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Destroyer_Zekamashi

In response to the recent WG QnA regarding IJN DDs

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Crucis    2,909
42 minutes ago, Sventex said:

IJN stealth torp line is about the only ship line the in the game where I'll regularly get no ribbons in an entire match.

And this is entirely possible.  Heck, I once had a battle in my KamiR where I never really had a CHANCE to get any torp hits the entire battle, let alone having some decent chances but bad luck getting them to land.  It was on 2Brothers in a tier 7 battle (which I don't mind in my KamiR, since it has the speed, concealment, and good torps to compete at tier 7) where the enemy team decided to engage in a fighting withdrawal the entire battle on my side of the map.  And while I could keep pace with the enemy ships and gain on them, when you only have 7 km torps and a conceal range of 5.4, even if I fired my torps at 5.4 km, the enemy ships would just out run them before they could land.  And while I could have tried to close on them while detected, it would have only gotten me pointlessly killed, since the closing rate would have been too low and I'd have been dead well before I'd have gotten close enough to launch torps that had enough legs to reach then enemy.  And that doesn't account for the fact that they'd have seen me the entire time and would have easily evaded the torps.

 

Anyways...

Sometimes it really stinks being in a strictly torpedo boat DD.  WG can talk all they want about how powerful IJN torps are, but that means nothing if you can't get them to hit.  Torpedoes are already very difficult to get hits with at the best of times, because you're essentially depending on players to be oblivious enough for the time it takes your torps to reach the target for them to hit.  If the target ships are constantly maneuvering against other your team mates (even if they're not maneuvering to avoid potential torpedoes), those torps will miss and you've just lost something like 1.5 to 2.5 minutes of torp loading time.

 

There are other DD lines in the game that are primarily torp boats (PD and KM DD's come to mind) that seem much more fun to play because they have relatively useful guns.  And while some may think that the IJN DDs guns (barring the Akizuki, of course) are useful, IMO, given how slow most IJN DD's are, how bad their turret traverse is, and how slow their gun reloads are, I tend to think of their guns as super situational.  And you have to think long and hard about how much value are you going to get from revealing your position by using those guns versus remaining concealed.

Oh the whole, for a DD line that's supposed to be (or would seem so) the premier stealthy ninja torpedo boat line, the IJNs torpedoes just don't feel like they're anywhere near good enough to fit the bill.

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Taichunger    2,071
20 hours ago, Destroyer_Zekamashi said:

What would be the best approach to "fixing" the line? In the end, that is up to WG. Although my suggestions to help the line would be:

 

I would argue that you are looking at the wrong trait. The reason people shy away from IJN DDs is not the torp detect, although that sucks. It's the poor ROF of the guns, which means big disadvantages in cap grabbing and knife fighting. In a USN DD at least you can beat off any attackers. In an IJN DD people feel like they are food. Buffing gun ROF would be huge for IJN DDs. But it might make them OP. 

Alternatively, return stealth firing to them, and only to them. I used to love gunboating in Akatsuki, which has excellent HE. 

Another option would be a buff to the torp reload time, particularly of Shima and Kag. I have many times seen Shima-s refuse to cap because they don't have torps up, and of course they cant knife fight a Groz, Gearing, Z-52, or even one of the potent T9s. 

In the hands of a skilled captain, IJN DDs can still accomplish amazing things. 

Also, you need the two weeks' data in battles played. The NA server is not appearing on WarshipsToday, but two weeks data on the EU server has Fletch with 50.3K games, and Yug with 49.4. There doesn't seem to be a clear preference, and in fact, once you account for all the people who haven't ground up the IJN line, Yug might even be more popular. Kag is far more popular than Benson, 50K to 37K (ditto for RU, where Yug is more popular than fletch). 

Edited by Taichunger
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Grizley    1,337

Don't forget to mention T10.

 

91k Shima, 50k Gearing.

 

I'd also take both DD and BB numbers over the last two weeks with a grain of salt. Duke of York campaign.  

