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Sventex

Deconstructing Dunkerque Guide

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Even since a certain reviewer posted his "Dunkerque - How To Deal With T8 MM" video, I've been itching to point out the flaws.  The Dunkerque is one of Flamu's least played ships and least favorite ships, and it show by how he offers advice that can even be considered dangerous.  So let's go through Flamu's lessons one by one and deconstruct his video.

"So of course, it's low caliber guns, umm, the damage is lower as well. -  This is no damage monster"

The Dunkerque is tied with the Fuso in having the fastest firing Battleship guns at tier 6.  The ship also sports so incredibly potent HE shells with tremendous muzzle velocity allowing long range targets to be hit with reliability (even broadside destroyers), and the all forward gun design and fast turret traverse ensures that the RPM will rarely be interrupted.  The guns only have low damage when you ram the ship into an island and are unable to target any ships like Flamu does here.

"A common mistake that many Dunkerque captains make is they think it is a Yamato, they think it is a North Carolina, they think it is a ship capable of parking nose-in duking it out.  Now the Dunkerque can't even do this against tier 6s."

"So your not going to be tanking anything in this thing"

Not counting CVs, only 10% of ships in the tier 6 - 8 matchmaking have guns that can overmatch the bow armor on the Dunkerque, to say the ship can't bow tank is a gross miscalculation.  Bow tanking is one of Dunkerque's greatest assets and Flamu here is needlessly throwing that asset away.  In the replay provided below, you can see that in a Tier 8 match, out of the 5 enemy Battleships, only one had the guns large enough to overmatch my Dunkerque's bow.  For Flamu to think that the ship can't even tank at tier 6 is beyond belief. Even against shells that can overmatch, going bow-on presents a far smaller profile that will ensure fewer shells will hit you, which is in essence providing protection.  Other Battleships will have to show some broadside in order to utilize their full firepower against you, offering a larger target and exposing all of the fire hardpoints of their ship.  Also cruisers and destroyers often will have their shells shatter against the bow at close range, which is still tanking.

"You'll notice I was angled, trying to eat it [15" shells] on my broadside armor"

Flamu's tactic here is dubious as he tries to present a larger target to his enemy (a Tirpitz in brawling range no less) and he ends up taking heavy damage for it.  You want the shells to miss entirely so charging in against a top tier German Battleship and angling was an extremely poor tactical decision.  Don't let the enemy play to their strengths, the Dunkerque has the speed to avoid these situations.

"One of the key points of this is keeping on the move.  -  How do you play it?  You keep on the move.  You have to keep on the move"

"One of my main lessons when playing the Dunkerque is never stop in the open.  Being caught in the open and sitting still is a death sentence"

This is one of the most questionable lessons that Flamu gives in his video.  The Dunkerque is a very large target with a vulnerable broadside, moving forward when bottom tier is offering the enemy a juicy target.  What you want to do in the Dunkerque is manage the enemy player's target priority.  If your sitting at long range, and the enemy Battleship has numerous ships at closer range shooting at it, it's going to prioritize them over you because they are a greater threat and offer more dps to them.  If your needlessly zipping around broadside at long-mid range, your going to present the enemy with a juicy DPS opportunity, and if you just charge in against tier 8 ships, your going to be outflanked and overpowered.  The Dunkerque's speed and mobility is best used in the end game, when most other ships are dead.  The Dunkerque is extremely dangerous against 90% of ships (in tier 6-8 MM) because they are incapable of overmatching her bow, which makes the ship one of the best carry Premium Battleships in the game and probably excellent practice for the Richelieu.

"It's better to ram into an island at full speed"

"Amusingly, one of the strengths of the ship, which is having all gun on the forward part of the ship, is actually a bit of a weakness."

This sounds like intentional user error.

"The secondaries have very awkward angles, you need to give far too much broadside to be able to efficiently use them.  The secondaries in general are not recommendable"

The Dunkerque has in effect, 2 Gearings strapped to the back of the ship with twelve 5" guns that can be used without the need to show any broadside.  It has been the mistake of many DD captains to try and attack a Dunkerque from behind, thinking that is the blind spot.  Note in my replay, that against the Loyang that attempted to attack me from behind, ended up sacrificing himself against my secondary guns in exchange for a single torpedo hit, my forward main battery was not needed.

"If you have the lowest AP damage, umm the lowest AP alpha, all of these things also having the same reload as the other ships, really isn't that much fun."

Flamu throughout his video complains about the Dunkerque AP shells several times, but he only ever uses those AP shells for 97% of the match.  He never connects the dots that maybe he shouldn't use AP, and he never discusses the power of the Dunkerque's HE shells in the entire video and end up throwing away another of the ship's greatest assets with it's high fire %.  Another problem with the Dunkerque's AP shell is that the tremendous muzzle velocity gives the shells the nasty habit of over-penetrating on fully broadside targets.  Reliability in damage comes from the Dunkerque's HE shells, even against enemy cruisers.  The AP shells require the enemy cruisers and even some battleships to angle in order for their armor to "catch" the AP shells, which means only using AP for select situations.

