7 and less, shots tend to lose far more consistency from my experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
511
[MIA-P]
Members
2,150 posts
10,713 battles
1 minute ago, Akeno017 said:

I would rather take the 0.1sigma, tbh.

After 1.7 and less, shots tend to lose far more consistency from my experience.

Here's an interesting thought off that-what if like with Harekaze's gun modules you could chose between having better secondaries or better gun sigma or the like on a premium ship?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
525
[WOLFD]
[WOLFD]
Beta Testers
5,062 posts
1,501 battles
Just now, thegamefilmguruman said:

Here's an interesting thought off that-what if like with Harekaze's gun modules you could chose between having better secondaries or better gun sigma or the like on a premium ship?

 

Thats wouldn't be a bad idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
444
[YAN]
Members
1,648 posts
7,944 battles
1 minute ago, thegamefilmguruman said:

Here's an interesting thought off that-what if like with Harekaze's gun modules you could chose between having better secondaries or better gun sigma or the like on a premium ship?

I actually like this idea, but with Musashi in her finalized form, it probably wont be realised.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,261 posts
5 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

The article that @thegamefilmguruman provided will give you an idea of what sigma does.  The missing piece of the puzzle is that each battleship has very different dispersion patterns.  So while sigma will dictate where it's more likely that shells will land within a dispersion field, without knowing what the dispersion field looks like going by sigma alone is pretty useless.  Defining ship accuracy is measured upon four factors:

  • Sigma -- This is a known stat.  Thanks to datamining, we know this stats for every ship in the game.
  • Horizontal Dispersion -- This is a known stat.  It's published in port.  This defines how far to the left or right a shell will stray. This scales linearly with range and for battleship lines, (almost) all ships will conform to the same horizontal dispersion pattern within a given tech tree.  So (almost) all Japanese battleships will have the same horizontal dispersion at 5km / 10km / 15km.  This can be modified by dispersion reducing upgrades Aiming Systems Modification 0, Aiming System Modification 1 and Artillery Plotting Room Modification 2.  This can be increased by shooting at targets wearing disruption camouflage.
  • Vertical Dispersion -- This is an unknown stat.  There have been efforts to datamine it (unsuccessfully).  This defines how far forward and backwards a shell will stray.  It is largely tied to muzzle velocity (a known stat) and shell drag (a known stat).  The faster a shell is traveling, the larger the vertical dispersion field.  This value combined with Horizontal Dispersion, will define the dispersion area at a given range.
  • Shell Fall Angle -- Tied to vertical dispersion, the angle of a shell fall can affect how accurate a gun feels.  Compared to the other three, this is the most minor trait.  If a shell fall angle is shallow, even with a very large vertical dispersion field, it's possible for the shell to clip the target.  If the shell fall angle is very steep, then even a near miss on the vertical axis will ensure that shell does not clip the 'shadow' of the ship.

 

 

Aesis has values for Vertical Dispersion. Are those not accurate?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
322
[NUWES]
Members
2,051 posts
6,607 battles
3 minutes ago, Akeno017 said:

And that "Gimped T10" occupies a position of a T9 battleship in a T10 team, technically its the opposite of what you're suggesting, Instead of trading a T10 for a nerfed T10, you're trading a T9 for a T10.

MM doest think "that's a Musashi, better place it vs. a Montana lul" it thinks "T9 Battleship vs. T9 battleship".

Here's an analogy why I think Musashi isn't worth it. This is T10 Yamato:

Spoiler

See the source image

This is T9 Musashi:

Spoiler

See the source image

They look similar, they cost you almost the same in xp and are running on the same track against the same competition almost all the time. Why get the Musashi (Volkswagen) when the Porsche (Yamato) is better car in every situation that matters and the cost difference is minimal? The only real situation where the turbo beetle (Musashi) is better is that it gets to beat up on Toyota Corollas (T7) now and then. How is that good value unless you just have money to burn (free xp) and just want to have a beetle in your garage (to admire or give to your daughter or something)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,865
[NMKJT]
Beta Testers
22,177 posts
3,895 battles

I'm seeing more posts from the "somehow tier 7 ships who are already overmatched by 16 inch guns will be overmatched even harder by 18 inch guns" crowd.

