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IronMike11B4O

My proposed UK CL changes

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In my Opinion now a year after the UK CL intro there are some serious changes that need to be made to the lower tier UK CL's. It doesn't take a genius to see the lower tier CL's are by far the lowest performers in there respective classes. So after doing some research here would be my prospective changes.

Tier II Weymouth no change 

Tier III Caledon No change

Tier IV Danae is given smoke and the HMS Delhi upgrade. It received after refit in the US 5 5/38's this could be a B or C hull upgrade. It could be a companion to the Yubari as the strongest AA cruiser at tier 4. 

Tier 5 Emerald is removed from the Tech tree altogether. It should be changed to a premium and be renamed ORP Conrad of the Polish Navy as it was IRL. Lets face it the Dev work is already done here and WGing's penchant for reskinning and selling as a premium a ship already modeled or in the game is nothin new.

Tier V HMS Arethusa or basically where the Huang Meh should have been all along.

These in my opinion should be the basic hull forms of the lower tier RN CL's. The debate as to what consumables to be carried is none of my concern at this time.

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The Emerald is fun for T5, it teaches you how to position and smoke. British CLs are more skill heavy than other nations, more so at low tiers.

The Danae more so, and they need so little XP to actually advance. Perhaps smoke for the T4, but in the right hands that makes it a very powerful ship with that heal.

 

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2 minutes ago, _greifer said:

The Emerald is fun for T5, it teaches you how to position and smoke. British CLs are more skill heavy than other nations, more so at low tiers.

The Danae more so, and they need so little XP to actually advance. Perhaps smoke for the T4, but in the right hands that makes it a very powerful ship with that heal.

 

The Emerald is garbage as proven by its server average.

 

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If the objective is to replace a chronically underperforming ship with a better one, I don't really see how the Arethusa would be an upgrade over the Emerald.  Both ships have the same broadside firepower but Emerald is slightly faster, has more torpedo tubes and is significantly heavier (ie: more hitpoints.)  Arethusa is in the game in the form of Huang He and has 3000 less hitpoints than Emerald.  Both ships are minimally armored so there's no advantage there either way. 

 

Arethusa/Huang He's only advantage is having the main battery in superfiring turrets, which gives better forward angles, but I don't think that's really worth the tradeoff.  It certainly wouldn't be a big upgrade.

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1 minute ago, IronMike11B4O said:

The Emerald is garbage as proven by its server average.

 

Most T5s wont be easy due to the MM and people advancing. More so if they are new to British CLs and cannot smoke effectively. The new smoke changes benefit the British CLs, remember until recently that you had to be half speed to deploy smoke or your two puffs (one puff if it was bugged) would leave you buggered.

I still see British CLs even at T8/9 dropping smoke and then slowing down, giving me easy citadels or a dev strike on them. 

Concealment and position are your best friends, learn this at the lower tiers and your advance up the British line will be a cup of tea!

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low tier RNCLs are the hazing period you go through before getting the OPness of the line from Leander and on

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16 minutes ago, IronMike11B4O said:

How so? Please elaborate?

It has considerably less firepower than the Marblehead and its ilk do, not to mention things like Konigsberg and Kirov.  Without smoke, Arethusa is too weak for T5, and smoke on cruisers was a mistake.

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4 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

Arethusa is not t5 material.

She's more so than Emerald at least.

Smoke on RNCL is probably here to stay, too many of the other ships would need a huge re-work without it because most of the line is overtiered. I can't see WG spending the energy for years (look how long USN cruiser split has taken, or how long it took them to give NOLA stupid-good concealment in desperation).

40 minutes ago, IronMike11B4O said:

Tier IV Danae is given smoke and the HMS Delhi upgrade. It received after refit in the US 5 5/38's this could be a B or C hull upgrade. It could be a companion to the Yubari as the strongest AA cruiser at tier 4. 

Tier 5 Emerald is removed from the Tech tree altogether. It should be changed to a premium and be renamed ORP Conrad of the Polish Navy as it was IRL. Lets face it the Dev work is already done here and WGing's penchant for reskinning and selling as a premium a ship already modeled or in the game is nothin new.

Tier V HMS Arethusa or basically where the Huang Meh should have been all along.

I generally like it, though note that ORP Konrad is in fact Danae and not an Emerald.

If you wanted an Emerald prem I'd keep it at T5, give it HE, no repair, up the torpedoes to 10km range so it's actually a torpedo threat rather than just slightly better Konigsberg, then expect to sell five or maybe even six of them.

10 minutes ago, Vaidency said:

If the objective is to replace a chronically underperforming ship with a better one, I don't really see how the Arethusa would be an upgrade over the Emerald.  Both ships have the same broadside firepower but Emerald is slightly faster, has more torpedo tubes and is significantly heavier (ie: more hitpoints.)  Arethusa is in the game in the form of Huang He and has 3000 less hitpoints than Emerald.  Both ships are minimally armored so there's no advantage there either way. 

