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digger52

Duke of York , why the fuss?

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I am interested in the views of shipmates that have the ship as I bought mine 24 hours ago and been having a blast.

Firstly I guess i need to explain why I dropped cash

1/ Holiday season and family commitments would meant I probably wont complete the campaign

2/ Historical reasons - My grandfather served on the Barnham, and died in WW2, my father whist in the royal artillery was seconded to the merchant navy as an AA gunnery saergent, I have his Atlantic Campaign medal in my study drawer as I type this, so he was reliant on the royal Navy to keep him and his shipmates safe. If my family hadnt emigrated I would have been in the RN, 200 years of family tradition.

3/ I enjoy the british BBs in game , yes even the monarch.

 

So the DOY has had a lot of bad press and I was unsure what to expect, I do take LWM reviews with a grain of salt as they are very informative but I have premium ships that she wasnt happy about eg HMAS Perth, but thats ok we all have different playstyles.

 

Im not worried about a lack of scout plane as I tend to fight at less than 15km in a BB. I run a premium account and a 17 point or higher captain so I have enough repair options available. I did get a second special repair from a SC, the first I run on my Yamato so I put this second on the DOY, so had no problem managing damage or repair.

The guns are great, maybe its the british AP with the different fusing but against Scharnhorsts, Nagatos etc , very happy and even took on the german tier 9 who was crazy enough to sail broadside to me, did 18000 damage in 1 salvo.

What sets it apart to me is the hydro as saved my bacon twice so far with deep running torps and you dont need to switch ammo to then take out a dd due to the AP fuses.Cant comment on the AA as the matches where there was a CV, they kept away from me.

The reload was an issue but, not a deal breaker as you are going with concealment whilst you reload.

 

My question to others that have the ship is, has it been bagged too agressively as I am having a ball with mine, opinions respected. I know its early days but interested never the less.

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It's worse than KGV at the moment... I'm pretty sure WG will realize at some point, these changes were thrown in last minute with minimal testing.

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Why pay for the DoY when you can get the better KGV for free?

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Thank you for the insight.

After reading and watching some of the reviews I wasnt sure if she was worth the time or not.

Now I definitely think I'll put in the time towards earning her.

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One less heal than the free alternative.

Far longer reload than the free alternative.

Longer rudder shift than the free alternative.

I mean, you can argue that you're 'having a blast' all you want but the simple facts are that it's a mediocre, washed down, limp-banana version of the free tech tree alternative. And, no, Hydro doesn't save her.

But the worst thing is that she could've been an interesting ship with a unique playstyle. But WG decided to go with the mediocre, washed down, limp-banana version instead.

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I swear some people dont read , before commenting,

 

so ill try again,

 

you ask why buy the DOY when you can get the KGV for free?

 

I have the KGV, I wanted the DOY for the reasons I gave including its historical significance to me. It also enabled me to jump into the second campaign , as I have family commitments over the next few weeks.

 

The way i fight in BBs, i never end up using the last heal, kill or be killed is my motto , it is not mediocre, and I have killed 3 dds so far because of the hydro and the last battle fought off a tier 8 CVs planes with the AA whilst killing a tirpitz. I use it very differently to a KGV, You raise very good points Lert but too aggressively for me. I do find her interesting but do appreciate your opinion, as long as you respect mine.

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Its determinedly mediocre. I bought it because I probably would not be able to finish both campaigns without having it upfront. 

It is "OK", but it is not a great flank fighter. When things start to go south and you need to flip around to start kiting that slow turn circle guarantees that the Reds will have a chance to punish you hard.

It performs best when you are an element of the main push. You don't get focused, and the hydro can help protect the group as they push into a Cap.

Kinda meh. I wouldn't call it Garbage, but then I don't have a KGV to compare it to.

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

One less heal than the free alternative.

Far longer reload than the free alternative.

Longer rudder shift than the free alternative.

I mean, you can argue that you're 'having a blast' all you want but the simple facts are that it's a mediocre, washed down, limp-banana version of the free tech tree alternative. And, no, Hydro doesn't save her.

But the worst thing is that she could've been an interesting ship with a unique playstyle. But WG decided to go with the mediocre, washed down, limp-banana version instead.

The "cruiser" DoY was a terrible idea Lert. No two ways about it.

There are plenty of battlecruisers that they could do something like that with.  DoY was the wrong ship for it.

I respect your opinions and often find that we agree on things.  So I'm at a loss as to why you're struggling with this so much.

Cruiser DoY would have been nothing more than a novelty that got played a few times then retired after the "new" wore off.

Maybe they could do something like that with Alaska and make her a Tier 6 or something.