 

Seriously Musashi holds little to no actual advantage over tier 7s that Tier 7s don't already encounter in Colorado, Nagato, North Carolina, Amagi, Iowa, Missouri, Izumo, or Frederich der Grosse. Tier 8+ ships already encounter these guns via Yamato.

 

The only thing she overmatches that isn't overmatched by 16 inch guns is, like... a narrow strip of deck on Myoko, and maybe 1 or 2 other things that are of little consequence and certainly don't lead to citadel pens as the "BUT THINK OF THE TIER 7S" crowd would have you believe.

Edited by AraAragami

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
511
[MIA-P]
Members
2,150 posts
10,713 battles
6 minutes ago, AraAragami said:

I'm seeing more posts from the "somehow tier 7 ships who are already overmatched by 16 inch guns will be overmatched even harder by 18 inch guns" crowd.

 

Seriously Musashi holds little to no actual advantage over tier 7s that Tier 7s don't already encounter in Colorado, Nagato, North Carolina, Amagi, Iowa, Missouri, Izumo, or Frederich der Grosse. Tier 8+ ships already encounter these guns via Yamato.

 

The only thing she overmatches that isn't overmatched by 16 inch guns is, like... a narrow strip of deck on Myoko, and maybe 1 or 2 other things that are of little consequence and certainly don't lead to citadel pens as the "BUT THINK OF THE TIER 7S" crowd would have you believe.

The 18.1's still have better penetration than the 16" on Iowa/Missouri (next best T9 gun pen) as far as I'm aware.  Plus they do more damage per hit.
5u42b9p.pngzhe1kS9.png

Edited by thegamefilmguruman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,658
[BRZKR]
WoWS Community Contributors
1,569 posts
5,254 battles
13 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

Here's an analogy why I think Musashi isn't worth it. This is T10 Yamato:

  Hide contents

See the source image

This is T9 Musashi:

  Hide contents

See the source image

They look similar, they cost you almost the same in xp and are running on the same track against the same competition almost all the time. Why get the Musashi (Volkswagen) when the Porsche (Yamato) is better car in every situation that matters and the cost difference is minimal? The only real situation where the turbo beetle (Musashi) is better is that it gets to beat up on Toyota Corollas (T7) now and then. How is that good value unless you just have money to burn (free xp) and just want to have a beetle in your garage (to admire or give to your daughter or something)?

Let me use this throw your analogy upside down...  the Musashi is a Porsche in T9.  You are looking at both ships as if they are t10.  Why play any T9 ship then and just FXP to the t10?  Why buy a Tirpitz if it sees t10?  Why buy an Alabama?  

Some players don’t like T10s and the extreme cost to run them, such as the Yammie.  Plus in a Musashi, you are taking a T10 slot away from the enemy team by forcing them to take a T9 against your T10 beetle.

Edited by NoZoupForYou

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,092
[NGAGE]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
2,933 posts
10,543 battles
31 minutes ago, Akeno017 said:

And that "Gimped T10" occupies a position of a T9 battleship in a T10 team, technically its the opposite of what you're suggesting, Instead of trading a T10 for a nerfed T10, you're trading a T9 for a T10.

MM doest think "that's a Musashi, better place it vs. a Montana lul" it thinks "T9 Battleship vs. T9 battleship".

It's a question of whether or not the ship is worth it. Would you rather be a ungimped Yamato, or a gimped yamato?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,658
[BRZKR]
WoWS Community Contributors
1,569 posts
5,254 battles
2 minutes ago, Fog_Battleship_NCarolina said:

It's a question of whether or not the ship is worth it. Would you rather be a ungimped Yamato, or a gimped yamato?

The gimped Yammie will earn you more credits, XP and FXP than a Yamato while possibly gaining favorable MM.  Yes.  I have no reservations about it.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
322
[NUWES]
Members
2,051 posts
6,607 battles
20 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

Let me use this throw your analogy upside down...  the Musashi is a Porsche in T9.  You are looking at both ships as if they are t10.  Why play any T9 ship then and just FXP to the t10?  Why by a Tirpitz if it sees t10?  Why buy an Alabama?  

Some players don’t like T10s and the extreme cost to run them, such as the Yammie.  Plus in a Musashi, you are taking a T10 slot away from the enemy team by forcing them to take a T9 against your T10 beetle.

