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XX_Emeraldking_XX

Germany still makes bad ships

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16 minutes ago, Aristotle83 said:

This is ridiculous.

German battleship/crusier positives

1)Um, while Jutland was a lost cause due to numbers, the German BC's took out a 3 British BC's, almost 4 and beat up the state of the art QE's pretty bad at the cost of a pre dreadnought and a battlecruiser. Bayern and Baden weren't there the Germans had not one ship at Jutland with more than 12 inch guns, most of the UK capital ships had 13.5 inch guns or more. 

2)Bismarck sunk Hood and might have sunk POW if allowed to follow. Bismarck also had no steering when she got attacked. Not saying she would beat Rodney and KGV for sure but it's a possibility and it's a near certainty she would have done at least somewhat better. Rodney had better guns(but was twenty years old) than Bismarck, KGV had weaker ones, and they had two cruisers in support things looked good but without her steering knocked out Bismarck could have escaped and it is likely(based on DS) she could have taken out at least one, we don't know. What we do know is that Bismarck took more than 400 hits including many from 16 inch guns over the course of several hours and while clearly mortally wounded(not giving any credence to the "wahh she was scuttled, German engineering is unsinkable, wahhh" crowd) was still mostly afloat at the end of that barrage and had she been able to aim properly and fire back would have been capable of giving them a hell of fight. Not saying the ship was an unsinkable death machine those of us who play her and Tirp in WOWS know she wasn't but she took a really really heavy beating and did pretty well as a punching bag. No shame in sinking to the bottom of the Atlantic after getting hit 400 times. 

German battleship/cruiser negatives

1)At Jutland they lost a pre dreadnought and a battlecruiser(which did not blow up in spectacular fashion).

2)Scharnhorst got outgunned by DOY. When a 14 inch battleship goes up against an 11 incher(who doesn't have THAT much of a speed advantage) what do you expect to happen? 

3)Gneisenau and Tirpitz got knocked out by aircraft(and Gneisenau wasn't sunk until she was out of service she was badly damaged). Yamato got knocked out by aircraft, aircraft are what made the battleship obsolete, this isn't exactly a point of shame. Was there a battleship constructed that enough torpedos couldn't sink. Tirpitz proved pretty durable against CV's but the British were just really really persistent. 

 

We're talking about WWII and inter-war era Germany, WWI era Germany made very fine ships while the Kriegsmarine....eh....well yeah. The Design Boards got gutted by the post WWI treaties and filled with useless idiots and blithering soldiers/politicians. 

 

2.) Bismarck sinking PoW is debatable however if you are going to call Bismarck's rudder a lucky shot, Hood's magazine was one as well. Bismarck taking that much fire is due to her turtleback and the damage to the ship/sea state both working against the British shells. Bismarck's turtleback did exactly what it was designed to do in the exact situation it was designed to do it in, not exactly what I'd call amazing design but it did it's job well enough. Literally any other ship similar to Bismarck in her situation would have performed similarly, very poorly. 

 

When it comes down to it, Bismarck and Tirpitz were perfectly fine ships for the tasks they were designed for however, they weren't exactly what I would call the pinnacle of battleship design. As with most German ships of the time period, they were riddled with questionable choices thanks to the meme levels of incompetency displayed by the leaders and designers of the time. The myths of Wehraboo invincibility are thankfully starting to clear away so people can objectively look at the ships themselves. 

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On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 7:19 AM, XX_Emeraldking_XX said:

Ok, so I meant to say something else. Almost all German ships had some design flaw. Bismarck got hit by one torpedo at the back which killed her propulsion and steering.

Bismarck was a very hard ship to sink, however an easy ship to disable. She, excuse me, He was a brand new ship with a brand new crew on her first sortie. Bismarck had a damn good Captain, but a Stubborn old [edited]Admiral on board that wasn't per se a bad Admiral, but He, not the Captain made only a few errors that doomed the ship. As far as the design though. If the Germans would have built the Battleships with 4 screws and engine rooms they would have had better ships. They took less crew, and less fuel to run and weighed less due to the three room and screw design though. The AA fire control and layout were designed for fast aircraft and didn't work well against the antiquated Sword fish, let alone with a brand new crew manning them in a real fight scenario for the first time. The radar sets were still primitive as compared to sets even a couple years later. Saying that the Bismarck was a poor design is not an accurate statement in my mind. It was based from WW1 Battleships designs and layouts. It could have had its communications equipment under the armor belt instead of up high. Ton for Ton though I think Bismarck and Tirpitz had an even chance against Iowa in her first launch condition. The U.S. just had the benefit of much better radars latter in the war. 