"I do run concealment expert on this ship, and that ability to disengage is so-so important on this ship"

Flamu yoloed right into the enemy and was never in a position for his concealment expert skill to help him disengage, so he effectively wasted 4 points on his captain.  The Dunkerque strength comes from it's ability to maintain maximum RPM from it's main battery, which would be wasting another asset of the ship by trying to conceal this ship that can be spotted from the Andromeda Galaxy. (credit to Nozoupforyou for that analogy)  By the 6:30 mark of his video, he's already 10km away from an enemy Battleship, concealment expert is worthless when yoloing.

"The Scharnhorst, I play it very similarly"

This is where the biggest error in his match, twice in his showcase battle, Flamu goes and brawls with 2 separate Tirpitz.  One of which actually kills him after he tells his team "Don't die, and we win".  I cannot stress enough that the Dunkerque is not a German Battleship, it does not brawl well with other German Battleships.  Do not play to the enemies strengths.  The Dunkerque high velocity shells enable it to effectively target ships at long range, so it becomes important when bottom tier to not charge at the top tier Battleships.

 

This is how to play the Dunkerque in T8 MM.

 

Flamu's advice is to always keep moving, that "being caught in the open and sitting still is a death sentence", but note how I do not stray far from my spawn point in the first 10 minutes of the match.  I operate out in the open, but I keep a healthy distance away from the enemy to ensure I am never outflanked.  Anyone whose played a RN BB knows that HE is best employed at mid-range, and that it's important to manage the distance between you and the enemy fleet.  Even at bottom tier,  I'm causing considerable damage by sitting back while also disrupting the enemies attempt to take the caps and setting fires.  It's only at the halfway point, where the team if outnumbered 6:3 and the caps are in danger that I put the Dunkerque's speed to use.  At this point, the enemy team no longer have any ships that can overmatch my bow, and thus the Dunkerque can play to it's own strengths and have unfair fights with the other ships, picking them off one by one and racking up the metals.  That's my advice for T8 battles with the Dunkerque, wait it out, let the higher tier ships duke it out with each other until they've destroyed each other, then move in to wreak havoc.  The Dunkerque is very strong against Destroyers and Cruisers at any tier, and will earn bonus points of sinking these higher tier ships, so you want to give yourself the best possible chance at taking them out.  So don't go full potato and brawl with a bunch of Tirpitzs.

Edited by Sventex
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For crying out loud, you got one thread on this topic closed and locked by the forum mods.  You going for a second one?

 

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17 minutes ago, Crucis said:

For crying out loud, you got one thread on this topic closed and locked by the forum mods.  You going for a second one?

 

The mod was complaining about the responses, but I still feel the Dunkerque information is still important, and the Battleship forum is less rowdy.

Edited by Sventex

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I agree with the OP remaking this topic, alternative opinions and intelligent criticisms of reviews by persons of interest should be welcomed, Flamu isn't a Saint and surely does not need white knights to leap to his defence with non constructive troll camping and crap posting. The fault really is on those who respond to this topic with deliberate attempts to shut discussion down and forcing a thread lock. 

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Well, I think the response was something less than civilized, so it's a justified effort to try again for a better crowd.

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I didn't post in the first thread, as it went downhill fast...but the original post has many good points, but I think we can all agree the Dunk has a "different" play style, and that just doesn't jive with everybody. 

Me? I didn't buy her at first, mostly because of the reviews. 

But now I love her, even if I sometimes get carried away, and end up asking to much of her. You CAN bow tank, brawl etc with half the red IF something like a Mustu isn't in the fight. If your lucky enough to be top Tier, look out. 

1lDonKA.jpg

 

That game I used mostly AP, but as always I was ready to switch ammo at any second... I don't have "expert loader" on my Captain, but maybe I should... 

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As the first person to respond on the first thread, the reason it went downhill so fast is because Flamu himself showed up and stat-shamed Sventex and trolled/ranted how forumers are idiots instead of offering a eloquent response. From there it degraded real fast as people showed up, other well known youtubers joined in (I remember Arlios being there), and then it naturally got locked.

Also, Sventex, props for the less provocative title that is less likely to draw You-Know-Who himself here to derail the thread like last time :Smile_Default:

To demonstrate the proper way to critique so hopefully this doesn't go the same way as the last one, I'll offer my own anecdotal evidence. Now, I'm not the Dunkerque expert, we've all had different experiences, so maybe I can offer something. To prevent having to constantly scroll down and up again, I'll simply add my thoughts on each after Sventex's opinion.

Key:

Italics - Flamu

Bold - Sventex

Underlined - Darya (me)


"So of course, it's low caliber guns, umm, the damage is lower as well. -  This is no damage monster"

The Dunkerque is tied with the Fuso in having the fastest firing Battleship guns at tier 6.  The ship also sports so incredibly potent HE shells with tremendous muzzle velocity allowing long range targets to be hit with reliability (even broadside destroyers), and the all forward gun design and fast turret traverse ensures that the RPM will rarely be interrupted.  The guns only have low damage when you ram the ship into an island and are unable to target any ships like Flamu does here.

With all its guns at the front and a massive citadel, getting damage in the Dunkerque is even more reliant on proper positioning so as to not get wrecked early. It doesn't have the same alpha strike ability as something like New Mexico or Fuso. It's a battlecruiser somewhere between Moskva and a true battleship. You work up your damage with proper use of both shell types depending on situation. If you play it cautiously, you can rack up stupid damage numbers. It just doesn't happen instantly unless the red cruisers are willing and stupid.