 Musashi is literally a nerfed Yamato. If it did anything differently and interestingly over Yamato I would consider it. All it has is a worse sigma (which I agree isn't the enormous issue that people make it out to be), worse AA (also not huge), and rides higher in the water (again not enormous). It has no playstyle difference over the ship just above it that has none of the flaws.  I'm not so much harping on the flaws themselves, it's just that the flaws are the ONLY noticeable difference between the ships other than appearance. Tirpitz has its torpedoes and plays like a giant, tougher KM CA rather than like the other KM battleline units. Alabama is much more agile than NC and with its better torp defense it is a better forward attacker. Missouri is noticeably different than Iowa due to its radar and better forward armored bulkhead. It's a fast attacker and it is vastly different than Montana which is a battleline slugger. Even Kii and Mutsu have some playstyle differences to justify them. Musashi is like Ashitaka. It's the same ship as a higher tier line ship ... but worse, and with nothing notable about it except that it is worse, so it can be downtiered.  Ashitaka at least has a slight  purpose though when T7 ranked comes back. There is nothing special about T9 as opposed to T10 other than the operating costs to warrant the nerfing. They should've just had it be an alternate hull for T10 Yamato that people could buy with (a lot of) free xp. There is no real point to T9 Musashi over Yamato other than to have one. It's exactly the same ship and playstyle ... but nerfed. Just get the unnerfed version. If they did ANYTHING to it to make it a bit different than Yamato ... make it a secondary platform like with the French ... anything ... I would like it more. I could even live with the main battery reload going back to 35sec. 

Edited by Tzarevitch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,865
[NMKJT]
Beta Testers
22,177 posts
3,895 battles
31 minutes ago, thegamefilmguruman said:

The 18.1's still have better penetration than the 16" on Iowa/Missouri (next best T9 gun pen) as far as I'm aware.  Plus they do more damage per hit.

Be that as it may, I'm specifically talking about the Overmatch mechanic. Armor that isn't overmatched can be angled to avoid penetration entirely via the Autobounce mechanic.

 

Overmatch is the only thing this particular crowd cares about, and in the realm of Overmatch, there is very little difference between these two guns vs  specifically Tier 7 targets.

10 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

They should've just had it be an alternate hull for T10 Yamato that people could buy with (a lot of) free xp. 

I remember suggesting almost exactly this before. In my case it was an alternate hull you could buy with doubloons, because it also changed the name plate to MUSASHI instead of YAMATO.

So it'd be kind of like buying a premium camo, but changes the functionality of the ship by changing its secondary battery arrangement, and the nameplate change serves to alert other players of what "spec" the ship is in.

 

I guess that was too clever and didn't cause enough drama for WG to be interested.

Edited by AraAragami

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
511
[MIA-P]
Members
2,150 posts
10,713 battles
1 minute ago, AraAragami said:

Be that as it may, I'm specifically talking about the Overmatch mechanic. Armor that isn't overmatched can be angled to avoid penetration entirely via the Autobounce mechanic.

 

Overmatch is the only thing this particular crowd cares about, and in the realm of Overmatch, there is very little difference between these two guns vs  specifically Tier 7 targets.

True, vs T7 they won't do much overmatch-wise that 16" won't. It's the ability to overmatch T8-10 with a T9 that people might care about.  The T7s are just icing on the cake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,865
[NMKJT]
Beta Testers
22,177 posts
3,895 battles
1 minute ago, thegamefilmguruman said:

True, vs T7 they won't do much overmatch-wise that 16" won't. It's the ability to overmatch T8-10 with a T9 that people might care about.  The T7s are just icing on the cake.

But in the realm of Tier 8-9-10, 46cm guns are nothing new, as they already encounter them via Yamato.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
511
[MIA-P]
Members
2,150 posts
10,713 battles
5 minutes ago, AraAragami said:

But in the realm of Tier 8-9-10, 46cm guns are nothing new, as they already encounter them via Yamato.

True. But again, not on a T9. Yamato is T10. The guns aren't unheard of, just unheard of on a T9.  Having a T9 that can do almost all of the things a T10 can without  being a T10 and having the utility of being a premium is what most people who buy this ship will buy it for (minus the collectors).  