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On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 9:24 AM, Aristotle83 said:

Germany made fine ships. Like Senior said earlier the German battlecruisers performed far better than their British counterparts, sinking three British battlecruisers and taking damage from the 4/5's of the QE class. Biggest knock against them was numbers and no slight advantage in quality was making up for that.

In WWII, the Germans made great ships. The Bismarck not only sunk the Hood but probably would have sunk the Prince of Wales within the hour if the commander hadn't been so cautious. Both Bismarck and Tirpitz were superior to anything the British had and the demise of both ships was caused by airpower. Not saying Bismarck would have emerged from that battle victorious if her steering wasn't knocked out, she was considerably outnumbered but when she was sunk she was basically just a sitting target that wasn't a fair fight.   

I really wish that we could trade the hood for the Rodney, Gad that and Nelson have to be the 2 ugliest Battleships ever built. At least England has that claim to fame. 

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On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 11:52 PM, TornadoADV said:

Steering with just the screws? Oh man, that'd take forever.

Its way easier with 4 than 3 though, and they had a rudder that was jammed at an angle. if they could have blown it off the remaining rudder would have steered the ship fine enough to get them into Luftwaffe controlled airspace and to Brest. Then they would have probably been bombed several times there. 

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4 minutes ago, Dunk_Master_Flex said:

 

We're talking about WWII and inter-war era Germany, WWI era Germany made very fine ships while the Kriegsmarine....eh....well yeah. The Design Boards got gutted by the post WWI treaties and filled with useless idiots and blithering soldiers/politicians. 

 

2.) Bismarck sinking PoW is debatable however if you are going to call Bismarck's rudder a lucky shot, Hood's magazine was one as well. Bismarck taking that much fire is due to her turtleback and the damage to the ship/sea state both working against the British shells. Bismarck's turtleback did exactly what it was designed to do in the exact situation it was designed to do it in, not exactly what I'd call amazing design but it did it's job well enough. Literally any other ship similar to Bismarck in her situation would have performed similarly, very poorly. 

 

When it comes down to it, Bismarck and Tirpitz were perfectly fine ships for the tasks they were designed for however, they weren't exactly what I would call the pinnacle of battleship design. As with most German ships of the time period, they were riddled with questionable choices thanks to the meme levels of incompetency displayed by the leaders and designers of the time. The myths of Wehraboo invincibility are thankfully starting to clear away so people can objectively look at the ships themselves. 

I'm not going to call it a lucky shot, I think that shot deserves credit for sinking the ship rather than KGV or Rodney. 

Also didn't call them the pinnacle of battleship design, can only really compare them to the ships they opposed(and if I added the combat with Russia it looks even better but I didn't). Richelieu and the Italian BB's design wise might have been better(though the Italians didn't sink any UK capital shots in a few chances). Can't compare them to the best Japanese or American battleships beyond hypothetical because, well they didn't fight. From the game also Bismarck is a T8 and every capital ship she fought was a T7 and I think that's appropriate while she's better than those ships probably she probably doesn't look so good next to the advanced ships. But the thread is about Germany making bad ships and the evidence says Germany might not make as many ships as the UK or the USA, they didn't make the best ships ever(Japan probably did), but their ships weren't bad and their ships performed pretty darn well. 

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9 minutes ago, LL_JuneBug said:

Bismarck was a very hard ship to sink, however an easy ship to disable. She, excuse me, He was a brand new ship with a brand new crew on her first sortie. Bismarck had a damn good Captain, but a Stubborn old [edited]Admiral on board that wasn't per se a bad Admiral, but He, not the Captain made only a few errors that doomed the ship. As far as the design though. If the Germans would have built the Battleships with 4 screws and engine rooms they would have had better ships. They took less crew, and less fuel to run and weighed less due to the three room and screw design though. The AA fire control and layout were designed for fast aircraft and didn't work well against the antiquated Sword fish, let alone with a brand new crew manning them in a real fight scenario for the first time. The radar sets were still primitive as compared to sets even a couple years later. Saying that the Bismarck was a poor design is not an accurate statement in my mind. It was based from WW1 Battleships designs and layouts. It could have had its communications equipment under the armor belt instead of up high. Ton for Ton though I think Bismarck and Tirpitz had an even chance against Iowa in her first launch condition. The U.S. just had the benefit of much better radars latter in the war. 

 

Uhh, how do you know Ernst Lindemann was a "damn good Captain"?  The Bismarck was his first ship, and her first mission ended in disaster.

