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Sventex

Debunking Flamu's Garbage Dunkerque Advice

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Even since Flamu posted his "Dunkerque - How To Deal With T8 MM" video, I've been face-palming in disbelief.  The Dunkerque is one of Flamu's least played ships and least favorite ships, and it show by how he plays the ship all kinds of wrong and offers advice that can even be considered dangerous.  So let's go through Flamu's lessons one by one and see what potential damage he's caused to new players with his video.

"So of course, it's low caliber guns, umm, the damage is lower as well. -  This is no damage monster"

The Dunkerque is tied with the Fuso in having the fastest firing Battleship guns at tier 6.  The ship also sports so incredibly potent HE shells with tremendous muzzle velocity allowing long range targets to be hit with reliability (even broadside destroyers), and the all forward gun design and fast turret traverse ensures that the RPM will rarely be interrupted.  The guns only have low damage when you ram the ship into an island and are unable to target any ships like Flamu does here.

"A common mistake that many Dunkerque captains make is they think it is a Yamato, they think it is a North Carolina, they think it is a ship capable of parking nose-in duking it out.  Now the Dunkerque can't even do this against tier 6s."

"So your not going to be tanking anything in this thing"

Not counting CVs, only 10% of ships in the tier 6 - 8 matchmaking have guns that can overmatch the bow armor on the Dunkerque, to say the ship can't bow tank is a gross miscalculation.  Bow tanking is one of Dunkerque's greatest assets and Flamu here is needlessly throwing that asset away.  In the replay provided below, you can see that in a Tier 8 match, out of the 5 enemy Battleships, only one had the guns large enough to overmatch my Dunkerque's bow.  For Flamu to think that the ship can't even tank at tier 6 is beyond belief. Even against shells that can overmatch, going bow-on presents a far smaller profile ensure fewer shells will hit you, which is in essence providing protection.  Other Battleships will have to show some broadside in order to utilize their full firepower against you, offering a larger target and exposing all of the fire hardpoints of their ship.  Also cruisers and destroyers often will have their shells shatter against the bow at close range, which is still tanking.

"You'll notice I was angled, trying to eat it [15" shells] on my broadside armor"

Flamu's tactic here is dubious as he tries to present a larger target to his enemy (a Tirpitz in brawling range no less) and he ends up taking heavy damage for it.  You want the shells to miss entirely so charging in against a top tier German Battleship and angling was an extremely poor tactical decision.  Don't let the enemy play to their strengths, the Dunkerque has the speed to avoid these situations.

"One of the key points of this is keeping on the move.  -  How do you play it?  You keep on the move.  You have to keep on the move"

"One of my main lessons when playing the Dunkerque is never stop in the open.  Being caught in the open and sitting still is a death sentence"

This is one of the most questionable lessons that Flamu gives in his video.  The Dunkerque is a very large target with a vulnerable broadside, moving forward when bottom tier is offering the enemy a juicy target.  What you want to do in the Dunkerque is manage the enemy player's target priority.  If your sitting at long range, and the enemy Battleship has numerous ships at closer range shooting at it, it's going to prioritize them over you because they are a greater thread and offer more dps to them.  If your needlessly zipping around broadside at long-mid range, your going to present the enemy with a juicy DPS opportunity, and if you just charge in against tier 8 ships, your going to be outflanked and overpowered.  The Dunkerque's speed and mobility is best used in the end game, when most other ships are dead.  The Dunkerque is extremely dangerous against 90% of ships (in tier 6-8 MM) because they are incapable of overmatching her bow, which makes the ship one of the best carry Premium Battleships in the game and probably excellent practice for the Richelieu.

"Amusingly, one of the strengths of the ship, which is having all gun on the forward part of the ship, is actually a bit of a weakness."

No...just no.

"The secondaries have very awkward angles, you need to give far too much broadside to be able to efficiently use them.  The secondaries in general are not recommendable"

The Dunkerque has in effect, 2 Gearings strapped to the back of the ship with twelve 5" guns that can be used without the need to show any broadside.  It has been the mistake of many DD captains to try and attack a Dunkerque from behind, thinking that is the blind spot.  Note in my replay, that against the Loyang that attempted to attack me from behind, ended up sacrificing himself against my secondary guns in exchange for a single torpedo hit, my forward main battery was not needed.

