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Clan Battles Feedback

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The first season of Clan Battles (CB) was great in many ways, lots of teams participated, people got to play with other people they know and trust, some of the best battles I have fought happened in CB. There were a lot of things that went right, tier 10 was amazing, no CV opened a lot of tactical doors for tactics that wouldnt have worked with a CV, 7v7 was a good size for including clans, Rental ships was a great effort from WG to be as inclusive as possible and the queue was short the entire season even when we were nearing the top of Typhoon 1 so if felt like teams were keeping involved up to the last day of the event. However there are a few things that could possibly be improved on and I spent some time with leaders of several of the top Typhoon 1 clans getting feedback on various ideas we had. I ended up with the list below of potential suggestions for WG to consider in the future. 

The first set of changes I am suggesting is primarily are aimed at increasing the potential tactical and strategic options available to teams by giving the team more choices for their lineups. The second change is aimed at reducing the available exploits available to teams that do not feel obligated to be good sports.

Change Lineup Rules

  1. Remove tier limits

There is no reason that teams have to pick only from tier 10. This is a change that carried over from ranked and I mostly agree with it in ranked because I do not get to choose my teammates there but in CB we all have to ready up to go into a battle and there are ships at lower tiers that provide some additional tactical options and a team might want to use them.

  1. Replace the current class limits with a new system
    1. Remove Class Limits
    2. Add point value to each class of ships that increases with tier
    3. Add a max amount of points that a team can use to pick their lineup.

I got this idea from an old competitive league I used to play in from another game. Basically there is a maximum amount of points (tonnage is what I am calling it) a team can be worth and each ship has some amount of points (tonnage) depending on how powerful it is. So there is no hard limits on amount of a specific class or tier, but more powerful ships are worth more points (tonnage) and so there is a limit to how many of the most powerful ships that can be on a team. Currently there are some classes (CV and BB) that are so powerful for teams that teams will always max out their allowed amount of those classes, the point values are used to increase the cost of these particular ships or any other meta friendly ship that gets used a lot so that there are choices to be made on lineups. The point is not to make CVs so expensive that they are never played but instead make CVs expensive enough that a team with a CV has significant weaknesses that teams without CVs can exploit. 

 For example no specific ban on bringing a Midway, but since it is such a powerful ship it uses so many points from the budget the team will have to bring a significantly weaker surface lineup to stay in budget. By significantly I mean a similar cost to several tier 10 surface ships. Teams could also choose to run several battleships but would have to sacrifice points somewhere else because BBs would be worth more than CAs or DDs. Points could be sacrificed by bringing less ships, by bringing classes worth less points, by bringing lower tier ships, or by some combination. This could also eliminate some of the monotony of high level battles where people mostly play to the meta because WG could adjust the point value of popular ships so people are encouraged bring other ships.

This is supposed to in theory balance the value of ships so that there are meaningful choices. Currently CVs are so powerful and useful that there is no choice other than to bring one if a CV is allowed. CVs not only have a huge damage potential at tier 10 they also have an unmatched ability to spot across the map and significantly reduce the tactical options of teams. The spotting especially is a huge advantage for any caller removing unknowns and giving teams much more warning of non meta tactics. This does not add to the choices teams have but actually removes them and makes DDs even less useful than in CA games.

BBs also exist in a similar state to CVs but not to nearly the same extent, teams will max out their BB numbers which is why I dont think simply allowing more BBs per team adds to the choice, only by making significant tradeoffs to get these ships were enough other ships are available instead is any kind of choice available.

Again the point is to increase the number of choices a team has, not simply change the meta to a different set of required ships. I would consider the system working appropriately if some teams at the highest levels have CVs and others didnt and those teams were able to compete with each other. Just like right now we have some teams with DDs and some teams without in Typhoon 1 and teams with both lineups were successful. 

Restrict clan changes

  1. Reduce the ability of teams to abuse other teams through alternate teams (through one or more of the following rules)
    1. Add a cooldown period of at least 1 week for when a player who has participated in a CB can participate with a different clan.
    2. Require a team to retain at least 75% of its participating members for the duration of a campaign.
    3. Allow only one clan transfer per season
    4. Individuals cannot return to original team for the duration of the season if they leave.

The biggest issues with this system is that it makes CB more complex and relies on WG to appropriately balance ships. Leaving a ships on a slightly incorrect value could be the difference between seeing it on a regular basis and seeing very little of it. These can both be overcome with testing and appropriate documentation and I think it would be worth it in the long run because clans can use more of their members potentially with less people flatly banned from participating and hopefully without forcing a particular ship or class upon every single team.