"A common mistake that many Dunkerque captains make is they think it is a Yamato, they think it is a North Carolina, they think it is a ship capable of parking nose-in duking it out.  Now the Dunkerque can't even do this against tier 6s."

"So your not going to be tanking anything in this thing"

Not counting CVs, only 10% of ships in the tier 6 - 8 matchmaking have guns that can overmatch the bow armor on the Dunkerque, to say the ship can't bow tank is a gross miscalculation.  Bow tanking is one of Dunkerque's greatest assets and Flamu here is needlessly throwing that asset away.  In the replay provided below, you can see that in a Tier 8 match, out of the 5 enemy Battleships, only one had the guns large enough to overmatch my Dunkerque's bow.  For Flamu to think that the ship can't even tank at tier 6 is beyond belief. Even against shells that can overmatch, going bow-on presents a far smaller profile ensure fewer shells will hit you, which is in essence providing protection.  Other Battleships will have to show some broadside in order to utilize their full firepower against you, offering a larger target and exposing all of the fire hardpoints of their ship.  Also cruisers and destroyers often will have their shells shatter against the bow at close range, which is still tanking.

If I remember correctly, when Dunkerque first debuted, the only other tier 6 BB's were New Mexico, Fuso and Warspite. If you were top tier, only Warspite (pretty rare to see them) could lolpen your bow. Now Queen Elizabeth, Bayern and Mutsu have been added to that. Out of just the battleships in Dunkerque's tier, 2/3 can lolpen the bow. Every tier 7 and 8 battleship can with the exception of Scharnhorst and King George V (who'll be firing HE anyway). Cruisers and destroyers will shoot HE at you anyway, so that's a wash. Bow tanking is an asset that has its uses, especially when top tier. Just not in every single match. Don't try to bow tank a North Carolina or an Amagi, for example.

"You'll notice I was angled, trying to eat it [15" shells] on my broadside armor"

Flamu's tactic here is dubious as he tries to present a larger target to his enemy (a Tirpitz in brawling range no less) and he ends up taking heavy damage for it.  You want the shells to miss entirely so charging in against a top tier German Battleship and angling was an extremely poor tactical decision.  Don't let the enemy play to their strengths, the Dunkerque has the speed to avoid these situations.

Agreeing with Sventex here. Tirpitz isn't a destroyer. There's little reason to let one get that close. A Dunkerque should be rolling with friendly cruisers anyway. If a situation comes down to a solo Dunkerque vs. Tirpitz duel, the situation has degraded poorly for your team and is likely a loss anyway. If you're alone in anything outside the late-game, you've played wrong.

"One of the key points of this is keeping on the move.  -  How do you play it?  You keep on the move.  You have to keep on the move"

"One of my main lessons when playing the Dunkerque is never stop in the open.  Being caught in the open and sitting still is a death sentence"

This is one of the most questionable lessons that Flamu gives in his video.  The Dunkerque is a very large target with a vulnerable broadside, moving forward when bottom tier is offering the enemy a juicy target.  What you want to do in the Dunkerque is manage the enemy player's target priority.  If your sitting at long range, and the enemy Battleship has numerous ships at closer range shooting at it, it's going to prioritize them over you because they are a greater threat and offer more dps to them.  If your needlessly zipping around broadside at long-mid range, your going to present the enemy with a juicy DPS opportunity, and if you just charge in against tier 8 ships, your going to be outflanked and overpowered.  The Dunkerque's speed and mobility is best used in the end game, when most other ships are dead.  The Dunkerque is extremely dangerous against 90% of ships (in tier 6-8 MM) because they are incapable of overmatching her bow, which makes the ship one of the best carry Premium Battleships in the game and probably excellent practice for the Richelieu.

You're both right and both wrong. There are times to use the Dunkerque's excellent mobility, and times to huddle up against an island, create a corridor and make the reds incredibly annoyed. It depends on the situation, mainly who you're fighting and what kind of shooting angles you can get. If you're not dealing damage because you placed yourself against a particular island with no one to shoot at, you're mostly dead weight to your team. Never ever think you can sit still and bow tank in open water. It's super easy to get outflanked there.

"It's better to ram into an island at full speed"

"Amusingly, one of the strengths of the ship, which is having all gun on the forward part of the ship, is actually a bit of a weakness."

This sounds like intentionally user error.

Flamu, leave the tactical Notser maneuver to, well, Notser. And yeah, I kinda agree with Flamu here that not having guns in the rear can be a weakness. On the other hand, if you have ships getting behind you before a destroyer in the late game, you dun messed up. So you give a bit and take a bit with the setup.

"The secondaries have very awkward angles, you need to give far too much broadside to be able to efficiently use them.  The secondaries in general are not recommendable"

The Dunkerque has in effect, 2 Gearings strapped to the back of the ship with twelve 5" guns that can be used without the need to show any broadside.  It has been the mistake of many DD captains to try and attack a Dunkerque from behind, thinking that is the blind spot.  Note in my replay, that against the Loyang that attempted to attack me from behind, ended up sacrificing himself against my secondary guns in exchange for a single torpedo hit, my forward main battery was not needed.

This is why the main guns being up front only isn't as bad as it seems. Even without secondary spec, the psychological effect on destroyer captains from all the shells flying at them is very real and can make them screw their spread even if you don't secondary kill them.