"If you have the lowest AP damage, umm the lowest AP alpha, all of these things also having the same reload as the other ships, really isn't that much fun."

Flamu throughout his video complains about the Dunkerque AP shells several times, but like a potato he only ever uses those AP shells for 97% of the match.  He never connects the dots that maybe he shouldn't use AP, and he never discusses the power of the Dunkerque's HE shells and end up throwing away another of the ship's greatest assets with it's high fire %.  Another problem with the Dunkerque's AP shell is that the tremendous muzzle velocity gives the shells the nasty habit of over-penetrating on fully broadside targets.  Reliability in damage comes from the Dunkerque's HE shells, even against enemy cruisers.  The AP shells require the enemy cruisers and even some battleships to angle in order for their armor to "catch" the AP shells, which means only using AP for select situations.

"I do run concealment expert on this ship, and that ability to disengage is so-so important on this ship"

Flamu yoloed right into the enemy and was never in a position for his concealment expert skill to help him disengage, so he effectively wasted 4 points on his captain.  The Dunkerque strength comes from it's ability to maintain maximum RPM from it's main battery, which would be wasting another asset of the ship by trying to conceal this ship that can be spotted from the Andromeda Galaxy. (credit to Nozoupforyou for that analogy)  By the 6:30 mark of his video, he's already 10km away from an enemy Battleship, concealment expert is worthless when yoloing.

"The Scharnhorst, I play it very similarly"

This is where the biggest error in his match, twice in his showcase battle, Flamu goes full potato and brawls with 2 separate Tirpitz.  One of which actually kills him after he tells his team "Don't die, and we win".  I cannot stress enough that the Dunkerque is not a German Battleship, it does not brawl well with other German Battleships.  Do not play to the enemies strengths.  The Dunkerque high velocity shells enable it to effectively target ships at long range, so it becomes important when bottom tier to not charge at the top tier Battleships.

 

This is how to play the Dunkerque in T8 MM.

 

Flamu's advice is to always keep moving, that "being caught in the open and sitting still is a death sentence", but note how I do not stray far from my spawn point in the first 10 minutes of the match.  I operate out in the open, but I keep a healthy distance away from the enemy to ensure I am never outflanked.  Anyone whose played a RN BB knows that HE is best employed at mid-range, and that it's important to manage the distance between you and the enemy fleet.  Even at bottom tier,  I'm causing considerable damage by sitting back while also disrupting the enemies attempt to take the caps and setting fires.  It's only at the halfway point, where the team if outnumbered 6:3 and the caps are in danger that I put the Dunkerque's speed to use.  At this point, the enemy team no longer have any ships that can overmatch my bow, and thus the Dunkerque can play to it's own strengths and have unfair fights with the other ships, picking them off one by one and racking up the metals.  That's my advice for T8 battles with the Dunkerque, wait it out, let the higher tier ships duke it out with each other until they've destroyed each other, then move in to wreak havoc.  The Dunkerque is very strong against Destroyers and Cruisers at any tier, and will earn bonus points of sinking these higher tier ships, so you want to give yourself the best possible chance at taking them out.  So don't go full potato and brawl with a bunch of Tirpitzs like Flamu here.

Edited by Sventex
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I use this as Dunkerque advice, kappa. As far as things go, it's surprisingly similar. 

 

EDIT: Yes, I know Yuro made one for the Dunkerque. Personally I've found the Moskva one better when you're uptiered.

 

Edited by DaryaKonstantin

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I think it's a pretty interesting perspective and some good points raised and backed up by gameplay video example. Sadly Flamu chose to fallback to stat shaming instead of actually discussing points raised. Now your counter review does come off a little personal as well at times so I guess this childish reaction might be not too surprising....