The biggest problem with IJN DD guns is the captains refuse to fire them.  Outside of 6km you have an advantage vs a USN DD. Plus, you're faster.  The trick is not letting them catch you with your pants around your ankles pointing straight at them.  If you do that, you're going to take a pile of close range damage before you get to safe distance.

 

That's why you have RPF, so that never happens.

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AlcatrazNC    92

To be honest IJN DD is the only line where I can have this low reward.

Spoiler

shot-18_01.14_13_49.50-0826.thumb.jpg.3f3e0f6ea84949979c24967ddc7d3cb8.jpgshot-18_01.14_13_49.56-0733.thumb.jpg.91c12b7df110c9831433a323b2f6ae59.jpg

 

It was a CV game, I was almost perma spotted and the only times I was able to go stealth and torps, my torps were spotted by either aircraft or hydro. Let's not forget the stupid torps detection. 

 

If I play with my USN or German DD, I can constanly do some damage while securing caps (so decent reward). With IJN I just can't always secure enough XP and credit.

 

-I try launching some torps at BB, their stupid planes will spot them and they will all miss. If my torps manage to sneak those planes, the stupid surface detection will make him avoid almost all my torps. If I'm lucky I'll score 1-3 torps but once every 87.3 sec is pretty long.

 

-When an ennemi is spotted, your team mate will often shoot at him making your strike even less effective. Even the worst potato will turn away the moment a shell will hit his ship. Sometime you fail to torps a target simply because your team decided to make him turn away. I would not mind it if I could earn reward for this but unfortunately it's not the case.

 

-I cap since I can't torps, well guess what ? cap doesn't rewards you

 

-I try doing some spotting damage but aircraft and radar are always here highly reducing my ability to earn point.

 

So far playing IJN DD rely on :

-People camping in smoke

-Not having CV / facing a really really bad CV

-Having people sailing in straight line

-Having a team that doesn't focus your target

-Positionning. 

-The most important thing : facing player with SAD broken, only able to press W

 

 

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Gascan75    417
On 1/12/2018 at 7:39 PM, chewonit said:

And get rid of the stupid perma-spot of torps.

You can't. Because they run at a constant speed for a known amount of time at a known heading even a  hamster could build a client side mod that indicated them throughout their life cycle once spotted even for a fraction of a second. The salt would be real. 

Edited by Gascan75

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Carl    371

EDIT: somehow hit post too soon

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Carl    371

I've posted this before and i'm sure the DD mafia, (most of whom like the Op are on my ignore list), will be along shortly to decry it but here's a video showing have far a Tirpitz cna turn in a little over 9 seconds:

 

 

The fact is unless the targets allready somewhat angled you cannot turn far enough to have any appreciable effect on the torps. And if they're allready fairly angled why the hell are you dropping on them and expecting lots of hits from any DD?

 

IJN DD are such a mess for one really simple reason. They're bloody torpedo focused. Torpedoes because of their sheer instantaneous high alpha delivery and attendant lethal dot simply cannot afford to be allowed to score a lot of hits. The sheer punch and flooding can outright kill or doom a ship to death via flooding in an instant with no time to respond after the attack starts landing or to heal, or to do anything much except die. When a cruiser deals 30k damage to another ship or group thereof, the enemy has time to respond, to shoot back, to in short do somthing to reduce the maximum damage take. Vs torpedoes if a ship gets caught thats it they're going to take very heavy damage at the minimum or even get outright one-shotted. it makes the damage more effective. All of this goes in part to explain why DD average damage lags behind every other class.

 

But that ame factor means pure torp DD's are going to lag even other DD's on average if they;re balanced and it also means given the sheer alpha of torps that very few torp hits can be allowed. Assuming average 20% TDR for a Kagero just 1.66 torp hits per battle, (using EU average damage data as WT is down for NA again). Getting the average hits that low when your launching 8 torps a volley with the attendant high likelihood of more than 2 hits if any of them connect requires a very deliberate effort being made to make torp hits very hard to get at all. And that in part requires very low Ro, this produces a small number of drops wich means small statistical sample size which means your odds of encountering all bad situations on any one match worth of drops goes up significantly. In other words it's very easy to get a significant diffrance in hits count between any two battles including higher odds of seeing more zero hits games.

