Germany's 'almost' aircraft carriers: Part 3: Weser

[dseehafer]

Greetings all,

 

   Most people know that Germany never had an operational Aircraft Carrier (though they did have a few catapult ships). Most people have heard of Graf Zeppelin, the only German carrier to reach an advanced stage of construction. But most people do not know just how many carriers Germany had planned. Before we can talk about any of these carriers we must first understand why Germany felt she needed carriers at all, and for what purpose they were needed....

   In the years leading up to WWII Germany's primary potential enemies were France and Poland (Germany was hoping to avoid war with Great Britain), of those two France was the only nation who possessed a sizeable navy. France needed a big navy, 3/4 of all of France's resources are imported by Sea. If France cannot defend her sea-lanes, she cannot survive for long in a major conflict. Germany needed specialized ships to hunt and destroy French shipping. Indeed Graf Zeppelin (and her unfinished sister) were designed to fulfill this very purpose, to hunt French shipping. They were quite literally designed to be commerce raiding Aircraft carriers. They had all the tools necessary for the job, a whopping 35kn top speed, the surface-firepower of a cruiser to be used against commerce vessels, a handful of fighters and bombers to defend herself against large enemy warships and France's only small aircraft carrier Bearn, and a catapult launching system that allowed her to launch planes in any sea condition, any wind, and any direction.

    However, France fell a lot quicker than Germany had though and Great Britain had somehow been convinced to declare war on Germany, much to Hitler's dismay. With France out of the picture, Graf Zeppelin found herself without a purpose and so construction was halted. Graf Zeppelin found a new lease on life when construction was resumed in March 1942. Why the sudden change of heart? Germany had observed how Bismarck was crippled by carrier aircraft and how Tirpitz's hunt for Convoy PQ12 had to be canceled when she came under torpedo attack from carrier aircraft. Germany saw how much of a threat carriers were to her capital ships and decided the only way to protect her capital ships was with carriers of her own. In this way, any capital ship escorted by a carrier would be theoretically protected against enemy carriers. Now Germany needed as many carriers as possible, and fast! Several ships of all walks of life were chosen for conversion. Work on several designs was started but all were soon halted and canceled after Hitler's famous hissy fit after the failure of the Battle of the Barents Sea.

 

Its been a while since the last installment of this series, been a little busy lately. Having said as much, we'll be getting back into the groove of things today with the Weser project!

 

    After the outbreak of WWII work on Germany's fourth Admiral Hipper class Heavy cruiser, Seydlitz, was slowed and priority was given to the construction of U-boats. Nevertheless, by May of 1942, the new Heavy Cruiser was 95% complete, missing only aircraft equipment, anti-aircraft guns, and radar. Despite being so close to completion, Hitler ordered that all work on Seydlitz be stopped in June of the same year and in the Fall work began on stripping the heavy cruiser down for conversion into an Aircraft Carrier. After six months of work, all that remained of Seydlitz's (now renamed Weser) upper works was her funnel and preparations were being made to move it from the center of the ship to the starboard side to make room for a flight deck. However, constant raids by allied bombers forced the Germans to move Weser from Bremen to Konigsberg. Konigsberg lacked the experienced men and materials to do any major work on Weser. In March 1944 Weser was transferred to Kiel where she could be completed but by this stage in the war, there was no longer any need for an aircraft carrier as all of Germany's capital ships were, by this time, out of the fight. Weser was towed back to Konigsberg where she remained until being scuttled in July 1945 to keep her out of the hands o the advancing Red Army.

 

Seydlitz 95% complete as a heavy cruiser

 

From above

 

 

 

Weser undergoing conversion into an aircraft carrier, only the funnel remains of the ship's upper works.