Please add at least one of these rules, I would prefer a combination of 1 and either 3 or 4. There is no reason for teams to be moving between clans and it gives teams ways to undermine the system that could easily simply not be a problem. This particular issue was what I got the most feedback on, people were mostly positive about a point based lineup and there was some disagreement about allowing CVs in some way or multiple BBs. But on this particular subject everyone agreed that additional restrictions needed to exist.

 

TL;DR: 2 things, first remove class restrictions but add some additional cost to running particularly strong ships so that using them is a choice not a necessity, second dont just let people change clans how ever they want during the season, it leaves to many options for shady behavior.

 

@SuperNikoPower I collected feedback from a couple Typhoon 1 clans when creating this, hopefully WG has plans to get feedback from participating clans. This first season seemed really successful and everybody seemed really positive about Clan Battles in general. 

 

Thanks to the people that made time to discuss the ideas with me, the discussions helped me mature the ideas and gave me additional ideas that I had not considered. 

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I really like both ideas.

The first could add a lot of variety to the game without necessitating a complete CV rework. The "budgeting" of ship resources is particularly brilliant. Have a best-in-NA CV player to carry your team? Take a Midway/Hak at the cost of a mediocre main fleet. Want aerial scouting, but don't want to spend the points? Take a Saipan and spend the rest on your top-of-the-line T10 ships. 

The second idea would really improve the integrity of CB as a whole. 

 

1fe.gif

 

Edited by Kombat_W0MBAT

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That first idea could be an interesting twist. I agree wholeheartedly with the 2nd, there can be no possible way to protect the main clan while you eliminate competition through way of "smurf" clans. I sincerely hope WG takes appropriate actions for the future!

 

Great write-up, Zim!

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We really appreciate you putting this together, the team is definitely watching feedback now that things are over and will be discussing tweaks in the near future.

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They need to adjust the time window too. We had a large number of people in out clan who couldn't participate because of the current window. They should look at everything from different window lengths to different times of day and even days that clan battles are available.

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29 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

I collected feedback from a couple Typhoon 1 clans when creating this

what about clans from other leagues and even non participating clans. Changes need to get the wider playerbase on board, to be seen to benefit all, rather than give the impression of benefiting a few. (even if your proposals are welcome)

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Just now, nuttybiscuit said:

what about clans from other leagues and even non participating clans. Changes need to get the wider playerbase on board, to be seen to benefit all, rather than give the impression of benefitting a few. (even if your proposals are welcome)

I want to have many opinions from every level included in improving the game, however I have a job and limited amounts of time to spend even on things I am passionate about. Besides that I dont have a way to reach the majority of clans without hunting forum profiles or discords. So I reached out to people I know how to contact and whose opinions I respect. WG has the information needed to reach everyone that participated which is why I included this at the end:

31 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

 I collected feedback from a couple Typhoon 1 clans when creating this, hopefully WG has plans to get feedback from participating clans. This first season seemed really successful and everybody seemed really positive about Clan Battles in general. 

 

 

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I want to make a feedback thread about all the underhanded, "cheaty" things that could have happened under the current rules for CWs. Things that, to the best of my knowledge didn't really take place but could have been abused under the current system. Things that I would like changed to avoid some of that and how I would change about them. Like the implementation of CWs play restrictions to transferring players as you suggested..

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40 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

 

This is a really nice idea, I like it.

upvote.gif.bcd418c7483c5ec832fc1a570fb71

Now if only Wargaming would make the Prime Time more convenient so that my Clan could actually join. Or make it like in WoT and allow 1 or 2 legionaries/mercenaries to fill up a short roster. What do you think @SuperNikoPower @Pigeon_of_War @Sub_Octavian. You have any extra opinions on that idea @1nv4d3rZ1m?

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Besides bragging rights does the top clan in Typhoon get anything more or better than the bottom team that made Typhoon?

Also, I haven't really seen it addressed, if there is/was a "meta" to this seasons clan battles, how would it be described? Seems like almost all feedback from it is positive, just curious to find out what I and many of us may have missed.

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I have some Clan Battle feed back and it will be short. I didn't get to play any. 

Half the time I could not be in port for CBs because real life getting in the way. When I was able to be in port of CB either my clan had a full team or no one showed up cause they already had their flag. So this season of Clan Battles was a totally Bust. 

But there was one unpleasant aspect of being in a clan that was in the Typhoon League. It was getting focused by other clans while playing random battles. I was insulted by players from both sides. Suffered team damage. One match I had a T10 CV, who's can was in Typhoon League, fly over the map ignoring weaker targets only to focus my Des Monies and sink it. Now I've been focused before either because of the ship I'm in or because I have good stats. But this time the CV player made it clear I was dead because I belonged to a **** clan. Guess my clan had beaten his a few times and was still salty. 

