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Pulicat

Advanced Combat Tech: Creating a Zugzwang in Warships

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There are a lot of techniques used by advanced players that aren't explained by the game at all. If you're a WoT player, these can be parallels to tech like side scraping, hull down and shooting behind an opaque bush rather than a transparent one. None really explained by the core game, and has yet to really be a known thing by the playerbase.

 

What I'm going to talk about here is something you may even do subconsciously, and I don't really know of a name for it. What you are doing is manipulating your opponent into an extremely unfavorable position.

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Spoiler

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At this point, this is where a lot of players leave it. They either engage to the end or exit blue and stay in that blue situation. What comes next is one of the strongest BB maneuvers you can take.

LdhtbMJ.png?1Mksgzrj.png?1

In your initial blue turn, you need to time it right so the level of damage you take is minimal, and try to do it as early as possible.

The same maneuver can be accomplished from engaging on your right side as well, even if his guns are facing that way. A lot of how you make this maneuver depends on enemy/ally placements, islands etc. This can also be executed by cruiser v cruiser and destroyer v destroyer. Keep in mind you don't necessarily need allies. You are still the biggest threat to your opponent in this advantageous position.

Spoiler

Discord convo pertaining to this:

[7:16 PM] [NDA] Captain_F22ACE: like it, another thing that would be nice is heatmaps like in wot
 
 
 
[7:18 PM] [NDA] Captain_F22ACE: also, the green and blue options in pic 3 opens one up to bad postioning for you to whoever is behind the red BB(edited)
 
 
 
[7:21 PM] [07]Pulicat: think of it this way
 
 
 
[7:21 PM] [07]Pulicat: you are both in a bad position to begin with.
 
 
 
[7:22 PM] [07]Pulicat: what you are doing is rectifying yours early and making it so the opponent can't fix.
 
 
 
[7:22 PM] [NDA] Captain_F22ACE: pretty much
 
 
 
[7:23 PM] [07]Pulicat: i mean, even if you end up beating the BB you are spiraling in at
 
 
 
[7:23 PM] [07]Pulicat: you are still stuck by his allies from ever escaping.
 
 
 
[7:23 PM] [NDA] Captain_F22ACE: however in that case, I'm always trying to see who has fired or may focus on me before I try rotating around
 
 
 
[7:23 PM] [NDA] Captain_F22ACE: yep
 
 
 
[7:24 PM] [07]Pulicat: i mean, i never asked for a blind turn. of course it's calculated between enemy salvo gaps.
 
 
 
[7:25 PM] [NDA] Captain_F22ACE: well, we understand that, doubt many players take that into account
 
 
 
[7:26 PM] [07]Pulicat: The potatoes who are unable to understand a basic tech like making your turns when you wont get shot surely will not understand an advanced tech to begin with.
 
 
 
[7:26 PM] [07]Pulicat: I leave the potato guides to people like notser.
 
 
 
[7:26 PM] [NDA] Captain_F22ACE: graphs like this remind me a lot of ACM or Air Combat Maneuvers, great for teaching, but have a lot of context attached with them(edited)
 
 
 
[7:28 PM] [07]Pulicat: That's why I gave it in a bland hypothetical. The method at which you achieve the end result in image 4 is going to vary greatly, but image 4 is what you should be aiming for nonetheless.
 
 
 
[7:28 PM] [NDA] Captain_F22ACE: yes
 
 
 
[7:28 PM] [07]Pulicat: some ships like zao can achieve this position without having to be in any of the movements beforehand simply by remaining stealth while a cruiser walks into your position.(edited)
 
 
 
[7:28 PM] [07]Pulicat: this was done a lot in high typhoon battles.

 

Edited by Pulicat
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6 minutes ago, Spartias said:

The...

 

"How to execute a kite" maneuver.

Kites are done more for your safety, and at much longer distances than what this would be at. You are close enough to keep your opponent spotted & execute him should he try to turn away.

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Yeah but it's still the same basic maneuver right? It's the same advantages that are provided. Just... closer in with battleship armor instead of distance and cruiser maneuverability.

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3 minutes ago, Spartias said:

Yeah but it's still the same basic maneuver right? It's the same advantages that are provided. Just... closer in with battleship armor instead of distance and cruiser maneuverability.

Far from the same advantages. Kiting protects yourself. You would be the 'allies' in the scenario I provided if that was what you were doing.

And you can perform image 4 with any type of ship. Imagine it being a cruiser in stealth or smoke, or one that is durable such as hinden or roon. A DD can do this as well with torp threat. Normally, a ship that is engaging can either stealth or turn around to escape safetly, or try to bow tank or keep going. Your job is to make sure their safe options are no longer safe, creating a no win, no beneficial action, position for your opponent. There is no bloody way you're doing that without putting yourself at some risk, which is what kiting avoids.

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The parallel when warships had sails was having the weather gauge, you can respond to any movement with advantage. 

I think Zugzwang translates as "move compulsion". In that situation, you'd be perfectly safe if you were not on the move. If its your move, all your moves lose. 

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2 minutes ago, Pugilistic said:

The parallel when warships had sails was having the weather gauge, you can respond to any movement with advantage. 

I think Zugzwang translates as "move compulsion". In that situation, you'd be perfectly safe if you were not on the move. If its your move, all your moves lose. 