 

It's why my idea of the ideal T8 prem IJN DD is a Shima Hull equipped with TRB as a seperate consumable and a slightly modified Typ44 Mod 2 torpedo. Specifically it would have a zeroed flood chance. Yes you only get 6800 alpha at an awful 48 knots. But you get a 60 second base reload, given it's a shima hull and would thus keep the T9 module slot with skills and modules you could get that down to 45.9 seconds base. That makes meeting the 5+ average torps hit per battle you'd need to be an effective damage dealer much easier. And it no longer matters if you fluff a drop or something else makes the enemy turn or they get air spotted, or someone pops hydro or whatever, because less than a minute later you can throw yet another salvo down their throats, and if you really need it you have TRB to completely overwhelm them with torps for a salvo. All of which would IMHO be a more comfortable playstyle with far less feast or famine moments.

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Skpstr    1,545
On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 9:10 PM, Prothall said:

The Pan-Asian line was just the latest slap in the face to IJN DDs. Below average BB players do not want to be bothered with WASD hacks. Since they are a potentially huge revenue source guess who gets listened to.

It surely wasn't BBabies, otherwise they wouldn't have introduced the PA DDs, a stealthy DD line with stealthy torps that can't hit other DDs, and isn't a gimme in a gun battle with other DDs.

It's not that they're listening to BBabies, it's that they're not listening to IJN DD players.

You're getting slapped in the face so hard, you can't see who's doing it, and just lashing out at the easiest target.

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Dareios    77

I got tired of missing almost every torp in a battle, so converted my yugomo to a gunboat. About doubled my damage per game.

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Prothall    83
2 hours ago, Skpstr said:

It surely wasn't BBabies, otherwise they wouldn't have introduced the PA DDs, a stealthy DD line with stealthy torps that can't hit other DDs, and isn't a gimme in a gun battle with other DDs.

It's not that they're listening to BBabies, it's that they're not listening to IJN DD players.

You're getting slapped in the face so hard, you can't see who's doing it, and just lashing out at the easiest target.

You are correct. Thank you for pointing that out.

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AdmiralPiett    407

I like IJN DDs, but they can be really frustrating at times. The only saving graces for them right now is the general lack of CVs and how terrible the average DD player is, allowing me to routinely slaughter enemy DDs in gunfights I have no right to win.

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xDiaboliquex    37
On 1/12/2018 at 9:10 PM, Prothall said:

The Pan-Asian line was just the latest slap in the face to IJN DDs. Below average BB players do not want to be bothered with WASD hacks. Since they are a potentially huge revenue source guess who gets listened to. I repeatedly see the good BB drivers say stealth DD torps are not a huge problem.

IJN DDs are not the fastest. Their torps are the easiest to spot, and their stealth margin on other DDs is very narrow on some lines. They have no AA so can do nothing against the perma spotting planes.  I would GLADLY trade a little damage on hits for a better chance to get those hits.

100% agree. I'll trade you 4k damage, heck, 5-6k damage, for an increased chance to actually HIT something in an IJN DD.

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Shadowrigger1    894
On 1/12/2018 at 10:24 PM, AraAragami said:

Actually I think the best solution to fixing destroyers would be to force WG's developers to play the damn things.

 

Seriously, based on the decisions they've made over the years, I don't think anyone in St Petersburg plays any non-Russian destroyers.

 

They certainly don't play carriers in that building.

Have you actually watched the WG Dev streams or Twitch Streams?  They are all pretty bad players at best.

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Ulthwey    392

IJN destroyers are exactly where they should be. They have been in the spotlight for far too long when the game first came out. Its time for them to suffer from some mediocrity for a change.