 

 

Seydlitz as she would have appeared as an Aircraft Carrier

 

 

 

   The ship would have measured 217m (711') long, would have been 21.8m (71.5') wide as the waterline and 32m (105') wide at the deck level, would have gone to a depth of 7.9m (25.9'), and would have displaced 17,139t at standard load. The ship's flight-deck would have been 197m (646.3') long and 23m (75.5') wide (usable width). Her Machinery remained unchanged and would have produced a top speed of 32.5kn at 132,000 shp through 3 screws. Range was 6,500nm at 19kn. Weser would have retained her 80mm belt and transverse bulkheads, beyond that her armor protection as a carrier is unknown (at least so far as i can tell). She was to have one 137.5m (451.1') long hangar. The hangar would have been 17m (55.8') wide forward decreasing to 12m (39.4') wide at the rear. The hangar would have been serviced by two 6.5t elevators. Aircraft compliment would have been 10-12 Bf109G and 8 Ju87D. Two catapults at the bow were responsible for putting the aircraft into the air. As designed her armament would have consisted of 5x2 105mm Sk C/37, 6x2 37mm Sk C/30, and 5x4 20mm C/38.

 

Blueprints for Weser showing Hangar storage of aircraft

 

A paper model of Weser

 

An artist's interpretation of Weser

 

A 3d model of Weser

 

 

Stay tuned for part 4!

 

Part 1 - 

 

 

Part 2 -  

 

[WanderingGhost]

Nice, still a line I'd like to see added long term, and never actually saw the pictures of her mid conversion (though I knew many of the ships the process was started). 

[SireneRacker]

Nice write-up, thank you

[Royeaux]

Wasn't the Weser the merchant ship from Das Boot?

[Ghostdog1355]

Real good article. Read about the others years ago. Thanks

[IJN_Yamato_BB17]

I feel the Germans should of completed Seydlitz as a heavy cruiser given that it would of never seen action as a carrier.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

1 hour ago, WanderingGhost said:

Nice, still a line I'd like to see added long term, and never actually saw the pictures of her mid conversion (though I knew many of the ships the process was started). 

If we can bulls--t enough to have a line of German Carriers, then the Mongolian Navy deserves one also.

 

Even better is the science fiction of making up enough fantasy German Carrier Aircraft to outfit a "German Carrier Line."

[dseehafer]

44 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

If we can bulls--t enough to have a line of German Carriers, then the Mongolian Navy deserves one also.

 

Even better is the science fiction of making up enough fantasy German Carrier Aircraft to outfit a "German Carrier Line."

A German carrier line is an inevatability once WG begins to run out of content. Hell, WOT is getting a Polish tech tree. Look at all the lines in wowp which are chalked full of paper planes and prototypes. Germany has enough carrier designs for two lines, a convert line and a purpose-built line. That's not to say that we'll get two lines, but that WG would be foolish not to take advantage of such a content rich field. A Russian carrier is being added to the game for Pete's sake! Any German convert carrier is more real than any Russian paper carrier!

[WanderingGhost]

6 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

If we can bulls--t enough to have a line of German Carriers, then the Mongolian Navy deserves one also.

 

Even better is the science fiction of making up enough fantasy German Carrier Aircraft to outfit a "German Carrier Line."

Well, lets see there's a lack of a tier 4, but hey, maybe we skip that tier. Just focus on 5-10.

There are enough ship designs based just on the conversion CV's to cover 5, 6, 7 - hard to tell if any are tier 8 material. Tier 8 and 9 depending on the other CV's can fall to GZ's "sister" that was scrapped, to the modified design they were going to apply to GZ till the rebuild that would have to be done to it scratched it, taking out the 15 cm guns for more DP guns, can't remember if it was 10.5's or more along the lines of 12.7 cm. Which also dependent on that, is the Aquila, that can be shared between Italian and Germay's tree, which the German's helped with, even donating GZ's sister's catapults to it and to which they took ownership of after Italy fell. Which, would mean only ONE CV would have to be created using the previous line ships as a basis and extrapolating. Other than the various unconfirmed designs out there. Which fits with things they've done to finish out branches in all their games, including this one with the German Tier X BB not actually being a designed ship, pretty sure France and UK have some ships that aren't exactly real in their lines, Then you have Russian ships, etc.

