Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
Avrien

Inertia fuse and american BB's... and armor pen question

13 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Members
90 posts
1,491 battles

I've always had an odd thing for using inertia fuse and american bb's. Everyone tells me it's bad... They say look at the armor. I dno't know if the armor has been changed but I see lots of places it's useful. Especially tier against cruisers.

 

My one question is in the case I saw on the british conquerer. It has some nice inner citadel armor in the front and rear. The lower is 76mm citadel athwartship and uper is 28mm athwartship. Thes have a 32mm front protection. If I fired my 406mm guns into it's front does it go through the 76mm. AKA does the first armor reduce the affective pen for the second plate. This is because inertia fuse would make a 67mm pen into an 87mm pen. Meaning I could crit this ship from the front and back with citadel hits with my HE all day long. And from a technical standpoint if the 127mm guns have Inertia fuse they go from 21mm pen to 27.5166mm pen. It can't get through the 32mm but if it could would it pen the 28mm from rounding? or would it never pen that thing strip?

My second note is the fact that inertia opens a huge array of ships up to my 127mm and 406mm guns and adds either a good surface area to hit or very good vital spots like citadels that he couldn't pen otherwise. Most of these you need to be aware of to help but it opens up alot of shots on alot of ships to help take them down a lot faster and opens up some pretty nasty weak spots.

Normal pen: 127=21.166..; 76.5=12.75; 406=67.66..; 356=59.33..; 305=50.833..; 152=25.33..;

Inertia pen: 127=27.5166..; 76.5=16.575; 406=87.966..;356=77.133..; 305=66.0833..; 152=32.93..3;

American BBs have 127mm secondaries from tier 4 onward and get even more advantage to 76.2mm he secondaries as it lets them hit 16mm armor; and 406mm main guns from tier 7 and up and have similar pens for the 356mms at tier 5/6.

Examples:(406mm and 127mm)

British:

Battlships:

1. Conquerer: Citadel anthwartship: 76mm; Antwhwartship: 28mm(**not accesible)

2. Lion: Conning Tower: 76mm

3. Monarch: Conning Tower: 76mm; Antwhwartship: 25mm(**not accesible);; Main Battery Barbette Armor: 76mm; Main battery Mount armor 76mm(top facing surface hit front of guns aiming at you.)

4. King George V:  Anthwartship: 25mm; Armor Belt: 25mm; Belt: 25mm; Fore End Plating: 25mm; Aft End Plating: 25mm

5. Queen Elizabeth: Conning Tower: 76mm; Citadel Deck: 25mm; Deck: 25mm; Aft End Deck: 25mm; Aft End Plating: 25mm; Fore End Deck: 25mm; Fore End Plating: 25mm; Plating: 25mm; Citadel Deck: 89mm?

6. Iron Duke: Conning Tower: 76mm; Antwhwartship: 25mm(**not accesible); Main Battery Mount armor 76mm; Main Battery Barbette armor 76mm; Torpedo Bulges: 25mm; Citadel Athwartship 25mm: Citadel Torpedo Bulkhead: 25mm; Citadel Deck: 25mm

7. Warspite: Conning Tower: 76mm; Aft End Deck: 25mm; Aft End Plating: 25mm; Torpedo Bulges: 25mm; Deck: 25mm; Plating: 25mm; Fore End Deck: 25mm; Fore End Plating: 25mm; Citadel Deck: 25mm; Citadel Deck: 89mm?

8. Nelson: Fore End Deck: 25mm; Fore End Plating: 25mm; Aft End Deck: 25mm; Aft End Plating: 25mm; Main battery Mount armor 76mm(top facing surface hit front of guns aiming at you.)

9. Hood: Fore End Deck: 25mm; Fore End Plating: 25mm; Aft End Deck: 25mm; Aft End Plating: 25mm; Torpedo Bulges: 25mm; Superstructure: 76mm; Citadel Armor Belt: 75mm; Citadel Deck: 76mm; Main battery Mount armor 76mm(top facing surface hit front of guns aiming at you.)