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Prothall    83
32 minutes ago, Ulthwey said:

IJN destroyers are exactly where they should be. They have been in the spotlight for far too long when the game first came out. Its time for them to suffer from some mediocrity for a change.

Wow...do you have selective memory....

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centarina    790

I did horrid with gunbote yugumo  when they were first released.    so I stopped playing until recently with  TRB, and I've been doing lot better in few matches that I've done.   frankly, I prefer z46 but it is playable now with 12km torps (which I tend to use lot closer if I have opportunity)

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Sventex    931
1 hour ago, Ulthwey said:

IJN destroyers are exactly where they should be. They have been in the spotlight for far too long when the game first came out. Its time for them to suffer from some mediocrity for a change.

It's been years already...They were in the spotlight for a far shorter time then they've been mediocre.

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HLS30    1

I do far better in the Z52 as a torp boat than any IJN. The ability to get torps out almost every minute more than makes up for their weak damage outputs, since weak damage is better than no damage.

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goldeagle1123    1,230
2 hours ago, Ulthwey said:

IJN destroyers are exactly where they should be. They have been in the spotlight for far too long when the game first came out. Its time for them to suffer from some mediocrity for a change.

What a stupid, and flawed rationale. "They used to be good, so instead of balancing them, they have to be bad now!".

First off, they were never good save for low tier DDs which just trolly seal clubbers, and then the Shimakaze at launch, when it's 20km torps had normal detection. Tier 6-9 they were either average or garbage (the old Mutsuki and Kagero were notoriously two of the worst ships in the game). And since the Shimakaze nerf has all had their torpedo detection nerfed and the 12.7cm 3rd Year Type gun that's mounted on a lot of them got a damage nerf. I don't know where you got this illusion that past tier 5 they were ever good.

Even if we lived in your fantasy land where IJN DDs used to be OP, you think they should be made mediocre because of that? I thought making ships balanced was the goal of the game? Thanks I guess for at least for making anti-IJN DD bias and flawed rhetoric plain as day for us.

Edited by goldeagle1123
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Hurlbut    169
On 1/12/2018 at 6:39 PM, chewonit said:

And get rid of the stupid perma-spot of torps.

Make sense actually, because torpedoes travel basically the same path once they made the necessary adjustments to get on it. Thus they are super predictable once you spot them.

If I were to expand on your argument, I would say remove our ability to see shells coming from many kilometers away...

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Ulthwey    392
1 hour ago, goldeagle1123 said:

What a stupid, and flawed rationale. "They used to be good, so instead of balancing them, they have to be bad now!".

First off, they were never good save for low tier DDs which just trolly seal clubbers, and then the Shimakaze at launch, when it's 20km torps had normal detection. Tier 6-9 they were either average or garbage (the old Mutsuki and Kagero were notoriously two of the worst ships in the game). And since the Shimakaze nerf has all had their torpedo detection nerfed and the 12.7cm 3rd Year Type gun that's mounted on a lot of them got a damage nerf. I don't know where you got this illusion that past tier 5 they were ever good.

Even if we lived in your fantasy land where IJN DDs used to be OP, you think they should be made mediocre because of that? I thought making ships balanced was the goal of the game? Thanks I guess for at least for making anti-IJN DD bias and flawed rhetoric plain as day for us.

They ARE balanced. Out of the 4 destroyer lines someone has to be at the bottom, and it's IJN DD's turn now. WG isnt going to do anything to them in the near future, they are not going to shoot themselves in the foot AGAIN by giving people more reasons to complain about the "wall of skill". They had to deal with far too many complains about IJN DDs being OP during the first year of this game, so they took their typical route - and just nerfed the sh*t out of them. Ever since the number of complains about IJN DDs has finally decreased ... and developers like that, so they are not going to jeopardize it.

For every 1x person complaining about IJN DDs beingn weak there are about 5x people complaining the torp spam ruining the game. Developers would much rather find a way to shut those 5x people up, than bother pleasing the 1x person who needs to learn how to play.