"If you have the lowest AP damage, umm the lowest AP alpha, all of these things also having the same reload as the other ships, really isn't that much fun."

Flamu throughout his video complains about the Dunkerque AP shells several times, but he only ever uses those AP shells for 97% of the match.  He never connects the dots that maybe he shouldn't use AP, and he never discusses the power of the Dunkerque's HE shells in the entire video and end up throwing away another of the ship's greatest assets with it's high fire %.  Another problem with the Dunkerque's AP shell is that the tremendous muzzle velocity gives the shells the nasty habit of over-penetrating on fully broadside targets.  Reliability in damage comes from the Dunkerque's HE shells, even against enemy cruisers.  The AP shells require the enemy cruisers and even some battleships to angle in order for their armor to "catch" the AP shells, which means only using AP for select situations.

A large part of doing well in this ship (and this is a skill I personally haven't finished mastering, disclaimer) is knowing which shell to use when. You can't use AP all the time, but using HE all the time is also inefficient. Ignore the battleship symbol. You are a battlecruiser. See the cruiser part? Remember it. Use HE against angled battleships and destroyers and AP against anything broadside. Act like a super-heavy cruiser in shell choice, as your guns won't overmatch anything but the most frail of cruisers.

"I do run concealment expert on this ship, and that ability to disengage is so-so important on this ship"

Flamu yoloed right into the enemy and was never in a position for his concealment expert skill to help him disengage, so he effectively wasted 4 points on his captain.  The Dunkerque strength comes from it's ability to maintain maximum RPM from it's main battery, which would be wasting another asset of the ship by trying to conceal this ship that can be spotted from the Andromeda Galaxy. (credit to Nozoupforyou for that analogy)  By the 6:30 mark of his video, he's already 10km away from an enemy Battleship, concealment expert is worthless when yoloing.

Concealment Expert is important. Why? Because the ship has a stupid base spotting range, and if you don't have it, you'll likely be spotted first and thus focused for lack of other targets at the start of a game. Also useful in the late game. But otherwise, yeah, Sventex has a point that keeping your guns singing as much as reasonably possible is how you make your damage. You are NOT an Iowa. You don't dev strike cruisers and then vanish into the nether. You keep chipping away at your enemies with BOTH AP and HE till they keel over.

"The Scharnhorst, I play it very similarly"

This is where the biggest error in his match, twice in his showcase battle, Flamu goes and brawls with 2 separate Tirpitz.  One of which actually kills him after he tells his team "Don't die, and we win".  I cannot stress enough that the Dunkerque is not a German Battleship, it does not brawl well with other German Battleships.  Do not play to the enemies strengths.  The Dunkerque high velocity shells enable it to effectively target ships at long range, so it becomes important when bottom tier to not charge at the top tier Battleships.

Fully agree with Sventex. For comparison, Scharnhorst's belt is 350mm thick and Dunkerque's is 225mm. It's impossible to stress how big of a difference that is in practice. Shots that would bounce harmlessly off a Scharnhorst will citadel a Dunkerque. Furthermore, the Scharnhorst has the German torpedoes we all know and love. German Battleships LOVE to brawl. It's literally their niche in the game. Don't play in the court where they are queen. The Dunkerque does not brawl unless the game depends on it.

Flamu's advice is to always keep moving, that "being caught in the open and sitting still is a death sentence", but note how I do not stray far from my spawn point in the first 10 minutes of the match.  I operate out in the open, but I keep a healthy distance away from the enemy to ensure I am never outflanked.  Anyone whose played a RN BB knows that HE is best employed at mid-range, and that it's important to manage the distance between you and the enemy fleet.  Even at bottom tier,  I'm causing considerable damage by sitting back while also disrupting the enemies attempt to take the caps and setting fires.  It's only at the halfway point, where the team if outnumbered 6:3 and the caps are in danger that I put the Dunkerque's speed to use.  At this point, the enemy team no longer have any ships that can overmatch my bow, and thus the Dunkerque can play to it's own strengths and have unfair fights with the other ships, picking them off one by one and racking up the metals.  That's my advice for T8 battles with the Dunkerque, wait it out, let the higher tier ships duke it out with each other until they've destroyed each other, then move in to wreak havoc.  The Dunkerque is very strong against Destroyers and Cruisers at any tier, and will earn bonus points of sinking these higher tier ships, so you want to give yourself the best possible chance at taking them out.  So don't go full potato and brawl with a bunch of Tirpitzs.

I broadly agree with this assessment. The hardest part about Dunkerque when up-tiered is staying both alive and in mostly good health till the late game when your abilities can be of more use to the team.  It's quite hard, actually, but totally possible. Remember that when up-tiered you are a support ship until the big boys are finished with their slug fest. You fire HE and set them on fire, you fire AP into anyone broadsiding, you roll with your cruisers and make the enemy cruisers very upset. But until the tier 7/8 proper battleships have been thinned out, you are not a front line ship.

When up-tiered, despite your battleship sized hitpoints, you are not a battleship, and you cannot take hits for an extended period of time.

W0yKLVI.jpg

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2 hours ago, DaryaKonstantin said:
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As the first person to respond on the first thread, the reason it went downhill so fast is because Flamu himself showed up and stat-shamed Sventex and trolled/ranted how forumers are idiots instead of offering a eloquent response. From there it degraded real fast as people showed up, other well known youtubers joined in (I remember Arlios being there), and then it naturally got locked.