 

And you are completely false on having to make up fictional aircraft for carrier service. The German hierarchy was dead set on the fact that their carriers, for ease of production, should use currently existing aircraft modified for carrier operations, something the British and I think French did as well, and that the USN toyed with. On fighters, the Bf-109 variants easily cover tiers 5, 6, and 7, at tier 8 and 9, fighter variants of the Fw-190, with the tier 10 being either the Ta-152, or, giving Germany a jet aircraft/jet option that while faster, trades HP and DPS for that speed, albeit other fixes would be needed CV's have yet to get for that as well. On the Bomber front, honestly, the line shouldn't really have TB's to start with. That said, they have some options, between projects, the Ju-87, and the Fw-190. Germany should be more based around DB's, to which the Stuka easily gets you around tier 6-7 depending where you want to take it, albeit the version Wargaming currently uses on the GZ, the Ju-87c, should be a tier 6, not 7. Then, depending on where you cut off the Stuka, the ground attack variants of the Fw-190 take over, much as they did in history for the aging and ever more vulnerable Stuka. Which having fighter type aircraft with no tailgunner is nothing new in this game of attack planes, albeit they are usually a much higher tier. With tier 10 being a project that made it to beginnings of mock-up - the Ju-187 "Super Stuka" - An update of the earlier air frame with retractable gear and other aerodynamic improvement's, more powerful engine (same as the newer Fw-190's), improved armament both in offense and defense and a novel and interesting idea to have the tail rotate down out of the gunners firing line for better accuracy and less threat of damaging the aircraft yourself ala Indian Jones and the Last Crusade. But for various reasons, the project like many other German projects ended up cancelled. And even if that isn't "real" enough for some, there are still other options in single engine aircraft and given the German penchant late war of "Bigger is better" a tier X extrapolation could be the largest CV (barring the UK Ice carrier) in the game, and Germany had smaller Twin engine attack aircraft like the Ju-88 that could possibly have been converted for CV use much the same way the USN got B-25's off the deck of Hornet, and a few years later, launched and recovered a navalized B-25H from the deck of an Essex class carrier, funny enough, USS Shangri-la, so named because of the Doolittle raid and where FDR said the planes were launched from.

 

So - A German CV line makes far more practical sense than any Russian line seeing as at least half the ships physically existed to some degree of completion or conversion, and plenty of existing aircraft or aircraft projects to choose from With one, maybe two at most, truly "fake" ships needed to round it out, far from a first for Wargaming, let alone a Mongolian one.

[dseehafer]

1 hour ago, WanderingGhost said:

Well, lets see there's a lack of a tier 4, but hey, maybe we skip that tier. Just focus on 5-10.

There are enough ship designs based just on the conversion CV's to cover 5, 6, 7 - hard to tell if any are tier 8 material. Tier 8 and 9 depending on the other CV's can fall to GZ's "sister" that was scrapped, to the modified design they were going to apply to GZ till the rebuild that would have to be done to it scratched it, taking out the 15 cm guns for more DP guns, can't remember if it was 10.5's or more along the lines of 12.7 cm. Which also dependent on that, is the Aquila, that can be shared between Italian and Germay's tree, which the German's helped with, even donating GZ's sister's catapults to it and to which they took ownership of after Italy fell. Which, would mean only ONE CV would have to be created using the previous line ships as a basis and extrapolating. Other than the various unconfirmed designs out there. Which fits with things they've done to finish out branches in all their games, including this one with the German Tier X BB not actually being a designed ship, pretty sure France and UK have some ships that aren't exactly real in their lines, Then you have Russian ships, etc.

 

And you are completely false on having to make up fictional aircraft for carrier service. The German hierarchy was dead set on the fact that their carriers, for ease of production, should use currently existing aircraft modified for carrier operations, something the British and I think French did as well, and that the USN toyed with. On fighters, the Bf-109 variants easily cover tiers 5, 6, and 7, at tier 8 and 9, fighter variants of the Fw-190, with the tier 10 being either the Ta-152, or, giving Germany a jet aircraft/jet option that while faster, trades HP and DPS for that speed, albeit other fixes would be needed CV's have yet to get for that as well. On the Bomber front, honestly, the line shouldn't really have TB's to start with. That said, they have some options, between projects, the Ju-87, and the Fw-190. Germany should be more based around DB's, to which the Stuka easily gets you around tier 6-7 depending where you want to take it, albeit the version Wargaming currently uses on the GZ, the Ju-87c, should be a tier 6, not 7. Then, depending on where you cut off the Stuka, the ground attack variants of the Fw-190 take over, much as they did in history for the aging and ever more vulnerable Stuka. Which having fighter type aircraft with no tailgunner is nothing new in this game of attack planes, albeit they are usually a much higher tier. With tier 10 being a project that made it to beginnings of mock-up - the Ju-187 "Super Stuka" - An update of the earlier air frame with retractable gear and other aerodynamic improvement's, more powerful engine (same as the newer Fw-190's), improved armament both in offense and defense and a novel and interesting idea to have the tail rotate down out of the gunners firing line for better accuracy and less threat of damaging the aircraft yourself ala Indian Jones and the Last Crusade. But for various reasons, the project like many other German projects ended up cancelled. And even if that isn't "real" enough for some, there are still other options in single engine aircraft and given the German penchant late war of "Bigger is better" a tier X extrapolation could be the largest CV (barring the UK Ice carrier) in the game, and Germany had smaller Twin engine attack aircraft like the Ju-88 that could possibly have been converted for CV use much the same way the USN got B-25's off the deck of Hornet, and a few years later, launched and recovered a navalized B-25H from the deck of an Essex class carrier, funny enough, USS Shangri-la, so named because of the Doolittle raid and where FDR said the planes were launched from.