Edited by Ulthwey
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AlcatrazNC    92
2 hours ago, Ulthwey said:

 Out of the 4 destroyer lines someone has to be at the bottom, and it's IJN DD's turn now.

 

When the game started we only had IJN and US line. First people complained about IJN being "OP" and WG nerf it.  Was the US DD line this bad before ? No. Then WG added Russian DD, then German and recently Pan Asia. 

You says it's IJN DD turn to be bad but tell me, did we had a bad russian DD ? Do we have a bad Pan Asia line ? We did had a meh German line but it was buffed right after. After several years, people still asking WG to buff IJN DD and the only thing they did is improving the stealth of some torps by 0.1km. Still better than nothing but it's not a big improvement. This line has been bad for several year and still bad nowaday, can other DD line say the same ?

 

2 hours ago, Ulthwey said:

WG isnt going to do anything to them in the near future, they are not going to shoot themselves in the foot AGAIN by giving people more reasons to complain about the "wall of skill".

 

Who are these people complaining about this "wall of skill" ? BB player. What are IJN favorite target as torps boat ? BB player. What DD is supposed to counter ? BB. Do you hear DD, CA or CV player complain about Shima's torps ? No.

 

2 hours ago, Ulthwey said:

. They had to deal with far too many complains about IJN DDs being OP during the first year of this game, so they took their typical route - and just nerfed the sh*t out of them.

 

In the meantime they added more hydro ship (German BB and German DD) and more radar ship (Missouri, Belfast). All high tier DD that isn't Russian are better torps boat than IJN. Fletcher, Z-46 and Chung Mu can be played as a torps boat and beat Yuugumo which is supposed to be the best torps boat. And all these ship don't have to only rely on their torps, they can also use their guns.

Maybe this nerf was justified in the past but now, with the amount of radar and hydro ship the game has,  IJN need buffs on their torps.

 

2 hours ago, Ulthwey said:

 

For every 1x person complaining about IJN DDs beingn weak there are about 5x people complaining the torp spam ruining the game. Developers would much rather find a way to shut those 5x people up, than bother pleasing the 1x person who needs to learn how to play.

 

Once again who are these people complaining about these "torps spam" ? BB player. It's ok for a BB to spam every 30-26 sec his broken AP shell but when it comes to DD, dropping 8 torps every 1 min and 20 sec is totally broken ? 

It's ok for cruiser player, DD player and CV player to get deleted in 1 salvo by a BB but it's unacceptable for a BB to get deleted by 1 torps salvo of a DD, cruiser or CV ?

When a cruiser, DD or CV get deleted and ask WG for nerf, they are being told to "git gud" and deal with it, but when a BB cry WG listen to their grievance and adapt the game for them ?

 

This is clearly what WG is doing. They said they know there is an overpopulation of BB and they are working on this issue. This overpopulation could have been fixed by a simple way : buffing IJN torps. But instead they added a second US line with Deep Water Torps as a mean to counter this BB population. Did it worked ? No, we still have a lot of BB in queue.

You may argue "If Pan Asia didn't solved the overpopulation of BB how buffing IJN could have been different?" . The answer is simple. The line has been in the game since the start, meaning a lot of people already grinded the line. A lot of people already own a Shimakaze. By buffing IJN DD they would have solved this BB issue while making former IJN DD player who left the game come back and probably buy more stuff. 

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Dr_Venture    1,619

When the IJN DD reigned supreme it tended to produce a higher caliber of player from a crossed all of the ship types. You had to learn how to hunt them in a battleship, you had to play smart. IJN DD's were straight up BULL**** with their practical cloaking device and torpedoes that couldn't be seen until they were practically in your hull. Anyone from CBT and a few patches after could tell you the same thing. Now we have a player base who A.) didn't experience their true terror B.) Radar wasn't a thing C.) Mogami/Des Moines/Cleveland where about the only things that could hunt them and shred them rapidly...but then again you HAD TO SEE THEM FIRST.