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I can see why some would want DoY.  It does have a history behind it.  Same reason I got the Graf Spee.  I doubt I'd buy the DoY, but that's just my preference.  I don't hate on it, but I doubt I'd spend money on it even with its history.  Some like Lert (and many others) who tested the pre-release version with the cruiser-like build thought it could have a unique play style.  But many (myself included) felt it would have been bad for the game.  The unicum players likely could have used the earlier version in a different play style.  But those who disagreed felt like the average player would use it just to sit at the back and spam HE.  So WG added a heal but hit it with a big nerf hammer.  What resulted I don't think really made many happy as (IMO) they rushed through the nerfs to get it out in time for the North Cape campaign. 

But I can see how the hydro and extra AA could give some interesting play if it fits into how you use a ship.  I haven't ground up the RN BB line to the KGV, so I can't make a good comparison.  But I'm not a huge fan of the RN BB line.  I do have the Warspite and play it a little.  But I like the BB play style of the Gucci Caesar and the Shiny Horse much better.  But that's just my preference.  It's good that we do have variety in the game or it would get dull pretty quick.  So I don't hate on it, it's just not for me. 

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12 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

Cruiser DoY would have been nothing more than a novelty that got played a few times then retired after the "new" wore off.

Compared to the current DoY which is only worth buying for the early campaign, and wont be played after that?

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2 hours ago, digger52 said:

I am interested in the views of shipmates that have the ship as I bought mine 24 hours ago and been having a blast.

 

In the right hands, she is very effective.  In some regards the "fun" in this ship is the challenge her gimps give her.  For those who do well in the KGV...with a few changes in style and perhaps some different captain specs, they will also do well in the DoY.

I use Premium RT and Superintendent...that's four RT.  While there are lots of games I wish I had the fourth RT...I don't play many where I use five. So Superintendent is key here to getting me to four.  The side benefit of Superintendent is it also bumps hydro from two to three.  I almost always use all my hydro.

I play adrenaline rush.  This dovetails with concealment expert and the ability to overcome the ROF gimp.  As long as I can go silent to avoid destruction, I will save the RT until absolutely needed and run a damaged ship.  A 50% HP ship reduces salvo cycles by nigh three seconds.  29.5 down to 26.5.

Rudder shift is bad.  This places a higher skill on proper positioning and picking the correct times to make the turns.

I guess, all in all, skills and experience can take a DoY from a relatively gimped ship and make it a good ship.  But with all that effort to get good, there is nothing left to become great.  Don't get me wrong, I've had some unicum moments in the DoY.  It "can" deliver great games.  But its "out of the box" capabilities are gimped and require a lot of effort to bring it up to par.  Again, its that challenge that can make it fun, if one is so inclined.

I would rather have a good player in a DoY on my team than an average player in any other T7 BB. 

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Duke of York was never going to get a fair shake, because it was a very divisive ship in testing that WG revised at the last minute. I believe that some supertesters and community contributors essentially have it out for the ship because they were fans of the "heavy cruiser" DoY, and are angry that we got the traditional battleship version instead. For some people, this ship was going to stink no matter what. I can't really blame them for that, but it has given the DoY a bad reputation.

That said, Lert is correct. She's inferior to KGV in a lot of ways, and what she gains doesn't fairly compensate her for what she loses. But it bears mentioning that KGV is a damned fine ship, and she can afford to lose some of her strengths before being consigned to the station of being a garbage barge. Duke of York is not a good ship, but she's not terrible. Mouse's review was spot on with her skill floor/ceiling: it's hard to do terribly in DoY, but it's also difficult to pull out a really great game. I have the ship, and I find her a lot easier to like than ships like Hood and Ashitaka. She's not particularly strong from a competitive standpoint, but she is fun, and she's still good enough to get the job done (though with a bit more effort than most other Tier VII BBs).

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DoY is a ship that i would never buy, its just a straight worse KGV, a nerfed KGV. The only reason ill probably get one is because its free. 

 

For British BBs, KGV is free and better, Hood is better, Nelson is better and Warspite a tier lower is better. 

 

Im playing a lot this last few days and i almost dont see DoY, so its likely a sales failure. Last year by this time we could see lots of Spees sailing around. If WG want DoY to have any future they will need to change/buff her. 

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It's exciting reading the comments (going over old ground, should they have done this, why didn't they do that!). Truly. But even though the review is out and the reviewer(s) (yes, there were several) said that it wasn't the premium you wanted to buy - some people went out and bought it. Or they did the missions and got it (no problem there). 

But ask yourself, are you getting the ship because it works well at its tier, or are you getting it for your collection. The OP was totally going with collection. The differences between the two ships (KGV) are pretty small (I never use more than 3 heals in a battle myself), and the hydro arguably does enable the player to get into the scrum with lead elements.

