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Grflrgl

Z-23 Setup Question

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Good morning, everyone.

 

I recently got the Z-23, and I have to admit that I'm struggling a bit. I've won only 2 of my 10 games so far, and I feel like something is off. I did very well with the Geade and Maass, but I must be missing something with the Z-23.

 

I run this mainly as a torpedo boat with guns, rather than a gunboat with torpedoes. 

 

I'm running the 150's, on Hull B, with the upgraded torps and upgraded fire control system.

 

I've got Main Armament 1, Propulsion Mod 1, Aiming Systems Mod 1, Propulsion Mod 2, and Concealment Systems.

 

The captain is is 15 points, using: PT & PM for level 1; LS for level 2; TAE and Super for level 3; and CE for level 4.

 

My concealment is marked as 6.2, and I seem to be out-spotted by everything afloat. I've spent a lot of time on Tier X games, bathed in radar, and with enemy airplanes constantly buzzing about overhead. But even when there's no radar or planes in the area, I'm still out-spotted by other DDs.

 

I'm not rushing caps, but trying to get into them from the flanks after enemy DD's have given away their positions. But I am getting absolutely chopped-up early and often. 

 

 I really like the way Torpedo Armament Expertise is working so far. I'm seriously thinking of stepping down to the 128's (I got out-shot by an Akatsuki in the last game I played). I'm thinking of reworking the skipper too, and going with DE instead of Super (I'm already running premium consumables, I think).

 

Any suggestions?

 

Edited by Grflrgl

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16 minutes ago, Grflrgl said:

Good morning, everyone.

 

I recently got the Z-23, and I have to admit that I'm struggling a bit. I've won only 2 of my 10 games so far, and I feel like something is off. I did very well with the Geade and Maass, but I must be missing something with the Z-23.

 

I run this mainly as a torpedo boat with guns, rather than a gunboat with torpedoes. 

 

I'm running the 150's, on Hull B, with the upgraded torps and upgraded fire control system.

 

I've got Main Armament 1, Propulsion Mod 1, Aiming Systems Mod 1, Propulsion Mod 2, and Concealment Systems.

 

The captain is is 15 points, using: PT & PM for level 1; LS for level 2; TAE and Super for level 3; and CE for level 4.

 

My concealment is marked as 6.2, and I seem to be out-spotted by everything afloat. I've spent a lot of time on Tier X games, bathed in radar, and with enemy airplanes constantly buzzing about overhead. But even when there's no radar or planes in the area, I'm still out-spotted by other DDs.

 

I'm not rushing caps, but trying to get into them from the flanks after enemy DD's have given away their positions. But I am getting absolutely chopped-up early and often. 

 

 I really like the way Torpedo Armament Expertise is working so far. I'm seriously thinking of stepping down to the 128's (I got out-shot by an Akatsuki in the last game I played). I'm thinking of reworking the skipper too, and going with DE instead of Super (I'm already running premium consumables, I think).

 

Any suggestions?

 

z-23 has really bad detect...... its so bad akizuki without CE out spots you :C but honestly just use it for torps. the guns are just complete garbage.

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Always take survival expert on your DD. Dump SI, you can add DE if you have the points later.

PM, LS, SE, CE should always be your first 10 points. Definitely use the 150s. 

You have the right idea using it as torp boat with situational guns. Try to force DCP on battleships with torps then smoke and light them on fire with insane fire chance of the 150s. 

You can also play DD support role, follow a stealthy DD into a cap rather than going to a cap on your own.

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Z-23 will mainly be a torp boat. (Can't knife fight other dds reliably bc of the rof on the 150s and the lack of volume on the 128s). Would recommend captain skill's as follows: pm,ls,se,ce,ar,si (super intendant), rl. Would take si bc the extra hydro, smoke, and boost can come in handy. Would also take rl just for the extra info. Extremely valuable. You can sub in bft and si (situitional awareness) for rl if you don't like the skill. This line won't quite shine until the z-46, so hang in there.

Edited by eagle_lance

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On 1/12/2018 at 9:44 AM, Grflrgl said:

Good morning, everyone.

 

I recently got the Z-23, and I have to admit that I'm struggling a bit. I've won only 2 of my 10 games so far, and I feel like something is off. I did very well with the Geade and Maass, but I must be missing something with the Z-23.

 

I run this mainly as a torpedo boat with guns, rather than a gunboat with torpedoes. 

 

I'm running the 150's, on Hull B, with the upgraded torps and upgraded fire control system.

 

I've got Main Armament 1, Propulsion Mod 1, Aiming Systems Mod 1, Propulsion Mod 2, and Concealment Systems.

 

The captain is is 15 points, using: PT & PM for level 1; LS for level 2; TAE and Super for level 3; and CE for level 4.

