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XX_Emeraldking_XX

Germany still makes bad ships

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Uh, Bismarck was not a bad ship, in fact she was the best that Germany had ever built until her sister.

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Saying Germany makes bad ships is completely off the rocker. 
SMS Derfflinger-class and SMS Konig-class battleships took incredible beatings at Jutland, and also dished it out hard to the Royal Navy. Derfflinger sank a few with her sisters and still made it home. It was by any measure a loss at Jutland, but merely because of sheer numbers for Britain and tactical defeat. To say the ships weren't well designed is poorly construed. 
Scharnhorst herself, although quite a wet ship, had incredible speed for her tonnage.  She and her sister gave the Glorious no time to escape, even her DD screen was helpless. 
During North Cape, she was close to 12km to Belfast and her group, and was able to easily accelerate to top speed after giving them a heavy hand and gain distance again. 
Duke of York was sub 11km when she opened fire, but Scharnhorst was able to return fire right back and then put nearly 10km between them easily by going right back to her top speed. 
Bismarck herself, the story is well known how hard it was to sink her. Much like Scharnhorst, it took battleships, heavy cruisers, and destroyers working together to sink her. 
Hipper was rammed by a destroyer at full speed and simply went home to repair. I could go on and on...

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Wouldn't have compared it to Bismarck, but ok. It's kind of sad how advanced modern navies can be and yet how incompetent the engineers are.

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39 minutes ago, Doomlock said:

Uh, Bismarck was not a bad ship, in fact she was the best that Germany had ever built until her sister.

I have to agree, and it is not like Zumwalt-class destroyer is anything to brag about for the USN.

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25 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

What was wrong with Bismarck? :Smile_amazed:

Ok, so I meant to say something else. Almost all German ships had some design flaw. Bismarck got hit by one torpedo at the back which killed her propulsion and steering.

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6 minutes ago, XX_Emeraldking_XX said:

Ok, so I meant to say something else. Almost all German ships had some design flaw. Bismarck got hit by one torpedo at the back which killed her propulsion and steering.

Actually, I think it only killed the steering. She was going in a big circle as I recall.

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13 minutes ago, XX_Emeraldking_XX said:

Ok, so I meant to say something else. Almost all German ships had some design flaw. Bismarck got hit by one torpedo at the back which killed her propulsion and steering.

That’s not a design flaw that could happen to pretty much any ship...

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13 minutes ago, XX_Emeraldking_XX said:

Almost all German ships had some design flaw.

Well almost ALL ships have had some design flaw.

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Just now, JohnPJones said:

That’s not a design flaw that could happen to pretty much any ship...

Yeah very true.

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1 hour ago, XX_Emeraldking_XX said:

Germany didn't make bad ships, they were just either poorly lead or poorly managed\supplied.

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10 minutes ago, jager_geist said:

Actually, I think it only killed the steering. She was going in a big circle as I recall.

Correct. Steering. Rudder jam.  Swordfish torp. Speed was cut and fuel oil contaminated earlier by water due to 2 of the 3 hits Prince of Wales got on her in the initial engagement. PoW did a pretty dang good job in spite of her serious turret malfunctions. Ended Bismarck's mission....then she was just trying to get home.

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2 hours ago, XX_Emeraldking_XX said:

 

 

At least the Germans don't bump into other ships in stupid circumstances.

Repeatedly.

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1 hour ago, Ace_04 said:

What was wrong with Bismarck? :Smile_amazed:

 

1 hour ago, JohnPJones said:

That’s not a design flaw that could happen to pretty much any ship...

The design flaw was the ship couldn't be steered with propulsion which after the lucky torp hit doomed the ship.

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

The design flaw was the ship couldn't be steered with propulsion which after the lucky torp hit doomed the ship.

 

Didn't the hit jammed propeller shafts too?

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5 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

Didn't the hit jammed propeller shafts too?

I think they got them turning again but may have been down one. Even being down one shaft they could have easily made Brest if they could have controlled the ship.

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15 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

Didn't the hit jammed propeller shafts too?

No the shafts were damaged but operational, the loss of steering is what doomed the Bismark.

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Germany made fine ships. Like Senior said earlier the German battlecruisers performed far better than their British counterparts, sinking three British battlecruisers and taking damage from the 4/5's of the QE class. Biggest knock against them was numbers and no slight advantage in quality was making up for that.

In WWII, the Germans made great ships. The Bismarck not only sunk the Hood but probably would have sunk the Prince of Wales within the hour if the commander hadn't been so cautious. Both Bismarck and Tirpitz were superior to anything the British had and the demise of both ships was caused by airpower. Not saying Bismarck would have emerged from that battle victorious if her steering wasn't knocked out, she was considerably outnumbered but when she was sunk she was basically just a sitting target that wasn't a fair fight.   

Edited by Aristotle83

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1 hour ago, Fog_Repair_Ship_Akashi said:

No the shafts were damaged but operational, the loss of steering is what doomed the Bismark.

Indeed.  Without the ability to counter steer with propellers versus the jammed rudders, her fate was sealed.

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1 minute ago, Ace_04 said:

Indeed.  Without the ability to counter steer with propellers versus the jammed rudders, her fate was sealed.

I know wasn't arguing that point, lack of redundancy doomed many a German ship in WW II. Bismarck, Scharnhorst, Tirpitz, Prinz Eugen (yes she didn't sink but almost did after getting her stern blasted off by a RN sub).

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10 hours ago, Ace_04 said:

What was wrong with Bismarck? :Smile_amazed:

They forgot to place explosive charges into the rudder.  Later German Battleship designs would incorporate this, but those H class designs were never built.

For H-41 "The rudder system was also designed with an explosive charge to detach the rudders in the event they became jammed" - Wikipedia

Edited by Sventex

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Steering with just the screws? Oh man, that'd take forever.

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