-I- would like to have nice premiums. Ships that do something that no other ship at that tier can do well. I want gudbotes. Kamikaze R is a great example of a bote that does its job very well. So is Kidd, for a completely different reason.

But I also picked up Arizona and Texas. One, you make detonation jokes about, and the other - doesn't quite manage to swat down all the planes that Tier 7 throws at it. Both of them are okay for me. Just as the DoY is okay for OP. And there's nowhere to go but up - WG doesn't nerf premium ships.

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The irony is that DOY sucks in WoWS while Scharnhorst in game is amazing.  Duke of York historically spanked-the-ever-living-sh*t out of Scharnhorst up and down every meaningful way possible.  DOY picked the German ship apart and showed what a proper Battleship can do.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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13 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The irony is that DOY sucks in WoWS while Scharnhorst in game is amazing.  Duke of York historically spanked-the-ever-living-sh*t out of Scharnhorst up and down every meaningful way possible.  DOY picked the German ship apart and showed what a proper Battleship can do.

Mostly because very early in the battle a few arguably lucky shells from Dookie disabled Scharnhorst's fire control radar and 2/3 of her main battery firepower, IIRC. The rest of the fight was beating up on a cripple, and even then the Dookie's captain praised the fighting spirit of Scharnhorst's crew.

Besides, Scharnhorst's design philosophy was to not try and brawl with full-on battleships, so she was way out of her element to begin with.

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8 minutes ago, Lert said:

Mostly because very early in the battle a few arguably lucky shells from Dookie disabled Scharnhorst's fire control radar and 2/3 of her main battery firepower, IIRC/ The rest of the fight was beating up on a cripple, and even then the Dookie's captain praised the fighting spirit of Scharnhorst's crew.

Besides, Scharnhorst's design philosophy was to not try and brawl with full-on battleships, so she was way out of her element to begin with.

That sounds exactly like a good spanking to me, Lert :Smile_Default:

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Just now, HazeGrayUnderway said:

That sounds exactly like a good spanking to me, Lert :Smile_Default:

Oh no doubt. Just putting things into perspective.

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6 minutes ago, Lert said:

Mostly because very early in the battle a few arguably lucky shells from Dookie disabled Scharnhorst's fire control radar and 2/3 of her main battery firepower, IIRC/ The rest of the fight was beating up on a cripple, and even then the Dookie's captain praised the fighting spirit of Scharnhorst's crew.

Besides, Scharnhorst's design philosophy was to not try and brawl with full-on battleships, so she was way out of her element to begin with.

You forgot the detail about the cruiser and DD the RN brought with them. 

The problem is: the techtree ship beats the premium in every part of the competition. And a well played KGV is as good as a Scharnhorst. 

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7 hours ago, TheDreadnought said:

The "cruiser" DoY was a terrible idea Lert. No two ways about it.

There are plenty of battlecruisers that they could do something like that with.  DoY was the wrong ship for it.

I respect your opinions and often find that we agree on things.  So I'm at a loss as to why you're struggling with this so much.

Cruiser DoY would have been nothing more than a novelty that got played a few times then retired after the "new" wore off.

Maybe they could do something like that with Alaska and make her a Tier 6 or something.

But that would've involved creating a new ship from scratch instead of the copy-paste that WG mostly does.

7 minutes ago, Lert said:

Mostly because very early in the battle a few arguably lucky shells from Dookie disabled Scharnhorst's fire control radar and 2/3 of her main battery firepower, IIRC/ The rest of the fight was beating up on a cripple, and even then the Dookie's captain praised the fighting spirit of Scharnhorst's crew.

Besides, Scharnhorst's design philosophy was to not try and brawl with full-on battleships, so she was way out of her element to begin with.

That was Admiral Sir Bruce Fraser. He later became Commander of the British Pacific Fleet and was the signatory representing Great Britain at the Japanese surrender in September 1945.

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13 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The irony is that DOY sucks in WoWS while Scharnhorst in game is amazing.  Duke of York historically spanked-the-ever-living-sh*t out of Scharnhorst up and down every meaningful way possible.  DOY picked the German ship apart and showed what a proper Battleship can do.

 

It wasn't Scharnhorts vs DoY.

 It was Scharnhorst vs DoY, Belfast, Norfolk, Jamaica, Sheffield, and (if memory serves me) nigh eight DDs over the course of the engagement. And on top of that, DoY had the element of surprise due to night engagement and their use of radar.

Although WOWS isn't a simulator, for grins let's think about it.  Give one side Scharn and the other DoY, Belfast, Norfolk, Jamaica (Fiji class) and a few DDs. Who do you think will win that one?  Even better, put 'em all in a Cyclone where Scharn can't see the RN ships, but RN radar can highlight the Scharn.