 

So - A German CV line makes far more practical sense than any Russian line seeing as at least half the ships physically existed to some degree of completion or conversion, and plenty of existing aircraft or aircraft projects to choose from With one, maybe two at most, truly "fake" ships needed to round it out, far from a first for Wargaming, let alone a Mongolian one.

 

As I see it a German carrier branch would look like this...

 

IV - "Small Aircraft Carrier for series construction" 15,000t - 15,000t displacement, 22 aircraft, 26kn top speed

 

 

V - Elbe - 23,500t displacement, 24 aircraft, 21kn top speed

 

 

VI - Project II (De Grasse Conversion) - 11,600t standard displacement, 23 aircraft, 32kn top speed

 

 

VII - Weser - 18,000t standard displacement, 20 aircraft, 32.5kn top speed

 

VIII - Graf Zeppelin sister

 

IX - Project I (Europa conversion) - 56,500t displacement, 80 aircraft (designed) 42 aircraft (planned), 28kn top speed

 

X - Fantasy ship

 

Please note that aircraft compliment shows what the Luftwaffe agreed to allocate to each project and not the actual maximum capacity of each carrier (save for Project I where the designed complimented is noted). WG, therefore, has some wiggle room in that area. Also, note that the above example of a carrier line is created using mostly converts as a convert line would be the least "paper", however, there are plenty of good paper designs as well such as the A-1 project, Project B, the 21,000t carrier project, and the 18,000t carrier project for commerce warfare.

 

 

[WanderingGhost]

1 hour ago, dseehafer said:

 

As I see it a German carrier branch would look like this...

 

IV - "Small Aircraft Carrier for series construction" 15,000t - 15,000t displacement, 22 aircraft, 26kn top speed

 

 

V - Elbe - 23,500t displacement, 24 aircraft, 21kn top speed

 

 

VI - Project II (De Grasse Conversion) - 11,600t standard displacement, 23 aircraft, 32kn top speed

 

 

VII - Weser - 18,000t standard displacement, 20 aircraft, 32.5kn top speed

 

VIII - Graf Zeppelin sister

 

IX - Project I (Europa conversion) - 56,500t displacement, 80 aircraft (designed) 42 aircraft (planned), 28kn top speed

 

X - Fantasy ship

 

Please note that aircraft compliment shows what the Luftwaffe agreed to allocate to each project and not the actual maximum capacity of each carrier (save for Project I where the designed complimented is noted). WG, therefore, has some wiggle room in that area. Also, note that the above example of a carrier line is created using mostly converts as a convert line would be the least "paper", however, there are plenty of good paper designs as well such as the A-1 project, Project B, the 21,000t carrier project, and the 18,000t carrier project for commerce warfare.

 

 

Never actually seen Europa designed that way, part of why I usually place it lower. And yeah, after getting schooled and having to go do math on GZ's hangar capacity, that Wargaming isn't making full use of still, even the "designed" numbers you have there can be low depending on storage, use of deck spots, etc. It's a line where the ships are there, and the aircraft exist, much as it may be a lower priority one of the one's Wargaming just has to knuckle down and do. Then again 2-3 years still no rework and can't even get a 3rd line of UK CV's, took Pigeon I believe fighting to get Enterprise in game (how this had to be a fight at all is beyond me), and what feels like almost a disdain on Wargaming's part for CV's at this point, one I'm almost afraid we'll never see. 