Arethusa/Huang He's only advantage is having the main battery in superfiring turrets, which gives better forward angles, but I don't think that's really worth the tradeoff.  It certainly wouldn't be a big upgrade.

Arethusa's guns would be Leanders which not only means more forward firepower, but also means far better shells, arcs, penetration. Emerald has high MV, but shells designed by some 1890's moron and they have all the ballistic properties of a bowler hat.

Arethusa going on Huang He would also lack the ridiculously borked armor, even if it's light. I've not seen Huang He get citadelled by 4in HE shells yet...

Arethusa/Huang He would also get 9.5 instead of 11.5km concealment stock, which is a huge 2km advantage.

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8 minutes ago, mofton said:

She's more so than Emerald at least.

 

I don't disagree with this.  WG should have gotten it right the first time, but they were bound and determined to overtier them and compensate with gimmicks.

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Just now, crzyhawk said:

I don't disagree with this.  WG should have gotten it right the first time, but they were bound and determined to overtier them and compensate with gimmicks.

The moment I saw the line reveal my heart sank, Emerald at 5? An 8-gun CL at a tier with Cleveland? A light/economy British Cleveland at T7 and Edinburgh trying to play with the 1950's Chapayev?

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15 minutes ago, mofton said:

She's more so than Emerald at least.

Smoke on RNCL is probably here to stay, too many of the other ships would need a huge re-work without it because most of the line is overtiered. I can't see WG spending the energy for years (look how long USN cruiser split has taken, or how long it took them to give NOLA stupid-good concealment in desperation).

I generally like it, though note that ORP Konrad is in fact Danae and not an Emerald.

If you wanted an Emerald prem I'd keep it at T5, give it HE, no repair, up the torpedoes to 10km range so it's actually a torpedo threat rather than just slightly better Konigsberg, then expect to sell five or maybe even six of them.

Arethusa's guns would be Leanders which not only means more forward firepower, but also means far better shells, arcs, penetration. Emerald has high MV, but shells designed by some 1890's moron and they have all the ballistic properties of a bowler hat.

Arethusa going on Huang He would also lack the ridiculously borked armor, even if it's light. I've not seen Huang He get citadelled by 4in HE shells yet...

Arethusa/Huang He would also get 9.5 instead of 11.5km concealment stock, which is a huge 2km advantage.

yeh sorry. we originally had it correct. but i corrected him about the emerald/danae because he got confused about the tiers and thats where we got confused. thanks for letting us know though.

edit: im talking about the ORP Conrad

Edited by RiverTheIdiot

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14 minutes ago, mofton said:

The moment I saw the line reveal my heart sank, Emerald at 5? An 8-gun CL at a tier with Cleveland? A light/economy British Cleveland at T7 and Edinburgh trying to play with the 1950's Chapayev?

Pretty much.  No true Towns either; Edinburghs don't count imo lol

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23 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

Pretty much.  No true Towns either; Edinburghs don't count imo lol

yeh the only one is belfast. 

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1 hour ago, mofton said:

A light/economy British Cleveland at T7 and Edinburgh trying to play with the 1950's Chapayev?

Fiji is the alpha dog of the T7 cruisers

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1 minute ago, Ju87s said:

Fiji is the alpha dog of the T7 cruisers

overall fiji yes cruiser vs cruiser pensacola can crush them pretty badly

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2 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

I don't disagree with this.  WG should have gotten it right the first time, but they were bound and determined to overtier them and compensate with gimmicks.

WG got the UK CL line right, they just got the German and Russian lines wrong. 

Given what was known at the time, the UK CL line fit just fine. Its only WG's own shortsightedness that has caused problems. 

Kirov at tier V? Thats fine, given the historically poor firing rate (enjoy your 2rpm, nerds). Big risk, big reward ship. 

Emden at tier V? Also fine, if you cheat a little and use the 4 x II setup originally intended. 

Duguay Trouin at tier V? Again, fine. Its a direct companion to Omaha in terms of design. There isn't really a citadel in terms of armour, which should help deal with the fragility issue. 

Furutaka A&B, Omaha and Emerald all mesh well with these ships. Even Arethusa works well; given limited main battery power in exchange for more modern guns with better arcs. 

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5 hours ago, Vaidency said:

If the objective is to replace a chronically underperforming ship with a better one, I don't really see how the Arethusa would be an upgrade over the Emerald.  Both ships have the same broadside firepower but Emerald is slightly faster, has more torpedo tubes and is significantly heavier (ie: more hitpoints.)  Arethusa is in the game in the form of Huang He and has 3000 less hitpoints than Emerald.  Both ships are minimally armored so there's no advantage there either way. 

