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Match Maker's Unfairness

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On 1/18/2018 at 1:22 AM, YukonHunter said:

In general, the team with the most DDs wins, 90% of the time. The only exception to that is which team has the most radar.

So, when you get a match where on one side there are 3 Iowas and on the other side there are 3 Missouri's (and an extra DD) Care to guess how that match went???


MM is broken. Its BEEN broken since Beta.  (Note the BETA tag in my name, speaking from experience here). The only time it improved is when WG cut the limit on the CV nonsense down; but even that didnt fix the many many many unbalanced teams we have.

MM is one of the prime reasons why, now that Im done with the DOY missions, Im not touching Randoms for a while; Im doing the scenarios as at least that's somewhat feasible.

My observation on this is the team with less DD's loses when they lose one stupidly early on. They have to play very patiently letting the enemy make the mistakes.

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I always figured if the match was unbalanced within a certain amount of time a bot or two would be slipped in to even things, but what do I know.

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Matchmaker is random, mate. 

Every time you have gotten the crap end of the stick, there was or will be a time when matchmaker favours you. 

 

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On 1/22/2018 at 6:15 AM, Trollphoon said:

Matchmaker is random, mate. 

Every time you have gotten the crap end of the stick, there was or will be a time when matchmaker favours you. 

I doubt that.  Why then do some people have win rates as high as 80%?  That just doesn't add up to "random".

My win rate was just about 50% (which you'd expect from a fair and random match), then in the last couple of weeks it has dropped precipitously.  SOMETHING isn't quite kosher. 

Edited by jurgens613
Added info

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MM doesn't look at radars when it creates a match.   The ship comp is important, but I have a sinking feeling in my gut that your team's overall win rate is far worse than your enemies.  You know what give me a few minutes and I will look up all the stats and find the real reason you lost.

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In my experience, the people who complain most about MatchMaking are the people who understand it the least. The more games you get under your belt, and the more you learn about all ships [in-general], the more capable you will be in dealing with diverse situations.

Skill is more than knowing how to aim, and knowing the basic mechanics of the game. Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of every ship, coupled with experience playing them, is huge part of skill. When people ask for a different MM, they typically fail to address discrepancies beyond winrates and ratings. So, here again, is another thread complaining about MM that I just can't take seriously.

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Wow those are some Butt-ugly teams right there.  You are right that ship comp in this match may have played a key role in this match.  Your teams averaged winrate was 50.12% while the enemies was a 48.266%.  Keep in mind you had a semi-unicum div on your team and still lost.  If I removed the div your team would come out to a 48.07% winrate.   My best bet is your div had a bad game and no one supported them.  Both teams are a dumpster fire here and only about 5 people total in this match are what I would consider new as in less than 1000 games played.  Most of the people in this match have over 5000 games played with no signs of showing any improvement.  The best winrate on the enemy team is a 54% while you had a 63, 57, 56, and a 55.  In short, you my friend had the advantage in this match making in terms of players.

 I would need to see a replay, but I bet the game goes down something like this: you lost a dd or two early as they pushed in with no support as most of your team lemmings for safety in one direction.  Am i on the right track?  I would also wager that the second someone dies in the direction said lemming train is sailing in everyone immediately panicked and turned and ran away.  Your unicum div fought valiantly but were probably caught in an unwinnable location and lets be fair they are not in any real backpacking ships now are they?  The only real question I have left would be was this a blow out or was it not decided until the last 5 minutes of play? 

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On 25/01/2018 at 6:23 AM, jurgens613 said:

I doubt that.  Why then do some people have win rates as high as 80%?  That just doesn't add up to "random".

My win rate was just about 50% (which you'd expect from a fair and random match), then in the last couple of weeks it has dropped precipitously.  SOMETHING isn't quite kosher. 

...because those players are good, and they have more influence in the game?

For example, I play CVs, so I have a lot of influence on the game. Therefore, I have a higher win rate. 