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On 1/13/2018 at 8:58 AM, RenamedUser_1022363587 said:

Moderated by Mezurashi.

and stat shaming, which, iirc, is against forum rules

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On 1/13/2018 at 9:08 AM, FlyinAlex said:

I think it's a pretty interesting perspective and some good points raised and backed up by gameplay video example. Sadly Flamu chose to fallback to stat shaming instead of actually discussing points raised. Now your counter review does come off a little personal as well at times so I guess this childish reaction might be not too surprising....

Eh, I highly doubt that's actually Flamu. He'd be using a similar username probably and if using a generic one to avoid being specifically targeted, he wouldn't reveal such a thing here, as that would give up the game.

On 1/13/2018 at 8:58 AM, RenamedUser_1022363587 said:

Moderated by Mezurashi.

On the other hand, this does strike me as something he'd say, and this users stats are good enough to qualify. So really not sure...

iVAIOjl.jpg

 

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Flamu I like your videos but do you have to be such an elitist [edited]? Please stop doing stuff like stat shaming it’s beneath you

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On 1/13/2018 at 8:58 AM, RenamedUser_1022363587 said:

Moderated by Mezurashi.

LOL, That's the second time you've tried to stat shame me.  I think Phoenix jz summed that up best:

"I'm not saying your style is wrong or anything, but lording your stats over someone else's isn't exactly a good way of going about an argument... especially as every one of his nearly 150 games was solo, whereas you only have... what, less than 20?"

uWxXK4T.jpg

Somebody has to save the players from you.

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1 hour ago, Sventex said:

 

Not counting CVs, only 10% of ships in the tier 6 - 8 matchmaking have guns that can overmatch the bow armor on the Dunkerque,.

Ships that overmatch dunkerques bow armour at tier 6 to 8:

Warspite, Bayern, Nagato, Mutsu, Hood, Colorado, gneisenau, North Carolina, Amagi, tirpitz, Bismarck, Roma, Monarch.

Ships that will not overmatch the bow between tier 6 to 8: 

Arizona, New Mexico, Dunkerque, King George V, Duke of York, Scharnhorst, All cruisers, all destroyers.

 

If you're being pedantic and including every other line then yes probably 10% but if you're talking about battleships, anything with 358mm and above guns ignore the bow angle. Which isnt 10% of the available battleships between tier 8 to 6

Edited by Arlios
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Eh, take some, leave some. I think both you and Flamu had good and bad points.

He's right in that you want to use her speed and positioning ability. However, that's not saying to yolo in with said speed and get yourself killed. It just means that you have the flexibility to reposition quite easily and with little hassle.  

He's also right in that you don't want to bow tank with her. See, with bow tanking, you're only really protecting yourself against battleships unable to overmatch your bow. With the Dunkerque, half the battleships at her own tier can overmatch, and almost every battleship higher tiered can do the same. You don't bow tank against cruisers unless you are moving directly towards them, since sitting still and trying to tank only makes you an easier target for them. 

For the AP v HE debacle, I personally really like the ship's AP, and will often use it over her HE—which is used only as a fallback against higher tiered, heavily armoured or angled battleships. Anything else, AP is my ammo of choice.  

Edited by RivertheRoyal

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11 minutes ago, Arlios said:

Warspite, Bayern, Nagato, Mutsu, Colorado, North Carolina, Amagi, tirpitz, Bismarck, Roma, Monarch

 

If you're being pedantic and including every other line then yes probably 10% but if you're talking about battleships, anything with 358mm guns can be autobounced by the bow. Which is 90% of the available battleships between tier 8 to 6

Battleships aren't the only ships in the game, it's Flamu that's being pedantic.  If you want to talk about only Battleships, that's New Mexico, Fuso, Arizona,  Scharnhorst,  King George V,  Duke of York and Dunkerque that can't overmatch.  I'm not counting Roma since it's not in the game yet.  So that's 10 of your ships vs 7 that can't overmatch the bow on the Dunkerque, which is far more then your statistic of 90% of tier 6-8 Battleships.

Edited by Sventex

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25 minutes ago, bubbleboy264 said:

Flamu I like your videos but do you have to be such an elitist [edited]? Please stop doing stuff like stat shaming it’s beneath you

Unfortunately that's how he was raised. When you've spent so much of your life as a failure and you find fame on YouTube it goes to your head. 