Cruisers:

1. Minotaur: Citadel Bottom: 25mm; Bottom: 25mm; Conning Tower: 25mm

2: Neptune: Citadel Bottom: 25mm; Bottom: 25mm; Conning Tower: 25mm; Citadel Athwartship: 76mm

3. Edinburgh: Citadel Bottom: 25mm; Bottom: 25mm; Main Battery Mount Barbette Armor: 76mm; Citadel Deck: 76mm

4. Fiji: Main Battery Mount Barbette Armor: 25mm;

5. Leander: Main Battery Mount Barbette Armor: 25mm; Main Battery Mount Armor: 25mm; Citadel Athwartship: 76mm; Citadel Deck: 25mm

6. Emerald: Fore End Armor Belt: 76mm; Citadel Armor Belt: 76mm; Main Battery Mount Armor: 76mm; Citadel Deck: 25mm; Citadel Athwartship: 25mm

American:

Carriers:

1. Midway: Citadel Torpedo Bulkhead: 74mm; Hanger Plating: 25mm: Deck: 87mm; Conning Tower 87mm;

2. Essex: Conning Tower: 25/75mm; Torpedo Bulges: 25mm; Citadel Torpedo bulkhead: 89mm?

3. Lexington: Armor Belt: 25mm

4. Ranger: Deck: 25mm

5. Independence: Conning Tower: 25mm

6. Bogue: Nothing

7. Enterprise: Deck: 25mm/28mm?; Athwartship: 25mm; Citadel Torpedo Bulkhead: 25mm

8. Saipan: Citadel Plating: 76mm; Armor Belt: 25mm

Battleships:

1. Montana: Torpedo Bulges: 25mm; Athwartship: 25mm

2. Iowa: Citadel Deck: 25mm; Main Battery Mount Barbette Armor: 76mm; Torpedo Bulges: 25mm

3. North Carolina: Athwartship: 25mm

4. Colorado: Citadel Torpedo Bulkhead: 85mm; Deck: 25mm/89mm?; Plating: 25mm; Aft End Plating: 25mm; Aft End Deck: 25mm; Fore End Plating: 25mm; Fore End Deck: 25mm; Torpedo Bulges: 25mm

5. New Mexico: Citadel Deck: 70mm; Deck: 25mm; Plating: 25mm; Aft End Plating: 25mm; Aft End Deck: 25mm; Fore End Plating: 25mm; Fore End Deck: 25mm; Torpedo Bulges: 25mm

6. New York: Citadel Torpedo Bulkhead: 76mm; Citadel Deck: 25mm; Deck: 25mm/89mm?; Torpedo Bulges: 25mm

7. Missouri: Citadel Deck: 25mm; Main Battery Mount Barbette Armor: 76mm

8. Alabama: Main Battery Mount Barbette Armor: 76mm;

9. Arizona: Deck: 25mm; Plating: 25mm; Aft End Plating: 25mm; Aft End Deck: 25mm; Fore End Plating: 25mm; Fore End Deck: 25mm; Torpedo Bulges: 25mm

10. Texas: Citadel Torpedo Bulkhead: 76mm; Citadel Deck: 25mm; Deck: 25mm/89mm?; Torpedo Bulges: 25mm

Cruisers:

1. Des Moines: Citadel Plating: 27mm; Armor Belt 27mm; Aft End Plating: 27mm; Aft End Deck: 27mm; Fore End Plating: 27mm; Fore End Deck: 27mm

2. Baltimore: Citadel Plating: 27mm; Citadel Deck: 76mm: Main Battery Mount Armor: 76mm; Deck: 27mm; Plating: 27mm; Aft End Plating: 27mm; Aft End Deck: 27mm; Fore End Plating: 27mm; Fore End Deck: 27mm

3.

 

 

You get the idea. Lots of openings.... I'll put in more later.

 

Edited by Avrien

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,641 posts
7,482 battles

Don't fire HE in US battleships, it will only damage based on the first surface it makes contact with, AKA the bow/stern and will NOT pass through it. leaving you with poor damage rolls (due to low HE damage) and saturation of the section. HE will never touch a citadel that isn't exposed outright on the surface of a ship. IFHE is thus not worth taking on even british battleships ( unless you want to lolcit a small amount of cruisers ), AP will do the job far better in all circumstances outside of T8+ battleships bow tanking, in which case its best to find another target and shoot at that or then load HE for the bow-on target.

IFHE is however worthwhile taking on 152mm and 127mm guns, this will allow your destroyer and cruiser HE to penetrate armor that it normally wouldn't and gain more damage from increased pens. 76mm secondaries are so small and few, that they are negligible in almost all situations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
90 posts
1,491 battles

Maybe they should make some AP/He rounds that do both. Did those exist at the time?

 

Wouldn't it help with secondary damage?

Either way I can throw it on my Des moine when I get one or whatever cruiser I"m on I guess.

I've actually found it's useful to fire HE at 15-2X meters. It helps burn them down and I don't have to worry about accuracy to light them on fire.