To improve your win rate, you can do the following for starters:

- Focus killing destroyers

- Focus on finish off damaged enemies (no it is not kill stealing, it is making sure the enemy has less weapons ASAP to shoot you with, which will help you win the game)

- If you take damage, it should always be a reason (i.e. distracting enemies from a vulnerable teammate), not just because you are a battleship and you can take hits. 

- Never sail alone if there are CVs. 

 

From a commercial perspective, WG spending time to make a matchmaker is difficult enough, why would they spend time and effort on top of all the stuff they are already doing to make the matchmaker periodically ruin your games by purposely allocating you potato teammates? Unlikely man. 

Edited by Trollphoon
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Trollphoon, you talk as if this were a one on one game.  It is not.

In a truly fair and random game the odds of your team winning would be roughly the same as the odds of the other team.  Yes, I believe you are a "good player", but in a truly random selection, the other team would probably have a "good player" too.  Therefore, your win rate in random matches would tend to stay within one standard deviation of 50%.  A much higher or much lower percentage rate indicates something other than a level playing field.  Note that I highlighted the word, "random".

Now, recently my win rate has dropped precipitously.  Did I change?  No, I'm still the same.  I really don't know if there is something wrong with the matchmaking, or if some other force is acting on the system.  I may not know exactly what's wrong, but I certainly can tell when something is not right.

Happy sailing, brother.

Edited by jurgens613
clarification of language

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On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 12:23 PM, jurgens613 said:

I doubt that.

and some people believe in Santa Claus, and some believe the Earth is flat, and some believe that Republicans care, and some ...

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 12:23 PM, jurgens613 said:

Why then do some people have win rates as high as 80%?

because they know how to play to get great stats, like division up with friends, play only at certain times, and only play a certain way.

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 12:23 PM, jurgens613 said:

That just doesn't add up to "random".

no, it adds up to "knowledgeable and skilled"

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 12:23 PM, jurgens613 said:

SOMETHING isn't quite kosher. 

Yes, something isn't Kosher, and it's YOU; you just aren't that good.

I'm willing to bet that you just broke into tier 5 matches, and that tier 5 matchmaking is kicking your butt, because it is VERY different from tier 4 MM.

PLUS, you aren't knowledgeable enough concerning the metas and mechanics of the game to know HOW players with 80% win rates get them; trust me when I say they just don't log in and jump into any old random match.

If you want to have an 80% win rate, then ASK the players who do; they just LOVE to brag about how good they are and how they do it. THEN you can put in the hours and days of effort to hone your skills and find some similar players with the same goals, re-roll your account, and become a unicum.

(which is incredibly helpful in real life as the very first question they ask you when you apply for a home loan is what is your win rate in WoW?)

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3 hours ago, Umikami said:

and some people believe in Santa Claus, and some believe the Earth is flat, and some believe that Republicans care, and some ...

I don't believe in any of those things, but I do believe in math, probabilities and statistical analysis having spent much of my life as an engineer.

 

3 hours ago, Umikami said:

because they know how to play to get great stats, like division up with friends, play only at certain times, and only play a certain way.

So no one else does this, just you? 

Can players "game" the system, or does the matchmaker deliberately avoid pairing "good" teams against each other?  Neither of these conditions meet the standard of FAIR matchmaking, which is what we are discussing, is it not?

 

3 hours ago, Umikami said:

no, it adds up to "knowledgeable and skilled"

Again,  why are there no other "knowledgeable and skilled" players on the other side?

 

3 hours ago, Umikami said:

I'm willing to bet that you just broke into tier 5 matches, and that tier 5 matchmaking is kicking your butt, because it is VERY different from tier 4 MM.

 

You'd lose the bet.  

 

3 hours ago, Umikami said:

PLUS, you aren't knowledgeable enough concerning the metas and mechanics of the game to know HOW players with 80% win rates get them; trust me when I say they just don't log in and jump into any old random match.