 

My concealment is marked as 6.2, and I seem to be out-spotted by everything afloat. I've spent a lot of time on Tier X games, bathed in radar, and with enemy airplanes constantly buzzing about overhead. But even when there's no radar or planes in the area, I'm still out-spotted by other DDs.

 

I'm not rushing caps, but trying to get into them from the flanks after enemy DD's have given away their positions. But I am getting absolutely chopped-up early and often. 

 

 I really like the way Torpedo Armament Expertise is working so far. I'm seriously thinking of stepping down to the 128's (I got out-shot by an Akatsuki in the last game I played). I'm thinking of reworking the skipper too, and going with DE instead of Super (I'm already running premium consumables, I think).

 

Any suggestions?

 

Hey

I feel your pain; so far, I am not really enjoying this boat much.  I put the steering gears mod on but this thing is so sluggish, the 150's are OK, but nothing to write home about especially if your fighting another DD, the torps are good but the reload is kind of long, sluggish turrets, very slow to get moving from a stop (I realize you lose a bit without propulsion 2), the whole boat seem rather Meh.  At T7, the Blyskawica and the Leningrad are much better boats that would seem better at T8 than the Z23, at least for me.  The Hydro is ok, but I have that on my LoYang.  Struggling to find the sweet spot with this boat.  Plus, I only have a 12pt captain with 2 pts. not used.  Pt, LS, SI, CE on capt.

Pete 

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I like my Z-23.

The key here is that you take SE, and accept that you'll take damage. With that in mind, you absolutely can bully any other DD (except T10s or the Z-46) in a knife-fight. ESPECIALLY if you mount the 150s. 

You just have to retrain yourself from instantly mashing a WASD key when you get detected by another DD. Yes, you're typically out-spotted by about 500m. But that 500m often goes right away because both you and your enemy are on closing bearings, and the render time between being spotted and closing that distance effectively voids any advantage the more stealthy ship has (yeah, I know this, because I'm regularly on the crappy end of that stupid bug in my IJN DDs). 

I just find that accepting that you should be a bully in your attitude towards other DDs is the right one with the Z-23.  Subtlety is NOT the way to go.   Detected? Pour on the speed and counter-detect!  You've got your smoke and hydro too, so if that DD decides to fight, well, you pop smoke once they're inside 4km, and they're screwed.

The main thing here is to make sure you have an escape route mapped out BEFORE you DD brawl.  You need to know where to escape to once you've killed your opponent. Because they have friends. 


Honestly, all the problems that the Maass had with detection are the same in the Z-23, but not any worse, and you're better equipped to deal with them in the Z-23. I mean, the Maass has a 6.8km concealment, and it regularly sees T8 and T9 DDs that can out-spot it by 1km or more.  If you dealt well in the Maass, I can't see why the Z-23 would be anything but better.

 

For the record, here's my Z-23 captain build (same modules as the OP), in the order I take them:

  1. PM
  2. LS
  3. SE
  4. CE
  5. AR
  6. SI
  7. IFHE

I love me the TAE, but AR is better, since you'll be fighting wounded most of the time (remember, that comes with being a bully), and it helps your guns as well as your torps.  And I take SI over TAE because the extra smoke is just so useful - heck, I always pay for Premium Smoke, too.  I'd love to have PT, but the other stuff is more important, and it would be my 20th point if I was allowed.

 


I really don't get people who mount the 128mm for their ROF on the Z-23.  Sure, you're talking about 4 seconds vs 6.7 second reload. BUT I GET ANOTHER GUN (on the front, too, where it's most useful), as well as a 45% per-hit damage bump.  If I'm shooting 5 shells per salvo, I'm darned more likely to get MORE hits than shooting 4 shells per salvo, and you're not gonna get that many more salvos in.  That is, if you're lucky, you'll get 6 salvos for my 4 (before someone dies). That's 24 shots vs 20 shots, and I'm doing almost half again the damage per shot with the 150mm.  Moreover, the turrets move equally slow for both the 128 and 150, so it's not like you'll be getting more advantageous positioning for the higher ROF of the 128.  If you can't hit well with the 150, you're not gonna be doing any better with the 128.

And the 150mm are SOOOO much more useful when shooting at BBs or CAs. Again, no matter what you do, you're not a US DD that sits in their smoke for 2 minutes lobbing shells out. No, you shoot off a couple of salvos, then move on. So again, if I've got 40 seconds to sit in my smoke and pound a CA, that lets me put 30 150mm shells out, vs 40 128mm; this gives the 150mm a 10% better damage output (minimum, since it's really far higher due to MUCH better penetration ratio), plus a 360% vs 240% fire chance (cumulative) advantage.

