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Seniorious

Optional Consumable for high tier German Cruisers

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Given that high tier German ships suffer in comparison to their peers, even if they're not necessarily bad, I considered a different but perhaps useable consumable. 
Specifically, people wanted Prinz Eugen to have radar due to historical reasons, and while Hydro is strong....it's not the same. It's great for the extreme CQC capability of German Cruisers, the other lines don't come close, bar the exception of Des Moines, though angling can null it's damage. However, Radar is also common across several nations already. Varying range and duration, but it also sees through everything. It's a guaranteed spot within it's range. 

What I'm thinking of is a 'Passive Radar' consumable. The specific range it affects is higher than normal radar, but there's a catch. It does not force detection within range. Rather, it's a debuff.  Example: 

Passive Radar:

1 minute duration; 3 minutes cool down 

Range : 15km 

Effect: Increases the detectability of all ships inside the range by 50% 

This would affect all situations, including smoke firing.  If a ship inside a smoke is firing and has a detection range of 7km, then the consumable would increase that by 3.5km to 10.5km, meaning it can be spotted from further away. 
Battleships with a detection of 13km like Scharnhorst, would receive a 6.5km debuff to 19.5. This means that if Hipper/Prinz/Hinden is behind a rock and activates it, they won't spot Scharnhorst, but it would still debuff him. At that point, for the duration of the consumable Scharnhorst would be visible from 19.5km, meaning anyone else with LoS can easily see him. If a DD has a 6km detection range and pushes towards a cap, but KMS uses consumable, the DD's detection range increases to 9km. Inside a smoke, it becomes 3km instead of 2km. It won't force the spotting of the DD, he has a better chance of escaping, but if someone stacks a fire in the middle of the debuff his concealment will rise even higher. Essentially, It's a very team-oriented consumable. It cannot powerplay  situation like normal radar, it can't spot torps like hydro, but it has a wide range. 
As a result of the above mechanics, this does mean that cover works. You can't come around a corner and pop Passive Radar, it won't really help you unless you have a teammate in a different position to spot. Otherwise, you won't spot anything. It makes hard cover viable. 
This consumable would take the place of Defensive Fire or Hydro, so on an Eugen,  you'd have to choose between DF, Hydro, or PR but keep second consumable of fighter plane.  I believe this would encourage scouting and better teamplay, synergizing Destroyers and German Cruisers. You could have a Z-23 with Hydro pushing a cap with a Hipper behind him running PR in tandem,  allowing torp detection and priority spotting of enemy DDs.

Anyone open to discuss changes to the actual mechanics or range/effect?

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Let's create one more toy for one more line to hose over DDs even more.

Not like there isn't precedent for that policy after all.

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While I like the general idea, it ventures way over the "but only on uneven tuesdays" line. A convoluted, non-transparent game mechanic that overcomplicates things.

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14 minutes ago, Prothall said:

Let's create one more toy for one more line to hose over DDs even more.

Not like there isn't precedent for that policy after all.

It hoses all classes, and specifically removes the chance of stealth battleships sneaking in. People radar expecting DDs, but are caught off guard by 11km detect BBs. 
As I said, this is a more 'openwater' consumable. It has no hard detect. This module won't detect DDs sitting in smoke quietly capping. If he doesn't fire, no one can see him unless they're inside the 2km hard detect that always existed. It permits DDs to passive cap and prevents larger ships from pushing in with stealth.

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There's no such thing as "passive radar".  If anything, Hydrophones are passive sonar.  And frankly, when a player uses Hydro, anyone detected shouldn't even KNOW  that they've been detected, because there's no betraying signal.  All Hydro is, is a just a listening device, unlike radar which sends out radio pulses to bounce off of the things it detects.

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40 minutes ago, Seniorious said:

It hoses all classes, and specifically removes the chance of stealth battleships sneaking in. People radar expecting DDs, but are caught off guard by 11km detect BBs. 
As I said, this is a more 'openwater' consumable. It has no hard detect. This module won't detect DDs sitting in smoke quietly capping. If he doesn't fire, no one can see him unless they're inside the 2km hard detect that always existed. It permits DDs to passive cap and prevents larger ships from pushing in with stealth.

DD players get triggered by anything that will even slightly effect their "ride the detectability radius spamming torpedoes" play style. I think this is a great idea and would be a good counter to stealth battleships which just yesterday flamu was talking about needing to be fixed and it really doesnt even effect DD's who play correctly, it punishes DD's that play wrong and it nerfs stealth BB, its a win win for everyone.

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1 hour ago, manon45 said:

DD players get triggered by anything that will even slightly effect their "ride the detectability radius spamming torpedoes" play style. I think this is a great idea and would be a good counter to stealth battleships which just yesterday flamu was talking about needing to be fixed and it really doesnt even effect DD's who play correctly, it punishes DD's that play wrong and it nerfs stealth BB, its a win win for everyone.

I'll save the next person the trouble of mentioning how it wouldn't affect RU DDs much since they're always spotted, but would be awful on IJN. 

 

1 hour ago, Lert said:

While I like the general idea, it ventures way over the "but only on uneven tuesdays" line. A convoluted, non-transparent game mechanic that overcomplicates things.