So, SOME players can pick their opponents in random matches?  That would seem to be quite an advantage, indeed.  One that doesn't seem to be available to me and negates the claims of "FAIR and RANDOM",  which is what we are discussing.  So much for the, "FAIR and RANDOM" claim.

 

3 hours ago, Umikami said:

Yes, something isn't Kosher, and it's YOU; you just aren't that good.

If you truly feel that I, alone am responsible for the losses, perhaps I should retire from the game.  After all, it's not just a loss for me, but for all my teammates as well.  I certainly don't want to be a burden on the other players.

FAIR sailing, brother.

Edited by jurgens613
Added comment for clarification

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41 minutes ago, jurgens613 said:

Can players "game" the system

Of course players can "game" the system, happens all the time. One very common way is when a player gets into trouble with a couple of ships trailing him, he'll "ride the line" and hug the map edge which makes his speed and even direction anybody's guess. It's a screwed up part of the game players take advantage of, and hell yes there are others.

If all you want to do is whine, go ahead. If you want to get better, quit singing "OH WOE IS ME!" to everyone who will listen and invest some time and effort, study how things are done, and GIT GUD!

Or just go ahead and whine, lots of players do, it's not a solo song.

 

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41 minutes ago, jurgens613 said:

So, SOME players can pick their opponents in random matches? 

No, no one gets to pick their opponents; but players can CHOOSE when to play, and avoid times and days which are famous for the game being overloaded with inexperienced players. Weekends suck, holidays even worse, because every weekend warrior is out there charging ahead to an early doom. Most players who value their stats avoid the weekends like the plague.

44 minutes ago, jurgens613 said:

If you truly feel that I, alone am responsible for the losses, perhaps I should retire from the game.  After all, it's not just a loss for me, but for all my teammates as well.  I certainly don't want to be a burden on the other players.

Well, that's an Oscar winning performance in the category of "What a Martyr He is!"; but realistically you should just get down off the cross because someone needs the wood. But you definitely contribute to a win or loss in every game you're in, and GOOD players have been known to "carry" their teams to victory solo. Improve YOUR skills and quit worrying about what everyone else is doing.

49 minutes ago, jurgens613 said:

I don't believe in any of those things, but I do believe in math, probabilities and statistical analysis having spent much of my life as an engineer.

How inflated is your EGO that you think WoW picked YOU, and YOU ALONE, to hose over? Are you this games ONLY player who EVER gets unfriendly matchmaking? What, are you the Grand High Pooh-Butt of Rudy-Pooh or something? GET OVER YOURSELF. 

52 minutes ago, jurgens613 said:

Again,  why are there no other "knowledgeable and skilled" players on the other side?

There are, you're just too busy crying into your Kool-Aid to notice.

53 minutes ago, jurgens613 said:

That would seem to be quite an advantage, indeed.  One that doesn't seem to be available to me and negates the claims of "FAIR and RANDOM",  which is what we are discussing.  So much for the, "FAIR and RANDOM" claim.

Paranoia, a train ride for the mentally unstable.

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57 minutes ago, jurgens613 said:

You'd lose the bet. 

And no, I wouldn't lose that bet. You have a handful of tier 7's, and play only 1 on a regular basis, Colorado, so your most recent matches HAVE been ones where you are adjusting to the post tier 5 matchmaking, which often places you at the bottom tier. You've got 91 games in Colorado, and your next most played tier 7 ship is the Duck of York, a heavily nerfed KGV, and you have only 25 games in it, probably after you won it.

You need to play more, study more, and complain less. And get used to NOT being top tier, at least until you unlock and procure a tier 10 ship.

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16 minutes ago, Umikami said:

If all you want to do is whine, go ahead. If you want to get better, quit singing "OH WOE IS ME!"

 

No "whining" here, just pointing out what would be obvious to any mathematician.

 

20 minutes ago, Umikami said:

when a player gets into trouble with a couple of ships trailing him, he'll "ride the line" and hug the map edge which makes his speed and even direction anybody's guess.