Also, Sventex, props for the less provocative title that is less likely to draw You-Know-Who himself here to derail the thread like last time :Smile_Default:

Key:

Bold - Sventex

Underlined - Darya (me)

 

Not counting CVs, only 10% of ships in the tier 6 - 8 matchmaking have guns that can overmatch the bow armor on the Dunkerque, to say the ship can't bow tank is a gross miscalculation.  Bow tanking is one of Dunkerque's greatest assets and Flamu here is needlessly throwing that asset away.  In the replay provided below, you can see that in a Tier 8 match, out of the 5 enemy Battleships, only one had the guns large enough to overmatch my Dunkerque's bow.  For Flamu to think that the ship can't even tank at tier 6 is beyond belief. Even against shells that can overmatch, going bow-on presents a far smaller profile ensure fewer shells will hit you, which is in essence providing protection.  Other Battleships will have to show some broadside in order to utilize their full firepower against you, offering a larger target and exposing all of the fire hardpoints of their ship.  Also cruisers and destroyers often will have their shells shatter against the bow at close range, which is still tanking.

If I remember correctly, when Dunkerque first debuted, the only other tier 6 BB's were New Mexico, Fuso and Warspite. If you were top tier, only Warspite (pretty rare to see them) could lolpen your bow. Now Queen Elizabeth, Bayern and Mutsu have been added to that. Out of just the battleships in Dunkerque's tier, 2/3 can lolpen the bow. Every tier 7 and 8 battleship can with the exception of Scharnhorst and King George V (who'll be firing HE anyway). Cruisers and destroyers will shoot HE at you anyway, so that's a wash. Bow tanking is an asset that has its uses, especially when top tier. Just not in every single match. Don't try to bow tank a North Carolina or an Amagi, for example.

 

This is one of the most questionable lessons that Flamu gives in his video.  The Dunkerque is a very large target with a vulnerable broadside, moving forward when bottom tier is offering the enemy a juicy target.  What you want to do in the Dunkerque is manage the enemy player's target priority.  If your sitting at long range, and the enemy Battleship has numerous ships at closer range shooting at it, it's going to prioritize them over you because they are a greater threat and offer more dps to them.  If your needlessly zipping around broadside at long-mid range, your going to present the enemy with a juicy DPS opportunity, and if you just charge in against tier 8 ships, your going to be outflanked and overpowered.  The Dunkerque's speed and mobility is best used in the end game, when most other ships are dead.  The Dunkerque is extremely dangerous against 90% of ships (in tier 6-8 MM) because they are incapable of overmatching her bow, which makes the ship one of the best carry Premium Battleships in the game and probably excellent practice for the Richelieu.

You're both right and both wrong. There are times to use the Dunkerque's excellent mobility, and times to huddle up against an island, create a corridor and make the reds incredibly annoyed. It depends on the situation, mainly who you're fighting and what kind of shooting angles you can get. If you're not dealing damage because you placed yourself against a particular island with no one to shoot at, you're mostly dead weight to your team. Never ever think you can sit still and bow tank in open water. It's super easy to get outflanked there.

 

I'll just add my thoughts to these 2 points.

1. It has been hotly debated just what the Dunkerque can bow-tank it seems, but I'll argue that getting shot in the bow is bow-tanking.  The Dunkerque has a giant superstructure, it'll catch most of the HE shells, protecting the amidships and the aft of the ship.  Not to mention that is when all the HE fire is focused in a single area, damage saturation is going to kick in for the bow and the supterstructure.  Sure, you'll be set on fire, and you'll take damage but that's where the Dunkerque's Battlecruiser status kicked in because it's got a heal, and it can take this punish and keep going for quite awhile.  And when it comes to fighting the Amagi or North Carolina, I'd still argue to go in bow first, and have distance be your armor.  At 17km, those guns will have a hard time finding the citadel, and their aim can be thrown off by wiggling the helm left and right, it played havoc with the game's aiming system.  But it should be recognized that when bow-tanking 15"+ guns, it's not the armor that's protecting you, it's the smaller surface area the enemies has to target that's going to be providing protection.

yKd4map.jpg

2. I'll absolutely agree that when the Dunkerque is top tier, that is should use it's mobility from the get-go and start tanking for the team.  The strategy I outlined is really for being bottom tier BB in a tier 8 battle.  At tier 5-6, even if the enemy team has a few overmatching guns, odds are good that they don't have time to target you, or their dispersion is terrible.  Not just that, but WWI Battleships have terrible speed, so those Battlecruiser attributes can be put to better use contesting a cap and destroying DDs and CLs while the enemy BBs are still getting into position.  One thing to not get hung up on is measuring the Dunkerque on it's anti-BB capabilities.  Killing a DD pays out just as well as killing a Battleship, so that's really where the paydirt is in a random game.  I have a Yamato and it's almost in inversion of the Dunkerque in my opinion, with premier anti-Battleship capabilities at the cost of everything else, but I personally don't find it all that impressive since it has almost no control over the caps unless it effectively decides to sacrifice itself.

Edited by Sventex

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7 minutes ago, Sventex said:

I'll just add my thoughts to these 2 points.