[BrentD15]

These threads are always a treat, seehafer.

[Phoenix_jz]

16 hours ago, dseehafer said:

 A Russian carrier is being added to the game for Pete's sake! 

 

O.O

WHAT!??!

When was this announced/leaked?

 

As I recall, the Devs stated on a Q&A that we wouldn't see a German or Russian carrier lines simply because it would require too much paper, over 50%, as long as you count incomplete as not being paper. Russia has nothing, plus no aircraft conversions (understandable for their circumstances).

Germany had only three projects that actually started, correct? Graf Zeppelin was almost complete (The sister not so much, but that doesn't matter for our purposes), Weser started as well, and Elbe as well, but Jade, Europa, and the De Grasse hull never started work iirc.

I kind of take it as a confirmation of a German CV line not happening (at least in current plans) with the fact Graf Zeppelin was chosen as a premium, the one carrier that was almost completed. Based on the fate of these lines I'm assuming Italy & France won't get CV lines either.

 

It's possible at some point in the future, if WG gets desperate enough for new lines, it might happen, and the KM CV's would probably be first in line simply because of the amount of projects started or almost started... but that would be a long way in the future. WoWs' dev's aren't the same team as WoWp or WoT, and there are a lot of other available lines. Assuming we get French BBs, the USN Cruiser split, British DDs (no word on these unlike the others, but they seem likely), and Italian CAs this year, there's still:

- French DDs

- Italian BBs

- Italian DDs

- British CVs

- British CAs

- Russian BBs (Behold, I am become laminated belts, a most terrible of ideas)

- Japanese CLs

- Germany BCs

- British BCs

- Moar American DDs

- Moar American BBs

- Moar American CVs

 

That's easily enough content (assuming 4 lines per year) to take us into 2022 until WG would start having to look for more paper heavy lines such as German CVs, Japans BCs, Italian CLs, possibly even American Bfs, French CVs, Italian CVs...

And that's only counting nations currently introduced. There's still a potential for a Pan-Latin American line, a Pan-European line (both should able to do DDs and Cruisers, BBs not so much), Spain could probably get a Cruiser and DD line out by themselves as well...

 

The Devs do go back on their decisions sometimes, so I'm not saying I think German CVs will never-ever-ever happen... but, if they do, I don't think it will be for a very long time.

 

Getting more on to the historical track: Out of curiosity, what's up with that massive mast on Weser? Is there any reason it looks so... odd? Awkward? I'm not sure what word to use XD

[dseehafer]

1 hour ago, Phoenix_jz said:

 

O.O

WHAT!??!

When was this announced/leaked?

 

As I recall, the Devs stated on a Q&A that we wouldn't see a German or Russian carrier lines simply because it would require too much paper, over 50%, as long as you count incomplete as not being paper. Russia has nothing, plus no aircraft conversions (understandable for their circumstances).

Germany had only three projects that actually started, correct? Graf Zeppelin was almost complete (The sister not so much, but that doesn't matter for our purposes), Weser started as well, and Elbe as well, but Jade, Europa, and the De Grasse hull never started work iirc.

I kind of take it as a confirmation of a German CV line not happening (at least in current plans) with the fact Graf Zeppelin was chosen as a premium, the one carrier that was almost completed. Based on the fate of these lines I'm assuming Italy & France won't get CV lines either.

 

It's possible at some point in the future, if WG gets desperate enough for new lines, it might happen, and the KM CV's would probably be first in line simply because of the amount of projects started or almost started... but that would be a long way in the future. WoWs' dev's aren't the same team as WoWp or WoT, and there are a lot of other available lines. Assuming we get French BBs, the USN Cruiser split, British DDs (no word on these unlike the others, but they seem likely), and Italian CAs this year, there's still:

- French DDs

- Italian BBs

- Italian DDs

- British CVs

- British CAs

- Russian BBs (Behold, I am become laminated belts, a most terrible of ideas)

- Japanese CLs

- Germany BCs

- British BCs

- Moar American DDs

- Moar American BBs

- Moar American CVs

 

That's easily enough content (assuming 4 lines per year) to take us into 2022 until WG would start having to look for more paper heavy lines such as German CVs, Japans BCs, Italian CLs, possibly even American Bfs, French CVs, Italian CVs...