So I left that clan, dropped the tag and all the heat, focus and insults dropped by 90%. Once again I could play any tier or kind of ship and have fun without getting focused because of my clan tag. I didn't get to play any CB but still felt the toxic hate. Heck never had this happened because of Ranked.  

I thought I could keep this short, but it seems there was a build up of frustration because of this, I'm sorry for ranting. 

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Just now, Sweetsie said:

Besides bragging rights does the top clan in Typhoon get anything more or better than the bottom team that made Typhoon?

Also, I haven't really seen it addressed, if there is/was a "meta" to this seasons clan battles, how would it be described? Seems like almost all feedback from it is positive, just curious to find out what I and many of us may have missed.

WG announced some reward for the top clan, dont remember the exact reward but Im sure someone will be linking it soon. 

The Meta was Hindis mostly, they made the majority of each team and were the main DPM. Moskvas was in early but a lot of teams switched to DM by the end of the season. Montana was a staple as was Gearing for most teams although there were Yamatos in several of the top teams at the end. 

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7 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

WG announced some reward for the top clan, dont remember the exact reward but Im sure someone will be linking it soon. 

The Meta was Hindis mostly, they made the majority of each team and were the main DPM. Moskvas was in early but a lot of teams switched to DM by the end of the season. Montana was a staple as was Gearing for most teams although there were Yamatos in several of the top teams at the end. 

Interesting, guessing the Moskva was to detectable & fragile? Hindi's I could see easily. Gearing I assume for the smoke. When they announced clan wars, I really thought that Mino's could be all over...but I guess with smoke changes that really takes them out of play.

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16 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

WG announced some reward for the top clan, dont remember the exact reward but Im sure someone will be linking it soon.

I think it was to be the Stalingrad-class battlecruiser. Top Clan got a special loading screen.

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/common/yes-we-clan/#reward - Look just below the missions, just above the divisions section.

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My biggest problem was not getting a chance to play due it not starting until 8 pm eastern time 7 would have been better.

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5 minutes ago, Fog_Repair_Ship_Akashi said:

I think it was to be the Stalingrad-class battlecruiser. Top Clan got a special loading screen.

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/common/yes-we-clan/#reward - Look just below the missions, just above the divisions section.

"Earn three flags in future Seasons to earn the tier X cruiser Stalingrad!"

so no free premium cruiser for this season.

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Just now, nuttybiscuit said:

"Earn three flags in future Seasons to earn the tier X cruiser Stalingrad!"

so no free premium cruiser for this season.

Yah i know, I was just pointing out that there were plans just not ready yet.

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I did not care for clan battles mostly due to the use of tier 10's and would have had to use a rental without any camo. Putting players in unfamiliar ships and then giving them another disadvantage just was too much. Played one match to farm the signal flags and was done with it. Glad it is in the game for those who like it, I doubt I will bother messing with it again. I would like an option to opt out of all the clan related missions and messages as I find that quite annoying. I probably would have enjoyed a lower tier battle but since there are fewer tier 10 players and Wargaming has to drop tier 8's into battle so they can manage a match, it is probably good that there is somewhere they can play to leave the rest of us alone. My overall impression was "meh, don't care". 

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My two cents Bottom of the heap Clans. Our clan had FUN. We played when we could get together enough members at the Odd times and days CB were assigned.

I would like the CB schedule to be open wider and longer. 4 days and 3 hours each just didn't cut it.

Our Clan like most, have members from all over the US and Canada. Of the 30 members in our Clan 14 were available on 2 of the days and barely 3. It seems the times allotted for CB was either to early {work constraints & dinners, or to late bedtimes due to early work schedules.{ Not everyone in the world have the ability to work a 9 to 5 } I was disappointed that many of our clan could not participate due to Life commitments. Maybe next season the Clan Battles will have 24/7 available times like the game has

To address the Clan Hopping {"Cheat"}..... Clans Should be locked at the beginning of the season ,{No removal by the Clan leadership.} Any member who voluntarily leave the clan after playing 1 clan battle is  locked out of Clan Battles for the season. {If a member who has not played in a Clan Battle can enter another clan as a full participant}

To address the Loaner Ships "Bravo" this one  thing allowed many players to experience team play the way it was meant to be. A good reason for the WG staff to push Game Client to include the Training room.

 

  

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As a CV player i think cvs need be on CV and they need incrise the number of players to 10... or in lower tiers (7~8)

CVs are fun but its a ... complicade balance for TX with only 7 players in battle.