1. It has been hotly debated just what the Dunkerque can bow-tank it seems, but I'll argue that getting shot in the bow is bow-tanking.  The Dunkerque has a giant superstructure, it'll catch most of the HE shells, protecting the amidships and the aft of the ship.  Not to mention that is all the HE fire is focused in a single area, damage saturation is going to kick in for the bow and the supterstructure.  Sure, you'll be set on fire, and you'll take damage but that's where the Dunkerque's Battlecruiser status kicked in because it's got a heal, and it can take this punish and keep going for quite awhile.  And when it comes to fighting the Amagi or North Carolina, I'd still argue to go in bow first, and have distance be your armor.  At 17km, those guns will have a hard time finding the citadel, and their aim can be thrown off by wiggling the helm left and right, it played havoc with the game's aiming system.  But it should be recognized that when bow-tanking 15"+ guns, it's not the armor that's protecting you, it's the smaller surface area the enemies has to target that's going to be providing protection.

2. I'll absolutely agree that when the Dunkerque is top tier, that is should use it's mobility from the get-go and start tanking for the team.  The strategy I outlined is really for being bottom tier BB in a tier 8 battle.  At tier 5-6, even if the enemy team has a few overmatching guns, odds are good that they don't have time to target you, or their dispersion is terrible.  Not just that, but WWI Battleships have terrible speed, so those Battlecruiser attributes can be put to better use contesting a cap and destroying DDs and CLs while the enemy BBs are still getting into position.  One thing to not get hung up on is measuring the Dunkerque on it's anti-BB capabilities.  Killing a DD pays out just as well as killing a Battleship, so that's really where the paydirt is in a random game.  I have a Yamato and it's almost in inversion of the Dunkerque in my opinion, with premier anti-Battleship capabilities at the cost of everything else, but I personally don't find it all that impressive since it has almost no control over the caps unless it effectively decides to sacrifice itself.

1) I agree. Damage saturation comes pretty quick if you're constantly HE spammed for a bit, and making yourself a smaller target is half the battle with bow tanking. In fact, the only real point of contention I have is with you saying 17km. Maybe I'm just not personally good at those long shots, but my default is around 5km behind the bigger battleships on my team. That or supporting an aggressive cruiser push on a cap in which I stay with the CA's behind the CL's and DD's. Just as long as you don't seem like as attractive target for the 15" and 16" battleships, really (disclaimer: if you're the only BB on your flank, you should be tanking, tier 8 bb's against you or not).

2) Agreed. Both top tier and bottom tier, Dunkerque really excels at mugging cruisers above all else with its high velocity flat arc guns. Obviously a Hipper is more dangerous prey than an Konigsberg, but it still applies. Due to it's smaller than normal caliber, it still really needs battleship broadsides even at tier 5 to do significant damage to them without waiting for HE fire damage to do its thing. As I understand it, whacking around destroyers and cruisers actually net you more rewards since the same damage is a larger percentage of their health. 

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I am a bb main and I question Flamu on lots of his tactics.

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Players who think the Dunk can't inflict good damage are mistaken.  Best example of this I had was an almost full health Bayern right in front of me. I loaded late thanks to my anti-virus running and I forgot about it. 

His guns were facing away from me, but he was stationary, right in front of me capping our base (rest of team sunk or at other base).

Two salvos took him from almost full health to almost no health. By the time he realized what happened, the 'duel' was over.

I find aiming the guns on the Dunk to be one of the best for T6 BBs.  Because of that you can rack up damage quite easily and quickly.

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Hey

There are 2 big problem with Dunkerque.  1) Staying in the fight too long when you can't change the outcome as your position will soon be over run, the bow on camping method contributes to this problem because you become static and not flexible, which Flamu is right in being on the move, able to retreat as needed to reposition.  2) The main guns are very inconsistent in how they deal damage, one slavo might be utterly amazing and the next is utter garbage.  One time you can delete a broadside cruiser or DD and the next shot will be less than 1K damage.  Sorry but any DD hit by a BB's HE shells when broadside at 3-5 km should be a dead DD, but many times it's not and it's that inconsistency that hurts the Dunk (also could be mentioned is the relatively poor AP ballistics/penetration which is why many use HE, because it is more consistent damage).  Then there is all of the up-tiering we see with T6 these days,, there is NO WAY for a Dunkerque to go 1 on 1 with an Alabama, bow in or not, I would rather have my Bayern for that.  If I added a #3, it would be the detection; I mean really, this thing for her tier is insane and goes a long way to getting it killed.  The Dunkerque is lots of fun to play but she does have issues with design that if Wargaming corrected would go a long way in helping the Dunkerque be even more competitive in the Random Battle scene.  Keep her moving, exploiting targets of opportunity, to that end, I will agree with Flamu.

 

Pete

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5 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

The main guns are very inconsistent in how they deal damage, one slavo might be utterly amazing and the next is utter garbage.

You just described every BB in the game.  This isn't unique to the Dunk and by no means is she the worst (that belongs to most German tech tree BBs).

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On 1/15/2018 at 2:39 PM, Wowzery said:

You just described every BB in the game.  This isn't unique to the Dunk and by no means is she the worst (that belongs to most German tech tree BBs).