And that's only counting nations currently introduced. There's still a potential for a Pan-Latin American line, a Pan-European line (both should able to do DDs and Cruisers, BBs not so much), Spain could probably get a Cruiser and DD line out by themselves as well...

 

The Devs do go back on their decisions sometimes, so I'm not saying I think German CVs will never-ever-ever happen... but, if they do, I don't think it will be for a very long time.

 

Getting more on to the historical track: Out of curiosity, what's up with that massive mast on Weser? Is there any reason it looks so... odd? Awkward? I'm not sure what word to use XD

 

A carrier emblem on a Russian flag just recently appeared in the files, a British one as well for that matter. So its extremely probable that a Russian and British premium carrier is on the horizon.

 

Work on De Grasse started in August 1942 but progressed slowly and was eventually canceled in February 1943 due primarily to lack of materials and workers. GZ's sister was also broken up on the slipways. So realistically 5 carriers that work was started on.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not saying that a German CV line is a priority, or that it will be appearing any time soon, I'm just saying that when WG does eventually run out of primary content they'd be fools not to make a German CV line. Every new line in-game brings in more money because people spend money to convert xp to progress up the line and there are usually more people playing in general when a new line is released. A German CV line is certainly doable, as I said twice over even, there is plenty of content available to work with. We'd be foolish to assume that, when the time comes, WG will pass up the opportunity to make money on a new line because they've all of a sudden developed a sense of morals and don't want a line of mostly paper. Look at WOT and WOWP, WG obviously has no problem with introducing lines of mostly paper. Simply put, WG is a business, a business has to make money, a German cv line presents the opportunity to squeeze just a little more money out of their product before they run out of major content, as a business it would be unwise not for them to jump at such an opportunity.

 

GZ is an obvious premium CV, line or not, simply because she is recognizable and fame sells. They could have given us  Peter Strasser instead of GZ and they would have been statistically the same but there's no way Peter Strasser would sell better than GZ just because of her name. Making GZ a premium was a smart business decision. One needs only to look at the fact that people actually bought the GZ despite very enthusiastic warnings from highly respected community member not to buy the ship because of how unbalanced and terrible it is. Why would anyone buy GZ despite these warnings?? Simple, GZ is famous/recognizable, that alone ensured that some people would buy her no matter what. Hood was not a great ship when she was released and many community members even suggested saving your money and not buying Hood, but I bought Hood anyways. Why?? Because she's the MFing Hood for Pete's sake! Again, fame sells.

 

I'm also betting on a French CV line as well, btw.

 

The Germans had an obsession with tube masts, every one of their light cruisers had 'em, two of their heavy cruisers had em (with a third under construction), both of their pre-dreds had 'em, and every one of their carrier designs had 'em. It was just an extremely popular German naval design practice for the time. The tube mast presented a way to build a tall, lightweight but strong structure that you could add platforms to as needed. With so many German projects focussed on saving weight, the tube mast was an obvious choice.

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

On 10/01/2018 at 12:37 AM, dseehafer said:

A German carrier line is an inevatability once WG begins to run out of content. Hell, WOT is getting a Polish tech tree. Look at all the lines in wowp which are chalked full of paper planes and prototypes. Germany has enough carrier designs for two lines, a convert line and a purpose-built line. That's not to say that we'll get two lines, but that WG would be foolish not to take advantage of such a content rich field. A Russian carrier is being added to the game for Pete's sake! Any German convert carrier is more real than any Russian paper carrier!

I had an exchange with POW recently, he poured cold water on our hopes of new cv tech trees in the forseeable future. (Quite depressing).

The easiest cv tech trees to implement  (readily available and credible source material,) would of course be British and German, French and Italian premiums are obvious candidates. And be careful what we wish for, none of the cv premiums introduced so far have have a positive impact on cv gameplay -they have either been OP/broken/borked/toxic/dominant to the point of making existing tech trees irrelevant at key player progression choke points (7/8).