I suppose so. In a way, it's basically normal radar that instead of hard detect, is based on LoS and can't sight through things. 
That's an oversimplification of my idea, and actually more inline with how radar SHOULD work. 
I see how in truth, my mechanic would be quite confusing and would result in a lot of hackusations, because "I shouldn't have been spotted my detect is xxx flipping cheater111" 
Even so, I believe if the mechanic was made obvious then it might be a better radar overall. Being hardspotted with radar, even with the low duration, is annoying. It does encourage plays too though..
I mainly came to the idea while looking at how the high tier cruisers compare. 
I actually have no issues with my Hipper and Prinz, I don't get monster games, but I certainly get into the top spots each match even with low damage because they're good support ships. They can't start fires like Mogami, don't have AP pen and stealth like NO/SoonBaltimore, don't have the same range and HE firepower as Chapa nor the Radar.....they get good AA, ironically, and sonar. Also dank AP Alpha. But with just 8 guns they suffer in most situations. Built in IFHE helps, but they can't do anything specifically good besides being CQC monsters with dual torp launchers per side with epic angles and high AP alpha that ends things fast, besides the turtleback. 
But, CA have to avoid CQC usually because they're too squishy to close distance well. It'd take either a flat buff to something, or a consumable that makes them more utilitarian; the latter I went with. 
No matter how well you play, the low HE damage and fire chance limits damage even with the 1/4th , and weak AP performance means without broadsides, you lose a lot of DPM. They punish broadsides hard, but angling mitigates their damage extremely. The low chance of fires and low HE Alpha limits punishing angles, and the AP....well yeah, angles. It puts them into a highly situational role, leaving you sitting with AP loaded and waiting like a BB for that broadside or predicted broad, where with KM 203mm guns, 2 citadels equals a single 16" shell citadel. Add in normal pens or more citadels, and you punish like a BB.  But after that...you just harass with consistent, if light HE damage on the rest. 
Strong sonar and 1/4 means you do make a good DD companion though, you punch through RU DDs and the high velocity makes hitting them a cinch, I feel even easier than the RU 152mm guns. 
Though the lack of guns results in more middling damage. 

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High tier German cruisers suffer?

We must be playing a completely different game.

And I don't like your suggestion. Leave overpowered consumable like that to Halloween event plz.

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On 12/24/2017 at 6:42 AM, Exciton8964 said:

High tier German cruisers suffer?

We must be playing a completely different game.

And I don't like your suggestion. Leave overpowered consumable like that to Halloween event plz.

Well, maybe not the Roon and Hindy, but the Yorck, Hipper, and Prinz Eugen has suffered from the power creep of everything else, and are now pretty consistently at the bottom of the stats for T7 and T8.

 

Frankly, all three are solid ships, and all they really need is one of two things:

(A) a reduction in their pretty ludicrously huge detection range

(B) A 15% or so ROF buff.

 

Both are easy to accomplish in a patch, and really would make both considerably more competitive.  It's pretty ludicrous that several T7 and T8 BBs can out-stealth them, and the ROF is stupidly low now, compared to everything else.

 

And, no, since WG refused to be bothered to fix the broken idiocy that is Radar, I am VERY strongly against putting it on any ship. Period.  Honestly, Radar should only show ships on the Minimap, NOT on the main display, until they fix the LOS moronic behavior that it has now.

Edited by EAnybody

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6 hours ago, EAnybody said:

Well, maybe not the Roon and Hindy, but the Yorck, Hipper, and Prinz Eugen has suffered from the power creep of everything else, and are now pretty consistently at the bottom of the stats for T7 and T8.

 

Frankly, all three are solid ships, and all they really need is one of two things:

(A) a reduction in their pretty ludicrously huge detection range

(B) A 15% or so ROF buff.

 

Both are easy to accomplish in a patch, and really would make both considerably more competitive.  It's pretty ludicrous that several T7 and T8 BBs can out-stealth them, and the ROF is stupidly low now, compared to everything else.

 

And, no, since WG refused to be bothered to fix the broken idiocy that is Radar, I am VERY strongly against putting it on any ship. Period.  Honestly, Radar should only show ships on the Minimap, NOT on the main display, until they fix the LOS moronic behavior that it has now.

The main reason the Hipper and Eugen have the detection is because of WG's other mechanics for determining basic detection and HP pool, which typically relies on mast height or superstructure for detect (though this is very pliable so WG bends it often) and tonnage for HP. They're balanced on the assumption their massive HP advantage over other T8 cruiser is actually worth it, but it's partially negated by the high detect. 

Specifically, despite their high AP Alpha, due to having just 8 total gun barrels and a higher reload, the DPM of the Hipper-class cruisers pales to the others. It gets worse if you compare the HE. 
The most reasonable choice would be to reduce the reload speed to 12 seconds instead of 13 seconds. Buffing the detection of an already bulky cruiser would result in a ship that is a bit too powerful.  11.5km of the Prinz Eugen with CE and Concealment Module is fine, and iirc Hipper is slightly lower. 
The main point I made was to give the German cruisers a radar that doesn't do the simple check of " shipinrange=yes, detected=yes" or "Shipinrange=no, detected=no" with no other defining factor. 

A case could be made for Hydro, as that would be more 'ok', but buffing it gets nasty fast. As it is, the Hydro of Hipper-class is at 5.5km for ship detection iirc, and about 3.4ish~ for torpedoes. One could buff the ship detection range, but too far and it quickly turns into a poorman's radar with mediocre range but lasts 1:30.  E.G, imagine KMS cruisers from Hipper and up having ship spotting hydro ranges of 7km at T8, 7.5km at T9, and 8km at T10. Even if it was 6.5km at T8 and adjusted on higher tiers, it's still damn powerful for a consumable that lasts that long. As a result, they're in a weird situation where buffing other aspects gets OP fast, so the only reasonable thing is lightly increasing their RoF by 1 or 1.5 seconds.

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Hey

I would prefer that the Prinz Eugen gets a slight change from Hipper, like maybe a heal similar to Atago.  Both German ships need a serious ROF increase of about 2 seconds to make them more able to compete with their peers.  Also a shame they get hindered with the 6km torps from T8 on up but that's livable I guess.  A Buff is much needed IMHO.

 

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Yea, how about giving Hindenburg a Hydro boost and extend the range to 20km?   :cap_haloween:

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