Edited by Avrien

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,422
[PVE]
[PVE]
Members
5,966 posts
10,751 battles

Please don't be one of those guys running a USN BB who shoots HE all the time. USN BB's are not Brit BB's. Your best weapon is your AP (probably best BB AP in game for a line). HE in very few select scenarios.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
90 posts
1,491 battles

Damnedest thing just happened. I played  around where I'm pretty sure I used all AP... I had one fire started. I also had 4 of citadels and I think one incapacitation. It is possible that the skill to increase fires by 2% allows citadels or other special shots to start fires. I would assume it might have a different fire starting % because they are special shots. Or do certain AP shots always have a chance to start fires like citadels?!

And I switch between shots. I do HE at 20km and switch to HE when It gets closer to 15km or less. but I do play some games with all HE. I also do the same with AP. I've found my damage comes out the same regardless. US BB's are pretty neutral in effectiveness..

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/0010000000100010000010100010100019

The only skills I don't have are basic and advanced fire training.

NVM, I was close quarters and hit stuff with secondaries...

BTW, one, likely underused use of HE, is for killing enemy AA guns. You can knock them out endlessly to help get your aircraft onto a target more safely. But I'm guessing that level of coordination is rare. It should be used heavily though. How useful is Inertia fuse for killing AA mounts? Or does it not have an effect? does it help how many are hit or knocked out?

This is what I would use otherwise: http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/0100000011000000100001000100000119

Edited by Avrien

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,422
[PVE]
[PVE]
Members
5,966 posts
10,751 battles
11 hours ago, Avrien said:

Damnedest thing just happened. I played  around where I'm pretty sure I used all AP... I had one fire started. I also had 4 of citadels and I think one incapacitation. It is possible that the skill to increase fires by 2% allows citadels or other special shots to start fires. I would assume it might have a different fire starting % because they are special shots. Or do certain AP shots always have a chance to start fires like citadels?!

And I switch between shots. I do HE at 20km and switch to HE when It gets closer to 15km or less. but I do play some games with all HE. I also do the same with AP. I've found my damage comes out the same regardless. US BB's are pretty neutral in effectiveness..

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/0010000000100010000010100010100019

The only skills I don't have are basic and advanced fire training.

NVM, I was close quarters and hit stuff with secondaries...

BTW, one, likely underused use of HE, is for killing enemy AA guns. You can knock them out endlessly to help get your aircraft onto a target more safely. But I'm guessing that level of coordination is rare. It should be used heavily though. How useful is Inertia fuse for killing AA mounts? Or does it not have an effect? does it help how many are hit or knocked out?

This is what I would use otherwise: http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/0100000011000000100001000100000119

You either were shooting HE and didn't know it or you were close enough for your secondary guns to set the fire. AP does not set fires. No IFHE had nothing to do with citadels or incapacitations from your AP.  IFHE affects HE shells only. Citadels don't set fires. Citadels are where you penetrate the armor into vital areas inside the ship where the shell explodes doing the max damage possible. You set fires on the outside of the ship; on the deck and in super structure. Also, IFHE reduces your fire chance. It does not increase it. You trade off some fire chance for better penetration with your HE.

I am not being a jerk here but you really are not helping yourself or the team using HE out of a US BB (very rare times it is a good call like when running from another BB that is bow on and with the armor to bounce your AP - HE to get it burning would be ok). The British BB's and a few rare exceptions  like the IJN T4 Premium BB are good candidates for mainly HE use but NOT US BB's.

Your damage caused is deceiving? Is that damage you caused fire damage that is mostly repairable or is it massive citadel damage that mainly is not? If you really want to help your CV out keep that AP loaded and instadelete Cruisers and do massive damage to BB's they can't heal back. You aren't BBQ'ing a chicken at the sunday family gathering you are trying to take out enemy ships asap. With US BB that = AP my man. 

Don't think your AP is no good at range either. At 15-20km where you are using that HE you are missing your best opportunity to get a citadel hit on a German BB. They are not vulnerable to citadels in close but are vulnerable to them at long range where the shells plunge through the deck armor. Other nation's BB's are as well for the most part.

Again, not being a jerk here but you are seriously handicapping yourself, and thus hurting not helping your team, when you shoot HE out of a US BB other than in very few instances (and even in those AP can still do big damage with a good hit). IFHE is a complete waste on a BB. It was designed to help ships with smaller caliber guns do more pen damage with their HE. With how the game works basing pen values off gun size vs armor you gain nothing with IFHE. You won't be able to pen anything you couldn't previously AND you actually reduce your fire starting chance by 3% in a BB which you seem to like.  