The 150mm are just vastly superior on the Z-23:  massively bigger HE Alpha, fire chance, and penetration over the 128mm, and a total volume of fire that's barely 25% less (and, in practice, even less). Heck, even though the 128mm has pretty close to the 150mm's damage with AP, the 150mm severely out-DPMs it due to the massively higher number of penetrations it can force.

Heck, slap IFHE on the 150mm, and you can pen the bow & stern of every BB you'll see, and every part of every CA except their belt armor. DPM on a Z-23 with IFHE is insane - 3k per volley is what it does ALL the time.

 

  • Cool 2

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Hey

I haven't had it out yet but did switch the Steering gears upgrade and added the propulsion mod.  Will see if it help with the sluggish get up and go.

 

Pete

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Good choice. Z-23's rudder shift isn't what lets it down, as much as the sluggish rate of turn and the large turn radius that results. The W and A portions of your WASD hax are thus very valuable, and the propulsion mod is a better choice because of that. Propulsion mod is a better choice on almost all destroyers, I find.

--Helms

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2 hours ago, thehelmsman said:

Good choice. Z-23's rudder shift isn't what lets it down, as much as the sluggish rate of turn and the large turn radius that results. The W and A portions of your WASD hax are thus very valuable, and the propulsion mod is a better choice because of that. Propulsion mod is a better choice on almost all destroyers, I find.

--Helms

Hey

I normally run the propulsion mod on my DD's but then found the German rudders are rather sluggish and thought maybe steering gears would help like they do with the German cruisers but will certainly give it another try with propulsion mod.  Especially when in smoke but I was thinking a torp boat is going to be moving most of the time anyways.  I did find the 150's do quite a number on cruisers, but when I ran the Gaede, I liked the 128's better than the 150's.  At T8; I still like the LoYang or the Kidd better.

 

Pete

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On 4/12/2018 at 10:01 AM, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

I normally run the propulsion mod on my DD's but then found the German rudders are rather sluggish and thought maybe steering gears would help like they do with the German cruisers but will certainly give it another try with propulsion mod.  Especially when in smoke but I was thinking a torp boat is going to be moving most of the time anyways.  I did find the 150's do quite a number on cruisers, but when I ran the Gaede, I liked the 128's better than the 150's.  At T8; I still like the LoYang or the Kidd better.

 

Pete

The 128s are better than the 150s on the Gaeda.  It doesn't get the extra gun that you do on the Z-23 when you upgrade to the 150s, and thus, the 150s are a straight ROF trade for Alpha Strike. And it's a pretty harsh trade, too: you lose almost half your ROF. 

Basically, taking the 150s on the Gaeda means you lose most of the ability to gunfight other DDs, while improving your anti-CA and anti-BB capability somewhat.  I didn't find that a good trade at T6.

But in the Z-23, there's no such downside for moving to the 150mm - you take a much smaller ROF reduction (from 60 to 45 shots/min) in exchange for a good-sized DPM and huge Alpha Strike upgrade. Totally worth it.

 

I liked the propulsion mod on my Z-23, as I find myself doing a lot less full-speed running than I do in other DDs.  I end up in "slow/stop/full speed NOW" situations in my Z-23 a lot, and the PMod is really helpful there.  That said, I might try the steering gears mod sometime, as I'm still having problems fighting PA DDs in close for some reason (but not US ones - go figure). 

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I do very well with Z-23 (it's my strongest t8-10 DD, 56% WR over 103 games, plus 52% over 77 games in ranked) and I run her as a DD hunter. I use the 150s, and run the standard upgrades (steering, aiming, concealment, etc.) with captain build of PT, LS, AR, DE, Super, CE. (Note that BFT and AFT do not help with the 150s.) 

There's some good advice in this thread. 

On 4/9/2018 at 1:47 PM, EAnybody said:

I like my Z-23.

The key here is that you take SE, and accept that you'll take damage. With that in mind, you absolutely can bully any other DD (except T10s or the Z-46) in a knife-fight. ESPECIALLY if you mount the 150s. 

You just have to retrain yourself from instantly mashing a WASD key when you get detected by another DD. Yes, you're typically out-spotted by about 500m. But that 500m often goes right away because both you and your enemy are on closing bearings, and the render time between being spotted and closing that distance effectively voids any advantage the more stealthy ship has (yeah, I know this, because I'm regularly on the crappy end of that stupid bug in my IJN DDs). 

I just find that accepting that you should be a bully in your attitude towards other DDs is the right one with the Z-23.  Subtlety is NOT the way to go.   Detected? Pour on the speed and counter-detect!  You've got your smoke and hydro too, so if that DD decides to fight, well, you pop smoke once they're inside 4km, and they're screwed.