That's not "gaming the system".  Anyone can do that.  Anything that is available to all players is inherently fair.

By the way, it's not very effective as it slows you down and makes maneuvering sluggish. One shot from a single turret to get the range and it's a quick and easy kill. 

 

Again, happy sailing brother.

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21 minutes ago, Umikami said:

There are, you're just too busy crying into your Kool-Aid to notice.

 

21 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Paranoia, a train ride for the mentally unstable.

Et alia.  I won't quote the rest, as they are in your post, above.

 

Ok, I see you are only interested in ad hominems and have no real wish to engage in rational discussion.

I leave you to it then.  Have fun,

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just wish i could catch a break with the MM. too many matches im (-2) and in the top 3 on my team. makes it very frustrating to play. cant blame people for leaving when the odds seem so stacked against them.

but how does WG fix it without screwing the entire system completely?

thats the REAL issue.

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I will say this,  if I'm badly uptiered, the other side also has someone in the same boat. It's basically a tier 7 game with 9 and a half ships on each side. I can't speak to putting a New York against an Iron Duke etc, but yeah when one side has an extra cruiser and the other side has an extra DD, it's GG. I say nerf torps, but I guess y'all are happy with 1 shot deletes. From stealth every 45 seconds. If I knew DD's were so OP 3 days ago, I'd have went that way instead of BB. QQ

Edit: typos.

Edited by 44_percenter
autocorrect fail

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The game play  itself gets worse  every day, once youre in a bad team it looks like it never ends game after game! Theres no fun anymore.Teamplay is totaly gone.I play this game for about 3 years now and see it changing in a negative way.

I think a lott of players from "the first hour" run away to play other games,its a shame because its a beautiful game by itself. 

Steam players destroy this game!!!!
 

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Hey

As it relates to the MM issue.  I think the best would be the following:  T1/2/3, T4/5/6, T7/8, T9/10.  It would be the most compatible groups and the most reasonable for all play types.  Just my 2 cents.  As for balance of radar ships, etc. on a given side.....deal with it, shoot them first.

 

Pete

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On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 11:16 AM, sasquatch_research said:

As it relates to the MM issue.  I think the best would be the following:  T1/2/3, T4/5/6, T7/8, T9/10.  It would be the most compatible groups and the most reasonable for all play types.  Just my 2 cents.  As for balance of radar ships, etc. on a given side.....deal with it, shoot them first.

Tier one doesn't get up tiered (that or I have been very lucky not to be up tiered), and I'm happy they don't. Don't need new players, just learning the ropes, to be met with advance gameplay too early.

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9 hours ago, Counter_Gambit said:

Tier one doesn't get up tiered (that or I have been very lucky not to be up tiered), and I'm happy they don't. Don't need new players, just learning the ropes, to be met with advance gameplay too early.

Hey

But you still have advanced players that will occasionally take out lower tier ships for some fun "seal clubbing".  Nothing can be done about that other than to block players of certain ranks being allowed to play at lower tiers, which I don't think would go over very well.  With around 14-15K people playing on the NA server at times, it's going to happen.

 

Pete

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3 hours ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

But you still have advanced players that will occasionally take out lower tier ships for some fun "seal clubbing".  Nothing can be done about that other than to block players of certain ranks being allowed to play at lower tiers, which I don't think would go over very well.  With around 14-15K people playing on the NA server at times, it's going to happen.

 

Pete

When I go down for "seal clubbing" it is usually at tier 3 where I can use my Vampire, Campbelltown, and King Albert.  I am usually up tiered and playing against tier 4s though.  Tier 1 and 2 aren't worth my time as the rewards are minimal

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On 12/19/2017 at 7:15 PM, Wulfgarn said:

I'm all for +1/-1

The game has progressed since Vanilla, you'd think the current +2 / -2 has become outdated, just like when they apparently changed the format when the game first started and the tier, MM had very little limit.

With some many different ships available now, the time has come to make the line-ups more balanced.

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