Good luck with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
90 posts
1,491 battles

I'm actually pretty sure HE has a very good use in american BB's or bb's in general, but nobody uses the level of teamwork to use it well. Basically BB's have the one advantage to be good carrier escorts. The potential ability to engage at any range. And with carrier escorts HE is good at potentially removing enemy ship AA from range. And if you do sniping setsup and protect teh carrier you have the advantage of acting as an arm for you carriers. And Inertia fuses one use is getting damage with your fires on things like the midway and other carrier decks. From my experience messing with HE on my North Carolina and Colorado is it pretty much has even damage no matter whether you do HE or AP. It's a matter of choice and circumstances. If you can't get sniper like accuraccy and you know you can hit citadels you can easily strafe the surface of shops, especially bb's and carriers at long range and light them up over and over while removing their torps guns and AA. It's more deadly than people give credit. And like in WOT it's better for low health targets as you are more likely to get higher individual damage streaks. So it's better potentially for finishing off enemies in several circumstances. So, if you want to get with some guys to do dedicated carrier escort it's not bad. But you probably need a few guys and be good at burning your foes down at range. Either way if you are playing with smart people and not rushing ahead and using scouting before gonig somewhere or using numbers correctly it should be useful in dedicated teams. It's basically carrier support. It should not be suppressed with the service cost thing. It just needs to be used correctly as an AA sheild and to help torp planes get in and out with minimal damage. Plus carriers get alot more aggressive and help more when they know you are escorting them. They will stick with the group more. it's just hard in random so far because everyone goes off in different directions instead of using numbers and finding the enemy to do more caclulated attacks.

You could do this for support and let yourself be seen to draw in the enemy to get him to chase you and kill himself:

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/0010000000100010000010100010100019

Or this and use double stealth:

http://shipcomrade.com/captcalc/0010000000100010000010100000100119

Use these with a combo of the early detection equipment or the extra detection for stealth sniper or to help the carriers detect as a group. Or combine them for inertia fuse and lesser stealth or whatever combo.

The usefulness of snipers with carrier escort is that you then have the ability to be close and still reach out to hit any enemy your team can find. You just need too aim. And HE at long range is much better than AP from my experience. Way more potential to hurt the enemy.

If people were smarter they would focus on getting the enemy planes first to shred themselves and then get the enemy ships. But we don't get that kind of play in random. And the enemy seeing a massive NC in front of the carrier makes them a lot more afraid to attack and helps the carrier survive massively. And any He you can get on the enemy the carrier is targeting can massivly reduce his AA with a few boats firing together to get his planes in and out with less damage and magnify your teams offensive abilities with little work.

Basically it would be for carrier oriented play. Appropriate for american bb's potentially. Firing at 27km and higher at your enemy and defending the carrier is actually fun if the team is not overly aggressive and kills themself stupidly. You can do a lot to weaken the enemy and help him kill himself before getting more aggressive later in game. It's much nicer to weaken your enemy before heavily engaging him.

Imagine your CC and DD's not rushing in but intelligently mass spaming the area with torps at once then moving in within shorter distance of you to the first cap and scouting to find loose clusters of enemies and using coordinated fire attack with ranged artillery to help get air support and sweep across the map. If this is done intelligently this can be devistating. If you do this correctly they can start out with two or more caps. Because it won't matter if you are killing them slowly as a mass group and not loosing ships. By mid to end game you can havea mostly full team and take back teh caps easily. I see this is random matches. It would be much easier if people played in a more group fashion. This all combined with coordinated long range HE on specific targets to remove AA while your carriers kill of ships one by one to reduce losses. Won't need AP unless they get really close.

One cool trick with BB HE is that the 30 seconds it takes to fire means the emergency repair party timer is always up and you can relight on the next round. If they always have to hit it or die you can always relight them on the next timer if needed. I've found that fun in actual circumstances. So, a few BB's firing HE together can make sure an enemy stays light with some pretty nasty damage. And it has better HE DPB because of the greater likelyhood to hit a soft spot. AP is much better when you know you can get large pinpoint hits. A good trick is to not fire all at once with HE. Find the range you think the enemy will be moving and strafe your shots as while holding down the button. I fire alot from 12-10 or 12-8 or 10-8 If I expect slowdowns. If not it can help cluster or sometimes spread out along sections to get more potential fires. It depends which way you move the mouse. 12-10 or 10-12, etc.

 

Better yet the BB's do long range bombardment while the CC/DD strikeforce get into position and the the torpedo bombs are dropping with no AA to hit back at the same time... You could mess up the enemy pretty fast. If not split up and hit seperate targets as I was alluding to before. Either way nasty combo.

Edited by Avrien

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
351
[ZIPPO]
Members
1,564 posts
3,539 battles

In theory your not wrong but while your firing HE to damage my AA I'm going to sink you with my AP. Add to the fact you will never see that level of team work out side of clan wars because players on random are so brain dead I'm surprised they don't drown while drinking a glass of water.