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

On 10/01/2018 at 6:12 PM, Phoenix_jz said:

As I recall, the Devs stated on a Q&A that we wouldn't see a German or Russian carrier lines simply because it would require too much paper, over 50%, as long as you count incomplete as not being paper. Russia has nothing, plus no aircraft conversions (understandable for their circumstances).

this isn't the reason for their opposition, the Germans had more than enough, detailed design studies, based upon existing ships (to be converted) or fresh builds to provide a full and complete tech tree, with plenty of original quirks that would guarantee player interest. Whatever WG's reasoning, opposition to paper designs is not a sincere one.

[dseehafer]

40 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

I had an exchange with POW recently, he poured cold water on our hopes of new cv tech trees in the forseeable future. (Quite depressing).

The easiest cv tech trees to implement  (readily available and credible source material,) would of course be British and German, French and Italian premiums are obvious candidates. And be careful what we wish for, none of the cv premiums introduced so far have have a positive impact on cv gameplay -they have either been OP/broken/borked/toxic/dominant to the point of making existing tech trees irrelevant at key player progression choke points (7/8).

 

France has enough for a tech tree as well.

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

Just now, dseehafer said:

 

France has enough for a tech tree as well.

I have looked around, but haven't seen much material for a full tech tree, can you point me in the right direction. (I'd love to see Foudre, the 1st (?) purpose built seaplane tender, in game, tier 2/3, but that will never happen sadly)

[dseehafer]

35 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

I have looked around, but haven't seen much material for a full tech tree, can you point me in the right direction. (I'd love to see Foudre, the 1st (?) purpose built seaplane tender, in game, tier 2/3, but that will never happen sadly)

 

well sure, in no specific order....

 

There is the Commandant Teste Conversion...

 

 

The Duquesne conversion....

 

there is the PA4 project...

 

 

 

The Joffre project...

 

 

Jean Bart was at one time considered for conversion...

 

 

 

There is the Arromanches (ex-HMS Colossus) 

 

 

The Lafayette (ex-USS Langley) 

 

 

and of course, the Bearn 

[mr3awsome]

1 hour ago, nuttybiscuit said:

this isn't the reason for their opposition, the Germans had more than enough, detailed design studies, based upon existing ships (to be converted) or fresh builds to provide a full and complete tech tree, with plenty of original quirks that would guarantee player interest. Whatever WG's reasoning, opposition to paper designs is not a sincere one.

The problem with German (and ultimately Russian) CV lines is a lack of planes for them, rather than a lack of designs. 

Conversely France has enough of both. 

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

1 minute ago, mr3awsome said:

Conversely France has enough of both. 

well let them roll! If there are sufficient credible designs to make a full tech tree, that would be fantastic, but I still doubt that WG has any serious intention of implementing new cv tech trees in the foreseeable future. The lame excuse of eternal cv rework and endless sterile ping pong balancing arguments seem destined to abort development. (We will probably see more premiums, which may delight as models, but which will do nought good for the game.)

[mofton]

6 hours ago, mr3awsome said:

The problem with German (and ultimately Russian) CV lines is a lack of planes for them, rather than a lack of designs. 

Conversely France has enough of both. 

I don't understand why in a game with Roon, Hindenburg, Henri IV  and Conqueror, planes are held to seemingly a far higher standard.

If you can have a Roon in game, you can say 'this is a navalized Fw-190, or navalized Me262' or whatever.

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

15 hours ago, mofton said:

I don't understand why in a game with Roon, Hindenburg, Henri IV  and Conqueror, planes are held to seemingly a far higher standard.

If you can have a Roon in game, you can say 'this is a navalized Fw-190, or navalized Me262' or whatever.

Well this is what will happen. The British were especially proficient at "navalizing" aircraft initially designed to operate from land, some more successfully than others, some simply with a new paint job  there is no compelling reason a hypothetical whatif approach cannot be taken with French and German lines.

[Jazzyblaster]

Just catching up on this, after finishing part 2.  Awesome work! Looking forward to part 4.

[mr3awsome]

On 1/21/2018 at 4:20 AM, mofton said:

I don't understand why in a game with Roon, Hindenburg, Henri IV  and Conqueror, planes are held to seemingly a far higher standard.

If you can have a Roon in game, you can say 'this is a navalized Fw-190, or navalized Me262' or whatever.

Admittedly, this was communicated some time ago, but its all we have to go on