 

Admiral Fraser summed it up:  "Gentlemen, the battle against Scharnhorst has ended in victory for us. I hope that if any of you are ever called upon to lead a ship into action against an opponent many times superior, you will command your ship as gallantly as Scharnhorst was commanded today"

 

Edited by Soshi_Sone
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Firstly merry christmas from the sunshine coast in australia, christmas morning on a beach at 30 degrees celcius always seems a little strange.

Now I think one of the posters may well have summed up why im enjoying the DOY. It may well be the emotional challenge of every one saying its a rubbish ship, so you try even harder to succeed, and the emotional reward of succeeding is even higher.

 

But I do insist everyone is undervaluing the benefit of Hydro on the ship.

Also in all the battles ive fought so far, i have not fired one round of HE. For some reason I have been having great success with the AP rounds especially against german BBs . I havent noticed the same in the KGV. It may be confirmation bias or RNG but has anyone else noticed the same if you have the ship?

 

My one beef which Lert has alluded to is the reload time and shell dispersion. It should be better than the KGV as by 1943 the RN search radar ( out to 41,000 M) and seperate gunnery radars( out to 27,000M)  were very effective and they had debugged the 14 inch guns. The initial hits by the DOY were as a result of the effective radar and yes the shots could be considered lucky as they took out Scharnhorsts radar, but no luckier than the bismark hit on the Hood.

Interestingly the final battle, fought at night  was at 11,000 Metres,  with belfast supplying the starshells and the scharhorst blind 

What would have made DOY unique is to equip it with radar as the only tier 7 bb with radar (or make it the most accurate BB because of its systems), as it was one of the deciding factors ( as well as the german dd squadron off chasing convoy shadows) to the battle.

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Quote

Now I think one of the posters may well have summed up why im enjoying the DOY. It may well be the emotional challenge of every one saying its a rubbish ship, so you try even harder to succeed, and the emotional reward of succeeding is even higher.

 

Agree.  The challenge is making her work.  And the emotional reward is higher when you do.

 

Quote

But I do insist everyone is undervaluing the benefit of Hydro on the ship.

 

I haven't noticed much of a benefit in most of my battles.  But there is "one" where I caught a DD napping in smoke.

 

Quote

Also in all the battles ive fought so far, i have not fired one round of HE. For some reason I have been having great success with the AP rounds...

 

I use AP a lot more than most.  I still switch to HE when the situation warrants it.  Many of my games are 100K+, and in most of those, AP is the predominant damage method.

 

Quote

My one beef which Lert has alluded to is the reload time ...

 

I've found Adrenaline Rush and driving around at half damage tends to fix that reload problem.  Of course, driving around at half damage is an issue in and of itself...which brings in the CE aspect of the build.

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So, having read absolutely nothing about the ship before I bought it, I picked it up because it's the key to the campaign for the permanent camos for the Tier VIs and the Scharnhorst and I'd like to get those.  Also a little pressed for time during the event as it's the holidays and I have several times I'll travel and not be able to play for a couple days.

I didn't spend much time looking at it and spec'ed it out like I would a generic battleship.  My first thoughts upon entering battle were:

  • My god, this ship is sluggish
  • The AP will barely pen anything
  • The firing angles on the aft turret are horrendous
  • These guns sure are taking a while to reload

Now, I haven't really played the British BB line, though I am aware they tend to be HE spammers.  I looked up some info on it and was not at all surprised to LittleWhiteMouse rate it "Garbage." 

That said, I swapped in the rudder shift module and permanently loaded HE and that helped it a bit.  She's still slow in a straight line and has a massive turning circle.  On the plus side the HE is effective. The guns are reasonably accurate. Her armor's not terrible. That's about it though. 

I pretty much always take superintendent on BBs, so no difference here.  I've definitely noticed I run out of Repair Party on her though.  Not sure that's worth the trade up for Hydro though.  In the last game I played with her night a CV decided I should be a pinata and after 3 aerial attacks and lots of dodging I limped away with 243 health and 0 repair party remaining.  Needless to say I spent the last 5 minutes of the game just trying not to become points for the other team. 

I've had some good games in it, but it's really not on par with other Tier VII ships.  Though I don't have the ship, it seems like a strictly worse King George V.  Also, it's competing with ships like Scharnhorst, Nagato, and Nelson, which are strong ships.  Scharnhorst is like the opposite of Duke.  Nimble, quick rate of fire, good firing arcs, and effective even with the small caliber guns. 

It's not only comparatively bad in its tier, you can end up in Tier IX games in Duke of York.  Fun times.  It's definitely not on my list of favorite ships to play.

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