 

Fact is fact if your firing mostly HE your going to lose because your doing nothing to help the team win

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
90 posts
1,491 battles

If you are shooting at 27 meters you have a better chance to do damage and if anything use their heals early. I don't see the point in useing AP before they get to about 15km. And their is never and end of targets at 20km+ no matter what in random. I still find it useful. And if you can get allies to help shoot the enemy aa for the carrier why not. it has it's uses. The torp getting his torps knocked out helps your cc and dd alot more than the ap potentially. AP damages HE cripples. At least from my experience. And BB HE does a lot of crippling and good damage(higher and easier raw DPS/DPV than AP except when certain of citadels.). The fire is just to make up for the lower round potential. The only time AP is imperative might be at close range where you need instant damage. And it's a gamble to get a quicker kill. He on american bb's atleast seem to have even damage potential up to the point you are at fairly close range. And it's still a matter of utility. it's still sometimes good to cripple the ship depending on circumstances to negate return fire or defense especially with others around.

I like HE in general. I don't see the reason people are so against it. It has so much potential.

Edited by Avrien

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
351
[ZIPPO]
Members
1,564 posts
3,539 battles

I have landed more citadels than I can possibly count at max range, that is damage that CANNOT be repaired. Penatration damage can only be repaired so much. HE damage and fire damage can be mostly repaired. Your talk about crippling damage, well good job you cause maybe 4k damage max (that can be repaired) and took out a couple mounts. In return I can cause 4k easy and up to 20k damage that can not be fully repaired. That seems a heck of allot more important than a small amount of repairable damage

 

I'll further make my point, I have NEVER lost a 1v1 fight in and of my BBs and cruisers when I used AP and they used HE in their BBs and cruisers. Heck the advent of RN BBs with their HE meta I've actually won 2v1 fights against them because AP damage is much more devastating than their 3 or fires they cause

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,422
[PVE]
[PVE]
Members
5,966 posts
10,751 battles
2 hours ago, Avrien said:

I like HE in general. I don't see the reason people are so against it. It has so much potential.

We have told you why but you don't want to listen. :Smile_facepalm:

Fire damage can almost all be healed back. Only 33% (believe that is the number) of regular AP damage can be healed and only like 10% of citadel damage can be healed. So you do the math. One AP salvo can do more non repairable damage than multiple HE salvos and fires. And while you are trying to BBQ that enemy BB like a chicken if he is smart he is chunking you back with his AP and winning the fight with EASE.

As the other poster said, and I did earlier as well, you can get a lot of plunging citadel hits on BB's, including the German ones which is only way you usually can really, at those long ranges where you think HE is so great. So that argument is not really a winnable one for you either. No offense but it is just wrong. These aren't small caliber Cruiser or DD gun AP rounds we are talking about that lose their punch at range so swapping to HE is a better choice. These are US BB AP rounds that come down like the Hammer of God at range.

US BB's are not BRN BB's that are built in game for HE use. Stop trying to over think it and rationalize a poor choice with your potential theories. Use your AP as the ships are designed for and wreck stuff. End of story. My last word on it as I see no point in continuing.

Good luck with it and may I never have you in a US BB on my team. If I do I will bring the marshmallows as they will be more useful in the game LOL. (sorry that was rude but had to :Smile_glasses: )

Edited by AdmiralThunder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34
[280ZX]
Members
721 posts
10,578 battles

Load the latest Public Test version and go into the training room and try HE and AP from your current ship on various selected tier/type targets (they will be static, only you won't).

Hit from head on and 1/4, broad side, 3/4, and stern at various ranges. Make sure the training room tier levels are what  you want as well as ship types, and the training exercise duration (go for 10 minutes, the max).

Being static, you have to sail down to them and then try various techniques. This will back up and confirm what you are thinking about short, medium, and long range use of HE and AP.

Try into hull and topsides.

Take a 15 pt german captain with BFT and AFT on the Bismark and watch what happens with  maxed out secondaries starting at about 12 km from the target. Fun to watch. Batteries are included....just pull up and watch them sink.

Edited by Ericson38

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
328 posts
10,311 battles
On 12/28/2017 at 6:18 PM, Avrien said:

Maybe they should make some AP/He rounds that do both. Did those exist at the time?

 

Wouldn't it help with secondary damage?

Either way I can throw it on my Des moine when I get one or whatever cruiser I"m on I guess.

I've actually found it's useful to fire HE at 15-2X meters. It helps burn them down and I don't have to worry about accuracy to light them on fire.

AP is AP/HE really, there is a bursting charge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×