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5 minutes ago, LL_JuneBug said:

I really wish that we could trade the hood for the Rodney, Gad that and Nelson have to be the 2 ugliest Battleships ever built. At least England has that claim to fame. 

Do you mean in the game or at the bottom of the ocean? 

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On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 3:50 AM, Sventex said:

Weird, that _RC1138 guy said he was a nautical engineer, and he said most of the steering power of a ship comes from the screws.  I mentioned that I read somewhere that the Yamato did a test in an attempt to replicate what happened to the Bismarck, and found that if the ship had jammed it's main rudder, the auxiliary rudder and the screws could not overpower the turn. (I cannot recall where I read this though) He never replied to that, so I'm not entirely sure what to believe anymore.

 

I think you are in error good sir, but ill look also. I don't think the rudder was jammed into the center screw, i think it was jammed into the starboard screw. The other two screws rotate the same direction and Bismarck could only go in a big circle at that point. 

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2 minutes ago, Sventex said:

Uhh, how do you know Ernst Lindemann was a "damn good Captain"?  The Bismarck was his first ship, and her first mission ended in disaster.

Maybe he wasn't, however men who served with him wrote about that he was a calm, and smart officer and his crew liked him. almost no one liked Lutjuns. 

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3 minutes ago, Aristotle83 said:

Do you mean in the game or at the bottom of the ocean? 

I mean historically. But that means that the men that were on the Hood wouldn't have died, and men on the Rodney would. I don't wish anyone dead, I just hat the Nelson class design. Please don't think that I want to wish people dead. 

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30 minutes ago, LL_JuneBug said:

Maybe he wasn't, however men who served with him wrote about that he was a calm, and smart officer and his crew liked him. almost no one liked Lutjuns. 

I think you have that backwards.  Lindermann was the ironfaced hardass, new to command and inexperienced.  After the Bismarck's rudder was hit, he donned a life jacket afterward which demoralized his crew.  Vice-Admiral Günter Lütjens on the other hand, was a naval legend, famous for sinking 22 British ships in 2 months.

Edited by Sventex

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3 minutes ago, LL_JuneBug said:

I think you are in error good sir, but ill look also. I don't think the rudder was jammed into the center screw, i think it was jammed into the starboard screw. The other two screws rotate the same direction and Bismarck could only go in a big circle at that point. 

 

She wasn't only limited to circling, she twice managed to hold a steady course (most notably during the night engagement with the destroyers). She just couldn't turn in the opposite direction.

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1 minute ago, Sventex said:

Uhh, how do you know Ernst Lindemann was a "damn good Captain"?  The Bismarck was his first ship, and her first mission ended in disaster.

If he'd gotten his way and had a little luck, it's not inconceivable he could have taken down half the RN capital ship force Likely, no but he really didn't do anything wrong and he almost got POW and didn't get her because he was under orders not to engage and POW was running away. Also the UK went on a fanatical hunt for him, what's he supposed to do?  He had to fight four capital ships and evade carrrier aircraft over the course of his first mission, not exactly like the Titanic, that's a pretty formidable set of obstacles he had there.  

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On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 10:44 AM, Lord_Slayer said:

 

I am assuming you mean that charges were on board somewhere and that a trained diver would place them during an emergency.

The way you phrased it put a mental image in my head of charges already being placed in the rudder shaft ready to go at the push of a button which makes no sense in a warship of the era.

No, they designed them to blow the rudder shaft right out of the bottom of the ship after Bismarck. Tirpitz was the first and I think only ship to get this done to her, but they were planning it on all the rest of the capitol ships.

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4 minutes ago, LL_JuneBug said:

I mean historically. But that means that the men that were on the Hood wouldn't have died, and men on the Rodney would. I don't wish anyone dead, I just hat the Nelson class design. Please don't think that I want to wish people dead. 

Oh agreed, I have the Hood and don't have the Nelson and despite people giving me advice to the contrary I'm happy I made the choice I did. Hood is a beautiful and powerful ship.

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4 minutes ago, Sventex said:

I think you have that backwards.  Lindermann was the ironfaced hardass, new to command and inexperienced.  After the Bismarck's rudder was hit, he donned a life jacket afterward which demoralized his crew.  Vice-Admiral Günter Lütjens on the otherhand, was a naval legend, famous for sinking many ships.

That's not how its portrayed on the movies and or documentaries.

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8 minutes ago, Aristotle83 said:

If he'd gotten his way and had a little luck, it's not inconceivable he could have taken down half the RN capital ship force Likely, no but he really didn't do anything wrong and he almost got POW and didn't get her because he was under orders not to engage and POW was running away. 