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I like those ideas except removing class limits. The game is no where near balanced enough for that.  I would also say the following need to be done:

1. Extend the current time Window by 1 hour.
2. Replace Stalingrad reward with Salem. A completely unique ship should not be the reward for gated content. Other games were learning this 10 or more years ago.
3. Allow Clan leadership to make a flag that is displayed on all member ships in any kind of match
4. All clan members get rewards (mission progression) for the wins of any team their clan fields for CB. Rank and league is rewarded/deducted clan wide for one team, why isn't the progression also applied?

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Seven is a good number for clan battles.  We had a hard time fielding a team with 7.  Any more and it would have been difficult, even though we have lots of guys.

I like the early suggestions of opening up all the tiers.  If someone wants to bring a T5 to a clan battle, let them.  Its not random battles where you are randomly assigned a player.  Here your team gets to chose to enter a battle with the assigned players and whatever ships they bring.  I'm not so sure on the ship point system.  In theory it works, but the point assignment of the ships has to be bang on or you will get a predetermined ship arrangement because the point system favors it. 

I can see having CV's but they are such a dominant force in games where low numbers of ships start off.  Having no CV's was a nice breath of fresh air.  If an accurate point system was implemented, it might be viable.

Clan hopping should be addressed.  I don't think a complete stoppage is needed.  There will be times when players just want to change clans, or clans that just want to get rid of a player.  To solve the clan swapping problem, just implement a timeout between clans.  If a player leaves a clan, he cannot join a 2nd clan within 24hrs.  If they leave that clan with less than 7 days of being a member, then the timeout moves to 48 hours.  Each change of clans with less than 7 days in that clan increases the timeout by 24hrs.  Presto.  Problem solved.  No one will be jumping clans for a couple of games and then hopping back.  It would take a 3 day turnaround just to get back to your original clan.  If you did it again within 7 days, it could take a full 7 days to get back to your original clan.  

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32 minutes ago, zarth12 said:

I like those ideas except removing class limits. The game is no where near balanced enough for that.  I would also say the following need to be done:

1. Extend the current time Window by 1 hour.
2. Replace Stalingrad reward with Salem. A completely unique ship should not be the reward for gated content. Other games were learning this 10 or more years ago.
3. Allow Clan leadership to make a flag that is displayed on all member ships in any kind of match
4. All clan members get rewards (mission progression) for the wins of any team their clan fields for CB. Rank and league is rewarded/deducted clan wide for one team, why isn't the progression also applied?

Apparently you didnt read my idea for replacing class limits, oh well typing is its own reward I guess...

Did WG say that the Stalingrad would not be available any other way? I must have missed that part. 

 

15 minutes ago, Murcc said:

Seven is a good number for clan battles.  We had a hard time fielding a team with 7.  Any more and it would have been difficult, even though we have lots of guys.

I like the early suggestions of opening up all the tiers.  If someone wants to bring a T5 to a clan battle, let them.  Its not random battles where you are randomly assigned a player.  Here your team gets to chose to enter a battle with the assigned players and whatever ships they bring.  I'm not so sure on the ship point system.  In theory it works, but the point assignment of the ships has to be bang on or you will get a predetermined ship arrangement because the point system favors it. 

I can see having CV's but they are such a dominant force in games where low numbers of ships start off.  Having no CV's was a nice breath of fresh air.  If an accurate point system was implemented, it might be viable.

Clan hopping should be addressed.  I don't think a complete stoppage is needed.  There will be times when players just want to change clans, or clans that just want to get rid of a player.  To solve the clan swapping problem, just implement a timeout between clans.  If a player leaves a clan, he cannot join a 2nd clan within 24hrs.  If they leave that clan with less than 7 days of being a member, then the timeout moves to 48 hours.  Each change of clans with less than 7 days in that clan increases the timeout by 24hrs.  Presto.  Problem solved.  No one will be jumping clans for a couple of games and then hopping back.  It would take a 3 day turnaround just to get back to your original clan.  If you did it again within 7 days, it could take a full 7 days to get back to your original clan.  

I did suggest some different options for dealing with clan hopping, your idea is very similar to my first suggestion. 

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2 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

Apparently you didnt read my idea for replacing class limits, oh well typing is its own reward I guess...

Did WG say that the Stalingrad would not be available any other way? I must have missed that part. 

 

I did suggest some different options for dealing with clan hopping, your idea is very similar to my first suggestion. 

Feel free to enlighten me exactly how me not agreeing with one of your ideas equates to not reading the suggestion.
Also name a single Ship reward thus far that has been available in another way.

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As a destroyer player, I'd selfishly like to see destroyers be more viable in clan battles.  If you subscribe to the Rock-Paper-Scissors = Battleship-Destroyer-Cruiser analogy, capping Rocks at one per battle caused Scissors to flourish and Paper to suffer.  I wonder how the meta would look if 2 out of 7 ships could be battleships. 

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