The main thing here is to make sure you have an escape route mapped out BEFORE you DD brawl.  You need to know where to escape to once you've killed your opponent. Because they have friends. 


I really don't get people who mount the 128mm for their ROF on the Z-23.  Sure, you're talking about 4 seconds vs 6.7 second reload. BUT I GET ANOTHER GUN (on the front, too, where it's most useful), as well as a 45% per-hit damage bump.  If I'm shooting 5 shells per salvo, I'm darned more likely to get MORE hits than shooting 4 shells per salvo, and you're not gonna get that many more salvos in.  That is, if you're lucky, you'll get 6 salvos for my 4 (before someone dies). That's 24 shots vs 20 shots, and I'm doing almost half again the damage per shot with the 150mm.  Moreover, the turrets move equally slow for both the 128 and 150, so it's not like you'll be getting more advantageous positioning for the higher ROF of the 128.  If you can't hit well with the 150, you're not gonna be doing any better with the 128.

And the 150mm are SOOOO much more useful when shooting at BBs or CAs. Again, no matter what you do, you're not a US DD that sits in their smoke for 2 minutes lobbing shells out. No, you shoot off a couple of salvos, then move on. So again, if I've got 40 seconds to sit in my smoke and pound a CA, that lets me put 30 150mm shells out, vs 40 128mm; this gives the 150mm a 10% better damage output (minimum, since it's really far higher due to MUCH better penetration ratio), plus a 360% vs 240% fire chance (cumulative) advantage.

The 150mm are just vastly superior on the Z-23:  massively bigger HE Alpha, fire chance, and penetration over the 128mm, and a total volume of fire that's barely 25% less (and, in practice, even less). Heck, even though the 128mm has pretty close to the 150mm's damage with AP, the 150mm severely out-DPMs it due to the massively higher number of penetrations it can force.

Heck, slap IFHE on the 150mm, and you can pen the bow & stern of every BB you'll see, and every part of every CA except their belt armor. DPM on a Z-23 with IFHE is insane - 3k per volley is what it does ALL the time

I haven't used IFHE with Z-23 (I'm going to test it before ranked) but most of this is outstanding advice. 

You don't have to be stealthy, you just have to be intelligently aggressive. A lot of this comes with experience, you need the instincts to know what is around you, what is likely to be around you, and where the threats are or are likely to come from. Strive to isolate DDs; you can beat literally almost ANY t6-9 DD in a 1v1 assuming equal skill players, and many t10s. If you are spotted, close the distance and hammer them. If you're constantly jinking as you should, you wouldn't really get the max benefit from the 128's higher ROF anyway; make your salvoes count but be evasive. But...don't overextend. Sometimes it's worth it to go ahead and knock out the opposing DD even though you know you'll die right after to his friends, but most of the time, especially early game, it's better to let the DD escape if you're going to die with him. Don't tunnel vision on him and get focused down by his teammates...if you can't isolate him to limit how many of his teammates can shoot you, don't keep pursuing past the point of no return. Have an exit strategy. Depending on radar ships near you, pursue as you can but then use your smoke defensively to cover your disengagement. 

If you play smart, the only t9 or lower DDs that can 1v1 you with the odds on their side, all other things being equal, are Lo Yang (better smoke, better hydro, and better ROF at knife range gives her a slight advantage) and Z-46. 

Then play her as a torp boat mid to late game once you've eliminated DDs and secured caps, or use offensive smoke to hammer cruisers or BBs . 

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It should be noted that the Z-23 has a monstrous amount of HP. With SE, its over 22k ... at tier 8. No other DD at that tier comes remotely close. The only DD that competes is the Kidd because of Repair Party. And Kidd sacrifices torps for it.

The build I'm going for on my way up the line is PT, LS, AR, SE, SI, CE, RPF. Basically designed to hunt down DDs. Although only sitting on 13 points right now. I like the 150s though. The HE dpm is close to the same as the faster 128s (if it had a 5th gun), and the fire chance is really high.

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Top tier z23 is a monster. Just bully dds out of caps. Bottom tier I stick to second line dd support and torps. 

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My Z-23 set up

I play her like a torp boat that has excellent ability to inflict DOTs.  Floods followed up with fires or vice versa.  She has excellent torps.

Fighting DDs I find enjoyable.  The 150mm German DDs fight like the old IJN DDs with the old alpha.  Kite away, get 1-2 solid volleys in then smoke to lock in the HP trade advantage.  Know when to use AP its absolutely devastating, but it is the hardest of the German DD AP to use correctly. 

Dont be shy about using AP on broadside CA and BBs.  You have much better DPM, they cant heal it all back like fire damage. 

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