If you want an example, run into someone seal clubbing with the Minekaze clones that haven't been nurfed. 

This was also before invisfire nurfing. 

The line when it was nurfed, was nurfed for that reason. HOWEVER the times have changed, the meta has evolved to the point where we might warrant looking at the IJN lines and seeing what can be done about them. I'm all for buffs when buffs are do, but they need to be made for the right reasons. An evolving meta might warrant looking at them again, with radar/sonar everywhere I frankly don't fear IJN DD's period. I just finished the USN cruiser grind and I feared the Fletcher and Gearing FAR more.

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usspaul3    27

in all honesty the IJN dds need to see more nerfs then buffs. They are Too strong for what they really were. Garbage boats.  Plain and simple fact is IJN dds deserves to be the worst line in game. Where Real DDs from other lines should recieve buffs. Lets face it this forum is infested with weebos who want the IJN line to be far better in this game than they where. Hell the IJN dds where joke dds compaired to the other nations and even minor nations of the ww2 period. So let them be a joke in this game and give them more nerfs because face it they are overperforming, they should be doing 20k less then any other nations dds. The only thing they should be good for is spotting for other ships and thats it, infact they should get a a hell of a lot more detonations placed on them for there torpedo focus.  There guns should be nerfed more reduce there damage , ROF and increase how long it takes them to turn.  Do all that and i think more people in game would be happy. Only the hard core weebos would play the joke dds while  most players will play the real dds that are of the other lines.

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Sventex    931
1 hour ago, Dr_Venture said:

When the IJN DD reigned supreme it tended to produce a higher caliber of player from a crossed all of the ship types. You had to learn how to hunt them in a battleship, you had to play smart. IJN DD's were straight up BULL**** with their practical cloaking device and torpedoes that couldn't be seen until they were practically in your hull. Anyone from CBT and a few patches after could tell you the same thing. Now we have a player base who A.) didn't experience their true terror B.) Radar wasn't a thing C.) Mogami/Des Moines/Cleveland where about the only things that could hunt them and shred them rapidly...but then again you HAD TO SEE THEM FIRST.

If you want an example, run into someone seal clubbing with the Minekaze clones that haven't been nurfed. 

This was also before invisfire nurfing. 

The line when it was nurfed, was nurfed for that reason. HOWEVER the times have changed, the meta has evolved to the point where we might warrant looking at the IJN lines and seeing what can be done about them. I'm all for buffs when buffs are do, but they need to be made for the right reasons. An evolving meta might warrant looking at them again, with radar/sonar everywhere I frankly don't fear IJN DD's period. I just finished the USN cruiser grind and I feared the Fletcher and Gearing FAR more.

I would gladly give up the IJN high torpedo damage if the torps could just be a bit more stealthy, ensure I could at least land a hit like I do with my Fletcher.  But that would be a further departure from history.  Then again, these bumbling long-lance torpedoes aren't exactly historical.

6 minutes ago, usspaul3 said:

in all honesty the IJN dds need to see more nerfs then buffs. They are Too strong for what they really were. Garbage boats.  Plain and simple fact is IJN dds deserves to be the worst line in game. Where Real DDs from other lines should recieve buffs. Lets face it this forum is infested with weebos who want the IJN line to be far better in this game than they where. Hell the IJN dds where joke dds compaired to the other nations and even minor nations of the ww2 period. So let them be a joke in this game and give them more nerfs because face it they are overperforming, they should be doing 20k less then any other nations dds. The only thing they should be good for is spotting for other ships and thats it, infact they should get a a hell of a lot more detonations placed on them for there torpedo focus.  There guns should be nerfed more reduce there damage , ROF and increase how long it takes them to turn.  Do all that and i think more people in game would be happy. Only the hard core weebos would play the joke dds while  most players will play the real dds that are of the other lines.

These "garbage boats" you refer too were armed with the most powerful torpedoes of it's day.  Wreak the quality of the boats if you want, but these long lance torpedoes should reflect history with their range, stealth and power.

Edited by Sventex

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