 

Arethusa/Huang He's only advantage is having the main battery in superfiring turrets, which gives better forward angles, but I don't think that's really worth the tradeoff.  It certainly wouldn't be a big upgrade.

 

The biggest reason Emerald sucks is that it's is very difficult to get a significant number of guns on target unless you go full broadside, add in bad arcs and pen and it's very hard to get the best out of the ship because she doesn't give many circumstances to use it. She's also very slow on the rudder.

These are all things that would be much improved, as would the armour scheme, overall Emerald isn;t badly armed, it just can't effectively use what it's got.

 

 

As far as an Emerald premium. Give it standard DD smoke, HE, and Minnie's torps.

 

 

 

As an aside i disagree on replacing Danae with Delihi, it wouldn't fix any of Danae's issues but would actually make the guns worse as even with RNAP autobounce angle USN 5" AP is going to have a hard time penetrating anything. Thats kinda why Leander and Fiji are such sweet spots, they face more ships they can penetrate the decks and extremity armour of than higher tiered ships which really struggle with 40mm and 50mm decks. Danae's issues all come back to her incredibly thin deck armour.

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4 hours ago, mr3awsome said:

WG got the UK CL line right, they just got the German and Russian lines wrong. 

Given what was known at the time, the UK CL line fit just fine. Its only WG's own shortsightedness that has caused problems. 

 

Except those German and Russian ships were in first.  Since those were the choices that were made, the UK CL tiering was flat wrong, and required gimmicky smoke which really screwed everything up.

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They also didn't add smoke to make up for them being undertiered, they added smoke and then tiered them based on how powerful the smoke made them.

 

People really need to remember the first round of RNCL's, the only gimmick they had was smoke, they were designed around the smoke, not the other way around. But that proved to be a bit too good and they basically had to pull a massive rebalance which is how they ended up so gimmicky. They're Gimmicky because smoke firing proved more powerful than expected not because they were designed to be gimmicky. Take Belfast's radar away and you have round 1 Edinburgh minus torps. Belfast is more or less what first pass RNCL's looked like.

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I feel the UK cruisers are fine as is. They certainly take some work to get used to and you need to be thinking a few steps ahead so you don't get insta-deleted should the enemy catch you broadside on (which I've made the mistake of more than a few times) but overall I've found them to be capable of a very rewarding game.

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8 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

Pretty much.  No true Towns either; Edinburghs don't count imo lol

I kinda hoped we'd get the quad turret Edinburghs...

Also the extra 100mm of armor Belfast received would be nice if you lost the smoke and needed an open-water fighter.

7 hours ago, Ju87s said:

Fiji is the alpha dog of the T7 cruisers

Fiji is, it takes a smoke screen, repair party and physics defying maneuverability to get her there though. Take that away and she's a lighter armored Cleveland with worse secondaries and AA in exchange for a minimal load of torpedoes i.e. T6.

5 hours ago, mr3awsome said:

WG got the UK CL line right, they just got the German and Russian lines wrong.

I'm not sure on Emerald, she'd always have 6 guns to a broadside to Omaha's 8, and 3 forward to Omaha's 6. Even normalized I'm not convinced. If a 'normal' Leander was ever going to work at T6 I'd be astonished too.

3 hours ago, Carl said:

As an aside i disagree on replacing Danae with Delihi, it wouldn't fix any of Danae's issues but would actually make the guns worse as even with RNAP autobounce angle USN 5" AP is going to have a hard time penetrating anything. Thats kinda why Leander and Fiji are such sweet spots, they face more ships they can penetrate the decks and extremity armour of than higher tiered ships which really struggle with 40mm and 50mm decks. Danae's issues all come back to her incredibly thin deck armour.

I agree that throwing a 5in armed ship into the line is a bad idea, but I'm not quite sure what to make of Delhi's firepower. 18 RPM with HE and 5% fire chance on 5 guns, or 8 RPM with AP only? It's destroyer firepower, but T9 destroyer firepower...

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55 minutes ago, mofton said:

I agree that throwing a 5in armed ship into the line is a bad idea, but I'm not quite sure what to make of Delhi's firepower. 18 RPM with HE and 5% fire chance on 5 guns, or 8 RPM with AP only? It's destroyer firepower, but T9 destroyer firepower...

 

But it wouldn't be 18rpm with HE if it was a line ship, it would be 18 rpm with RNAP, and 5" AP probably won't have enough deck pen to not bounce off most decks it faces bar it's own regardless of the autobounce angles.

Danae's comfort issues, (and with danae it is a comfort issue, she's packing a very nice win rate), come entirely from her armour and messing with her armament does nothing about that.

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