Hey

But unlike the German tech tree ships (premiums too); the Dunkerque doesn't have very good armor, especially from the side; she does not have the AA to fight off a CV (most T6's aren't very good), She can not turn and run away due to her required bow tanking, an then there is the possible turret damage in which a full gun gets taken out much more often than any other BB.  So the one redeeming trait needed most is guns that work consistently, reliably.  She has very good HE (not RN levels though) but her AP is where she falls short.  At T6 she holds her own ok, but rapidly falls off at T7 and well very few T6 BB's can hold up to T8 very well, nature of the beast.

 

Pete

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5 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

But unlike the German tech tree ships (premiums too); the Dunkerque doesn't have very good armor, especially from the side; she does not have the AA to fight off a CV (most T6's aren't very good), She can not turn and run away due to her required bow tanking, an then there is the possible turret damage in which a full gun gets taken out much more often than any other BB.  So the one redeeming trait needed most is guns that work consistently, reliably.  She has very good HE (not RN levels though) but her AP is where she falls short.  At T6 she holds her own ok, but rapidly falls off at T7 and well very few T6 BB's can hold up to T8 very well, nature of the beast.

 

Pete

You say that, yet I've done all of that.  Gone one on one against a Bismarck and won, NC are easily citted with the 'weak' AP ammo.  I've tanked in her in T6-8 matches, been nimble enough to avoid T8 CV drops and haven't noticed my turrets taken out any higher than any other BB. 

As for turning, again, you've described every BB in the game.  Any BB which tries to turn and expose the broadside when under fire will get hit hard (unless RNG is on your side).  Then again, the key to avoiding this isn't a weakness, but a lack of knowledge of how the game is shaping up around you.  You are lacking situational awareness of the battle which is deadly to every BB.

The problem is she has a misconstrued reputation and when it does happen (which isn't as often as you think) people notice it more.

Honestly when I play a T8 BB I love seeing that German BB because they are so easy to take out over the rest.   A Dunkerque is all about the captain as to how difficult she is to sink.

As for reliant, consistent guns, I get more consistency out of the Dunks guns than the Bayern.

In short, the Dunk has the highest skill level of all T6 BBs. But if you master her, she's one of the best at the tier even against T8.  Sorry, but for me, your argument is weak at best because Iv'e done it in games and do not fear any opposing ship one on one in her.  Then again, that's the nature of the game.

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1 hour ago, Wowzery said:

You say that, yet I've done all of that.  Gone one on one against a Bismarck and won, NC are easily citted with the 'weak' AP ammo.  I've tanked in her in T6-8 matches, been nimble enough to avoid T8 CV drops and haven't noticed my turrets taken out any higher than any other BB. 

As for turning, again, you've described every BB in the game.  Any BB which tries to turn and expose the broadside when under fire will get hit hard (unless RNG is on your side).  Then again, the key to avoiding this isn't a weakness, but a lack of knowledge of how the game is shaping up around you.  You are lacking situational awareness of the battle which is deadly to every BB.

The problem is she has a misconstrued reputation and when it does happen (which isn't as often as you think) people notice it more.

Honestly when I play a T8 BB I love seeing that German BB because they are so easy to take out over the rest.   A Dunkerque is all about the captain as to how difficult she is to sink.

As for reliant, consistent guns, I get more consistency out of the Dunks guns than the Bayern.

In short, the Dunk has the highest skill level of all T6 BBs. But if you master her, she's one of the best at the tier even against T8.  Sorry, but for me, your argument is weak at best because Iv'e done it in games and do not fear any opposing ship one on one in her.  Then again, that's the nature of the game.

Hey

Sorry if I don't believe you and much of what you say.  The Dunkerque is not even close to being in the same sea as a T8, much less against Bismarck or NC's.  Dunkerque is the only BB that I have ever lost a turret in.  You say what you want, she is not, far away strong against T8, and lucky to hold her own against most T7's.  She is fun and different but hardly a love affair type of ship, if she was that good you would see more of them being played more often.

 

Pete

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25 minutes ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

Sorry if I don't believe you and much of what you say.  The Dunkerque is not even close to being in the same sea as a T8, much less against Bismarck or NC's.  Dunkerque is the only BB that I have ever lost a turret in.  You say what you want, she is not, far away strong against T8, and lucky to hold her own against most T7's.  She is fun and different but hardly a love affair type of ship, if she was that good you would see more of them being played more often.

 

Pete

We have two different experiences with this ship.  As I said, its a high skill BB and doesn't suit everyone's playstyle.  I'll admit that freely, and its obvious it doesn't fit yours.  But to discount other players' experience in them is shortsighted.

I don't have a problem against T7 or 8 BBs in her, you might, doesn't mean everyone is like you.

The arguments you make  are the same ones I hear for every T6 BB, and that's the problem with such arguments.  Its not specific to one ship and depends heavily on the player.  Everyone is different, and that's a good thing.  If all the players were the same we'd all be playing them more often.  For example, if the Bayern is so great as some say, that should be the only T6 BB we see.  Even when Warspite ruled T6, you saw many NMs and Fuso.  Even now, I'd rather take the NM over the Bayern, or the Fuso.

Any T6 BB can take on a T8 BB, it all comes down to the players, skill and some luck.