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14 minutes ago, RivertheRoyal said:

Eh, take some, leave some. I think both you and Flamu had good and bad points.

He's right in that you want to use her speed and positioning ability. However, that's not saying to yolo in with said speed and get yourself killed. It just means that you have the flexibility to reposition quite easily and with little hassle.  

He's also right in that you don't want to bow tank with her. See, with bow tanking, you're only really protecting yourself against battleships unable to overmatch your bow. With the Dunkerque, half the battleships at her own tier can overmatch, and almost every battleship higher tiered can do the same. You don't bow tank against cruisers unless you are moving directly towards them, since sitting still and trying to tank only makes you an easier target for them. 

For the AP v HE debacle, I personally really like the ship's AP, and will often use it over her HE—which is used only as a fallback against higher tiered, heavily armoured or angled battleships. Anything else, AP is my ammo of choice.  

At the very least, in Flamu's supposed Dunkerque guide, he should have mentioned the Dunkerque's HE shells.

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Full disclosure: I haven't watched vids yet.

 

I always run into issues when posting YouTube vids here. At least a few peeps here and there have personal issues with Flamu, Notser, iChase, etc..

If you don't like their content, then don't watch them.

Each Tuber has a different spin on things, but the majority are pretty close to each other.

Whining on a forum isn't gonna do much for you 

As far as stat shaming goes... It's been said that if everyone ridiculed fat ppl  publicly, obesity would disappear.

Simmer down Snowflake..

 

 

 

Edited by Wulfgarn
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3 minutes ago, Wulfgarn said:

Full disclosure: I haven't watched vids yet.

 

I always run into issues when posting YouTube vids here. At least a few peeps here and there have personal issues with Flamu, Notser, iChase, etc..

If you don't like their content, then don't watch them.

Each Tuber has a different spin on things, but the majority are pretty close to each other.

Whining on a forum isn't gonna do much for you 

As far as stat shaming goes... It's been said that if everyone ridiculed fat ppl  publicly, obesity would disappear..

 

Stat padding doesn't make terrible advice magically good either.  Ever since Flamu tried to stat shame me, he's been begging for me to deconstruct his videos.

Edited by Sventex

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I generally like Flamu's content though I can honestly say he doesn't view the game from the same perspective I do and has a tendency to offer commentary from a very ridged preconception of things.  What I mean by that is that if Flamu goes into it thinking a ship is bad or has some flaw, he tends to create that deficiency or flaw himself and use that to justify his perception of the deficiency or flaw.  In general if he doesn't like something, he tends to do his best to make sure you don't like it either.  Still in general Flamu's content is pretty good and alot of his advice is very much on the money.  I will even say I have learned quite a few things from him myself.  It is just when he doesn't like something that you have to stop the video and say to yourself, "It's just Flamu, being Flamu" and go look at other community contributors content to get a different perspective.

The Dunkerque is a pretty darn good BB if used right, just make sure your not following Flamu's advice on how to do it right on this one.

 

 

 

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On 1/13/2018 at 8:58 AM, RenamedUser_1022363587 said:

Moderated by Mezurashi.

If it's stats you're concerned about, let's get the person who was, as of August, third in server average for Dunkerque, @Rolkatsuki. Granted, they're only seeing T7s maximum here, but they still tank over 2 Million Potential Damage through auto-bounce and damage saturation mechanics... and most of it while bow-in.  "You're not going to be tanking anything" isn't really applicable.

On 1/13/2018 at 9:56 AM, Wulfgarn said:

As far as stat shaming goes... It's been said that if everyone ridiculed fat ppl  publicly, obesity would disappear.

Ridiculing fat people was very common where I came from. However, obesity was still very prevalent. It's too much of that "Southern Cooking" with too little restraint.
See, ridiculing fat people doesn't make them be not fat; in fact, it can make some stress-eat, which makes them more fat. And, if you ridicule fat people but mark-up the costs of all the healthy foods to hell and back, then you just get a bunch of fat people who can't afford the healthy foods. And, when you combine that with the critical lack of crossroads on dangerous intersections and an overall lack of road-law enforcement in my hometown, then you get people who can't afford to eat healthy and can't adequately exercise because the people who come down the roads just fly through like a bat out of Hell, with no regard to the safety of others.