Edited by thegamefilmguruman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
576
[PLPTV]
Members
1,457 posts
9,077 battles
8 hours ago, NoZoupForYou said:

Yes, yes...  we all now know about the issue with the Musashi and CCs.  I might be one of the few that doesn't really care.

Honestly, as CCs, we all have the chance to ask questions and gain information in our own CC discord chat.  The more we hang around or take part, the more we know.  I've never felt that we have been given a lack of info by WG.  Last minute changes have always happened.  In this case the XP wasn't a change even.   Someone ran with wrong unconfirmed info.  It's that simple.  But I digress.  

This video is merely my views on Musashi as she will be released and my belief that this iteration is worth it.  The one before wasn't.

 

 

I highly disagree with many things you mentioned, but everybody has their own opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,865
[NMKJT]
Beta Testers
22,177 posts
3,895 battles
3 minutes ago, thegamefilmguruman said:

True. But again, not on a T9. Yamato is T10. The guns aren't unheard of, just unheard of on a T9.  Having a T9 that can do almost all of the things a T10 can without  being a T10 and having the utility of being a premium is what most people who buy this ship will buy it for (minus the collectors).  

We're talking about the impact the ship has on other ships in its tier range. And the fact that it is a tier 9 means its impact is ... remarkably, not as big as it's being made out to be. "Those guns, but on a tier 9!" is no different than "those guns, but on a tier 10" except that the tier 9 encounters tier 7 ships sometimes.

 

That's my point. The ship's impact is not as great as it's being made out to be. Yes, it will have an impact. Every new ship has an impact. But it is not going to suddenly make tier 7-8-9-10 unplayable because "OMG 46cm guns!"

 

Because T7 doesn't interact with 46cm guns in any meaningful way that's different from 16 inch/41cm guns they already encounter, and T8-9-10 already interacts with 46cm guns and have been balanced accordingly.

 

Complaining about encountering 46cm guns in tier 7 ships is much ado about nothing. Because an Iowa, North Carolina, or even Colorado can and will do the exact same things to a Myoko or Nagato that Musashi will be able to do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
511
[MIA-P]
Members
2,150 posts
10,713 battles
5 minutes ago, AraAragami said:

We're talking about the impact the ship has on other ships in its tier range. And the fact that it is a tier 9 means its impact is ... remarkably, not as big as it's being made out to be. "Those guns, but on a tier 9!" is no different than "those guns, but on a tier 10" except that the tier 9 encounters tier 7 ships sometimes.

 

That's my point. The ship's impact is not as great as it's being made out to be. Yes, it will have an impact. Every new ship has an impact. But it is not going to suddenly make tier 7-8-9-10 unplayable because "OMG 46cm guns!"

 

Because T7 doesn't interact with 46cm guns in any meaningful way that's different from 16 inch/41cm guns they already encounter, and T8-9-10 already interacts with 46cm guns and have been balanced accordingly.

 

Complaining about encountering 46cm guns in tier 7 ships is much ado about nothing. Because an Iowa, North Carolina, or even Colorado can and will do the exact same things to a Myoko or Nagato that Musashi will be able to do.

You're right about this for the most part (besides raw penetration, but we're discussing overmatch). The real losers here are not the T7's.  They're the T8's. T8's do see T10, yes, but not nearly as often as they see T9's.  And overmatch does matter on T8's. You're right that it won't affect T7.  T8 is who will get hurt most, but nobody realized because of "those poor T7s." And even they won't suffer that much.

Edited by thegamefilmguruman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,865
[NMKJT]
Beta Testers
22,177 posts
3,895 battles
2 minutes ago, thegamefilmguruman said:

You're right about this for the most part (besides raw penetration, but we're discussing overmatch). The real losers here are not the T7's.  They're the T8's. T8's do see T10, yes, but not nearly as often as they see T9's.  And overmatch does matter on T8's. You're right that it won't affect T7.  T8 is who will get hurt most, but nobody realized because of "those poor T7s." And even they won't suffer that much.

I do forsee a tier 8 impact, but not enough that it'd be unplayable. Considering how often my tier 8s get dumped into T10. I don't know where you get the "not nearly as often as T9" thing from, because that doesn't line up with my experience.

Edited by AraAragami

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×