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17 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

But unlike the German tech tree ships (premiums too); the Dunkerque doesn't have very good armor, especially from the side; she does not have the AA to fight off a CV (most T6's aren't very good), She can not turn and run away due to her required bow tanking, an then there is the possible turret damage in which a full gun gets taken out much more often than any other BB.  So the one redeeming trait needed most is guns that work consistently, reliably.  She has very good HE (not RN levels though) but her AP is where she falls short.  At T6 she holds her own ok, but rapidly falls off at T7 and well very few T6 BB's can hold up to T8 very well, nature of the beast.

 

Pete

Her AA is quite salvageable, especially since the ship uniquely has the only tier 6 Battleship catapult fighter to disrupt air attacks and much of her AA power is focused in long range DP guns.

Spoiler

4dzVEC3.jpg

And the level 1 skill Preventative Maintenance and Main Battery Mod 1,which makes the possibility of losing a turret very rare.  You can watch the replay I provided at the bottom on the Original Post and see that I did indeed disengage and show my broadside, and was fine, bow tanking is not a "requirement", it is only an asset to be used at the best opportunity.  Especially if you know the enemy is firing HE.  And T8 cruisers and destroyers cannot hold up well against a Dunkerque that's after them, so I'll disagree there.

Edited by Sventex

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On this subject, what Captain's skills are people using? Right now I have my French CA captain on her... 

Level one: PT PM

Two:AR

Three: Demo

Four: AFT Ninja... 

 

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Hey

On my Dunkerque which sits at 227,940 ship XP (I have sold some).   I run Main Armaments Mod 1, Damage Control Mod 1, Aiming Accuracy Mod 1, Steering gears Mod 2.  On my Capt:  P.M.  E.M.  S.I.  C.E. and have 1 pt unused which before I had used on Dual catapult fighter to help the AA; I will probably do A.R. when I get the 2nd point.  The ship can be quite fun, and had a 80K damage game a few days ago. 

 

Pete 

 

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On 1/19/2018 at 6:53 AM, Sir_Davos_Seaworth said:

On this subject, what Captain's skills are people using? Right now I have my French CA captain on her... 

Level one: PT PM

Two:AR

Three: Demo

Four: AFT Ninja... 

 

I can't in good conscious recommend this built, I do it out of personal preference.  I spec AA because I don't like being vulnerable to a single class of ship if I can help it, even if the ship type isn't always in a match.  It also boosts the secondaries against close range DD attack and gives me extra noticed when one is attempting a sneak attack.  Preventive Maintenance is a must if your bow tanking, but I'm thinking of moving Demo Expert to Basics of Survivability during the next free retain period to counter the RN BB fire spam meta.

v3w7SB6.jpg

Edited by Sventex

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On 13/01/2018 at 6:02 AM, Sventex said:

Even since Flamu posted his "Dunkerque - How To Deal With T8 MM" video, I've been itching to point out the flaws.  The Dunkerque is one of Flamu's least played ships and least favorite ships, and it show by how he offers advice that can even be considered dangerous.  So let's go through Flamu's lessons one by one and deconstruct his video.

 

Flamu dont like Dunkerque because he likes efficient ships, and Dunk is far from that, as he points at th start of the video. If you want a T6 BB to hard carry battles there as much better choices. Dunkerque is a very fun ship to play, but not very efficient.

 

- The guns : 

They have the lowest gun calliber of T6, they are also only 8. Other ships have more guns of higher calliber. They also have very poor dispersion. Few guns with low gun calliber and terrible disperion = not reliable.

 

The AP has really good pen, but strugles with poor accuracy and low calliber. The HE is decent compared to non RN BBs, but its still situational. Nothing really amazing. The reload is good but nothing amazing either. 

 

- The ship:

Dunkerque is covered by 25mm of plate armor, wich means that some T6, most T7 and all T8 BBs can just overmatch and s**t on you. Also with 25mm of plate armor HE spammers also s**t on you and just melt your HP. Dunkerque is also a huge target and the citadel is exposed.

 

When Flamu show his sides he is trying to angle the ship, so the enemy hits the armored belt wich can bounce enemy shoots, you can avoid damage or at least avoid a huge citadel salvo. You offer a bigger target but also a more tanky target.

 

- Gameplay:

When Flamu says to keep moving he is not telling you to rush and move foward. Ships that arent moving or are very slow are easy targets, and Dunkerque is far from being a tanky BB. Thats whats he points when he compares to NC and Yamato is because they are good bow tankers, they have good armor, very different from Dunk. 

 

A very comon mistake from Dunk players is that thye just park bow on thinking they are invinsible and then the enemy melts them with large AP or HE spam. 

 

Dunkerque gameplay is fun because the ship is very fast (compared to other T6 BBs) and the guns positioning makes very easy to sail the ship. But the ship has too many flaws to hard carry a battle, it can happen, but other ships like Warpite, Arizona and Fuso have much bettter and easy time hard carrying battles. 

 

 

 

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My biggest problem is when someone starts off with they dislike/hate ship X, their opinion of the ship drops tremendously.  Why?

They dislike the ship and are looking for things to dislike about it to justify their dislike.  They will never see the good side out of their biases.  Flamu is no exception in this no matter how good he, or his stats, are.  This is human nature, to justify their opinion and make it the only 'right' opinion.

Second, Flamu is a YTer, which, personally, I can't stand.  Big inflated egos.  So no, I don't take what he says with any seriousness.

  • Cool 1

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