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1 minute ago, Wulfgarn said:

As far as stat shaming goes... It's been said that if everyone ridiculed fat ppl  publicly, obesity would disappear..

I don't think stat shaming and obesity are related—even in the context you're trying to spin. 

 

For one, there will always be terrible players. It's a fact of life. Someone has to be at the bottom of the heap. 

Now, I'm all for helping those guys improve. But shaming them about being at the bottom of the heap makes about as much sense as insulting your server at a restaurant for working a low end job. It's just not productive, and often leads to spit in your food. I don't know about you, but I like my food spit free, and my games free of toxic crap like stat shaming and the arguments which invariably follow. 

If you want people to get better, insulting or shaming them isn't the way of going about it, just as making fun of a fat person will normally end in a fight.

 

It's because people need an impetus to get better. Something from within. Not just an angry internet rando yelling at them.    

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I like the Dunkerque myself and although my stats aren't that good in her they are above my average by 5% only 104 battles though. I must admit when I watched Flamu's Dunkerque video I shut it off about halfway through. I didn't need to hear how bad a ship that I liked was. I seem to do well on a lot of not so liked ships though. As for the bickering can you take it to Redit where it belongs.

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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38 minutes ago, Sventex said:

Battleships aren't the only ships in the game, it's Flamu that's being pedantic.  If you want to talk about only Battleships, that's New Mexico, Fuso, Arizona,  Scharnhorst,  King George V,  Duke of York and Dunkerque that can't overmatch.  I'm not counting Roma since it's not in the game yet.  So that's 10 of your ships vs 7 that can't overmatch the bow on the Dunkerque, which is far more then your statistic of 90% of tier 6-8 Battleships.

The problem here is dunkerque is a poor fighter against bbs of her tier or higher, she stands a better chance against lower tier bbs. More often than not the dunkerque will run into a bb that will overmatch the bow, the average brit bb spams HE anyways so we can rule them out for firing ap, which their HE ignores bow armour because 1/4 memes.

When overmatched going for autobounce on the side armour helps prevent citadel damage at short ranges, similar to cruisers, you slightly angle your citadel front which decreases the chances of a bow on citadel and it's a slightly smaller target to hit.

Her accuracy is pretty dubious. With a below average sigma and large dispersion radius, it makes getting closer a preferred tactic, but that is contradicted by her huge detection range and lack of toughness the other battleships have and they are all much more accurate.

Cruisers and dds won't fire ap into any battleship unless they have a broadside or they have ascended potato, unless it's a brit cruiser. Why you're including them I don't even know why.

If I had to pick between any tier 6 premium battleship to buy, Dunkerque will be the last ship I consider, there are way better tier 6 premium battleships ships for her price. Even Mutsu is mediocre but I find her better than the dunkeroo. 

Edited by Arlios
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3 minutes ago, Arlios said:

The problem here is dunkerque is a poor fighter against bbs of her tier or higher, she stands a better chance against lower tier bbs. More often than not the dunkerque will run into a bb that will overmatch the bow, the average brit bb spams HE anyways so we can rule them out for firing ap, which their HE ignores bow armour because 1/4 memes.

When overmatched going for autobounce on the side armour helps prevent citadel damage at short ranges, similar to cruisers, you slightly angle your citadel front which decreases the chances of a bow on citadel and it's a slightly smaller target to hit.

Her accuracy is pretty dubious. With a below average sigma and large dispersion radius, it makes getting closer a preferred tactic, but that is contradicted by her huge detection range and lack of toughness the other battleships have and they are all much more accurate.

 If you can manage to get that bow fully saturated, though... you're pretty-well set-up, as people are gonna keep spamming HE at you and dealing peanuts for damage while you fire right back with full effect. She also gets ridiculous muzzle velocity, meaning that she is one of the few T6 battleships which can citadel a Bismarck at mid-range despite not having large shells.

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