That doesn't speak towards being a good captain.  If he chased down PoW, he

 

8 minutes ago, Aristotle83 said:

 Also the UK went on a fanatical hunt for him, what's he supposed to do?  He had to fight four capital ships and evade carrrier aircraft over the course of his first mission, not exactly like the Titanic, that's a pretty formidable set of obstacles he had there.  

The same could be said of Admiral Günter Lütjens.  Why would the same circumstance make him a bad Admiral?

Edited by Sventex

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3 minutes ago, Aristotle83 said:

If he'd gotten his way and had a little luck, it's not inconceivable he could have taken down half the RN capital ship force Likely, no but he really didn't do anything wrong and he almost got POW and didn't get her because he was under orders not to engage and POW was running away. Also the UK went on a fanatical hunt for him, what's he supposed to do?  He had to fight four capital ships and evade carrrier aircraft over the course of his first mission, not exactly like the Titanic, that's a pretty formidable set of obstacles he had there.  

He would have got away if he didn't break radio silence. 

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3 minutes ago, dseehafer said:

 

She wasn't only limited to circling, she twice managed to hold a steady course (most notably during the night engagement with the destroyers). She just couldn't turn in the opposite direction.

From the game I think we know how much of a challenge simply not turning in one direction can be, especially when facing  two battleships and two cruisers. Really helps put this fight in perspective. Could some of us land hits in that scenario(in the game, not talking on an actual boat)? Yeah, depending on where everyone was, sure but I don't think aside from another lucky detonation there's that much more Bismarck can do. A lot of us would also end up getting pummeled to kingdom come. Imagine being in a ship that gets hit over 400 times where once your bar hits 0 the damage keeps coming?  

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5 minutes ago, LL_JuneBug said:

That's not how its portrayed on the movies and or documentaries.

Admiral Günter Lütjens was Jewish.  In Sink the Bismarck!, he's portrayed as a Nazi toady.  There's is no relation between the character and the real life Admiral.

 

Edited by Sventex

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Just now, Sventex said:

That doesn't speak towards being a good captain.  If he chased down PoW, he

 

The same could be said of Vice-Admiral Günter Lütjens.  Why would the same circumstance make him a bad Admiral?

I never said Lutjens was a bad Admiral, just stubborn and not well liked by the Bismarck crew. He did do well with the Scharny sisters. Its to bad they didn't have them with them on that sortie.

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2 minutes ago, Sventex said:

That doesn't speak towards being a good captain.  If he chased down PoW, he

 

The same could be said of Vice-Admiral Günter Lütjens.  Why would the same circumstance make him a bad Admiral?

Because he had a chance to sink a capital ship that was on the ropes and he insisted on following orders to the letter despite Lindermann begging to pursue. He also didn't want to fire on Hood and had to be peer pressured into it. If Prince of Wales sinks and they had hypothetically went home without going after the convoy, I can't imagine them losing their commands over the outcome, they would literally have become the most decorated battleship captains in history. So yes he's a bad admiral because he the sinking of Hood happened in spite of him. 

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2 minutes ago, Sventex said:

Vice-Admiral Günter Lütjens was Jewish.  In Sink the Bismarck!, he's portrayed as a Nazi toady.  There's is no relation between the character and the real life Admiral.

 

Yes, I would agree with that, Now watch Dogfights from History channel that is way more modern. It paints the picture that Lutjens made the mistakes, not Lindamen. I wasn't their. I only know what i have read and seen. Hell in the 1960 movie they make them look like locker room chums. It has been stated that Lutjens wouldn't let Bismarck fire at Hood and POW, and that Lideman had to step in and order the crew to defend the ship when is was obvious it was in danger.

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5 minutes ago, Aristotle83 said:

 If Prince of Wales sinks and they had hypothetically went home without going after the convoy, I can't imagine them losing their commands over the outcome

Hitler scrapped the fleet for less (see Battle of the Barents Sea).  The Admiral thought the idea of sending out a Battleship to sink convoys in an era of radar and aircraft was absurd, but since he was Fleet Commander, he had to make a go of it.

Edited by Sventex

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1 minute ago, Sventex said:

Hitler scrapped the fleet for less.

Hitler may have, He was an Idiot about the Navy, but he did know that 2 Battleships wasn't going to sin a war. He was Pissed and Disappointed that Graf Spee didn't sink Exeter though, so I think if they would have sunk POW and ran back the way they came. Germany would have been so exstatic that it would have been used for Propaganda and Bismark and Tirpits could have sortied later on.

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