It does, but even not moving as the red battleship or whatever is a bad option.

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Couple things:

First, the hypothetical didn't have friendlies of any sort - if they are a concern (vs a late game or isolated on the wrong side of D cap on North) they should be in the initial scenario.

Second, the reaction for the red player isn't necessarily to swing the turrets around, a fairly common alternative would be to watch them turn their whole ship. Often even overturning in an effort to get all the guns to bear.

Suppose it would be easier to say have an exit plan ahead of time...or just turn around while their turrets are pointing the wrong and assume a stance of dominance the kiting position.

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48 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

Far from the same advantages. Kiting protects yourself. You would be the 'allies' in the scenario I provided if that was what you were doing.

And you can perform image 4 with any type of ship. Imagine it being a cruiser in stealth or smoke, or one that is durable such as hinden or roon. A DD can do this as well with torp threat. Normally, a ship that is engaging can either stealth or turn around to escape safetly, or try to bow tank or keep going. Your job is to make sure their safe options are no longer safe, creating a no win, no beneficial action, position for your opponent. There is no bloody way you're doing that without putting yourself at some risk, which is what kiting avoids.

Gotcha gotcha. I do that maneuver really often. I just normally call it kiting since I'm pulling away from the enemy. I guess I just see it as being easier to protect myself and easier to dictate the terms of the engagement once the turn has been completed.

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I appreciate this kind of post as there are many nuances that knuckle draggers like me need explaining.  This tactic is actually something I’ve started doing recently as I notice some you tubers do precisely this.  It has helped my game, but I also have to state I’ve been called out for being a chicken BB for “running away” - apparently suicidal or pyrrhic tanking is the accepted norm for most.  

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17 hours ago, Spartias said:

Gotcha gotcha. I do that maneuver really often. I just normally call it kiting since I'm pulling away from the enemy. I guess I just see it as being easier to protect myself and easier to dictate the terms of the engagement once the turn has been completed.

Yeah, I always think of it as kiting too. Simply by turning  off a bit and being patient about shooting you can make most incoming salvos miss. I do it a lot in most of my BBs, but it depends on the ship, sometimes I prefer to turn in and engage in Montana if the other ship has 16" guns because Montana's stern is so easy to cit. 

But thanks for this explanation Pulicat, it's really clear and simple.

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Should post this in  guides could help some of the newer players, either way well written

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8 hours ago, cheereereerios said:

Couple things:

First, the hypothetical didn't have friendlies of any sort - if they are a concern (vs a late game or isolated on the wrong side of D cap on North) they should be in the initial scenario.

Second, the reaction for the red player isn't necessarily to swing the turrets around, a fairly common alternative would be to watch them turn their whole ship. Often even overturning in an effort to get all the guns to bear.

Suppose it would be easier to say have an exit plan ahead of time...or just turn around while their turrets are pointing the wrong and assume a stance of dominance the kiting position.

 

7 hours ago, FrodoFraggin said:

I appreciate this kind of post as there are many nuances that knuckle draggers like me need explaining.  This tactic is actually something I’ve started doing recently as I notice some you tubers do precisely this.  It has helped my game, but I also have to state I’ve been called out for being a chicken BB for “running away” - apparently suicidal or pyrrhic tanking is the accepted norm for most.  

Of course. There are a lot of variables in the game. This isn't a situation you're going to force, but if you notice an enemy that is or may separate from the pack enough to engage him in this way, you are putting him in a rough position. The method at which you achieve image 4 can vary a lot as well. You may be from stealth, or come around an island etc.

 

In your comment about the red player reaction, yes he could keep his guns facing left. However it's still possible to create the position by simply not turning your guns either in image 3, but the direction at which you drag him out will be different. Again, there are plenty of situations that can all play out differently, but the more situations you can conform to an end tactic, the less random your encounters can be.

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So this is the technical name for the wigglewaggle of stern kiting (making your ship's bum swing from side to side in an attractive manner while being chased)? Henceforth I shall call mine the Zugzwang Wigglewaggle (mod vs. Pulicat 2017)

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This is reason why I never got into Naval Action.  These maneuver charts makes my head hurt.

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On 12/25/2017 at 8:26 AM, Pulicat said:

 

Of course. There are a lot of variables in the game. This isn't a situation you're going to force, but if you notice an enemy that is or may separate from the pack enough to engage him in this way, you are putting him in a rough position. The method at which you achieve image 4 can vary a lot as well. You may be from stealth, or come around an island etc.

 

In your comment about the red player reaction, yes he could keep his guns facing left. However it's still possible to create the position by simply not turning your guns either in image 3, but the direction at which you drag him out will be different. Again, there are plenty of situations that can all play out differently, but the more situations you can conform to an end tactic, the less random your encounters can be.

Probably depends on who it is, and why either a good memory or MM helps.

Option A: it's Pulicat - I'm not in that position because I've stayed on the other side of the map hitting F3 on them and their entire div the whole match.

Option B: some random orange - not really worried too much.

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This is called Ido Seigyou. The Japanese strategy of learning and then controlling the opponent's movement. In Kendo it's called mitori-geiko, and involves watching the other fighter train. In combat, a probing strike or 'Kensen' is used to test defenses, and attack accordingly.

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