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Cheating in Clan Wars hurts fairplayers, winners and losers

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Clan Wars only.

When is a cheat not a cheat cheating?

loopholes in woefully slack rules.

lack of oversight, refereeing and supervision.

how does cheating hurt/benefit you?

discuss.

(please avoid naming and shaming, keep discussion in the hypothetical)

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issues that have arisen in this thread so far :

avoidance vs evasion (of rules)

mega clans

minor "indy" clans that declined to participate in CB (reasons..)

inter clan tensions

good intentions > bad results (helping -sub-clan members obtain rewards, inadvertently affecting experience for other clans?)

desire for feedback/assurance that WG is on the case to improve CW

extreme sensitivity of topic / difficulty of discussion.

WG is evil so cheating is acceptable argued by a few

http://149.56.132.140/ClanWars/ (thanks to @JetF0x)

danger that a perception of abuses that hurt the overall population, while benefiting a select few, is able to flourish. (to paraquote @Ogre_Mk_V)

 @zarth12 asks if it wouldn't be better to ensure that when a 7 player team earns a reward, all members of that clan earn it automatically too (such as the Stalingrad flag)

trash talk and demeaning behaviour by some opponents discussed by @Sere_Pj

what issues? to paraphrase/summarize the position of
@aether_tech or @Jochen_Heiden

What matters is who we know truly, rightfully, and fairly won, says @ROY4LP4IN (but do we?)

A heartening view expressed by @generaldort that dishonesty will never thrive in this game

From a separate but highly informative thread that may dispell much confusion by @Kevik70

@Hotel_a_QT is concerned that well meaning mega clans (several WOWS clans sharing one owner/management structure) will be unfairly accused of "intentionally making new clans with the sole purpose of gaming the system and abusing how the MM and points work"

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My wife cheated on me, I thought it hurt me, turns out it was the best thing ever.

Heck, in every group of humanity there will always be rule breakers and cheaters. In the Bible the first four of all time...One ate the forbidden fruit and one kid killed his brother. That's batting 50% on the first 4. To expect it to not happen in groups of 30 or hundreds or thousands is ludicrous. 

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Why don't you give out specific examples of how clans are "cheating"?  

Stop being vague.

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Here is how a vast majority of things work.

  1. Rules for task are implemented
  2. Someone clever figures out some loopholes and exploits it
  3. Rule maker closes loopholes
  4. Someone cleverer figures out still existing loopholes and exploits it
  5. Rule maker closes new loopholes

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4 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Here is how a vast majority of things work.

  1. Rules for task are implemented
  2. Someone clever figures out some loopholes and exploits it
  3. Rule maker closes loopholes
  4. Someone cleverer figures out still existing loopholes and exploits it
  5. Rule maker closes new loopholes

i.e. tax laws

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13 minutes ago, Sock5 said:

Why don't you give out specific examples of how clans are "cheating"?  

Stop being vague.

Because naming and shaming would see this topic shut down, which would be self defeating and prevent a constructive discussion of how unsporting behaviour in Clan Wars pilot season may have hurt/benefited you. On the other hand, if you have abstract and/or hypothetical examples, please share.

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6 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Here is how a vast majority of things work.

  1. Rules for task are implemented
  2. Someone clever figures out some loopholes and exploits it
  3. Rule maker closes loopholes
  4. Someone cleverer figures out still existing loopholes and exploits it
  5. Rule maker closes new loopholes

If you have played games for any length of time this is always true. Any time I've been on a "bleeding edge" clan at the apex of skill in any game there have always been "little tricks" that help keep good players good because they are the ones skilled enough to use them. 

Most often though, by the time the trick/technique/whatever has permeated out of the elite level it's all over but the patching. Many people spend lots of time trying to find what equates to work arounds at times and it certainly helps keep the guds, gud.

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2 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

I predict this will get locked no matter what. :cap_popcorn:

that all depends on how people respond to the topic, sensibly or not.

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16 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Because naming and shaming would see this topic shut down, which would be self defeating and prevent a constructive discussion of how unsporting behaviour in Clan Wars pilot season may have hurt/benefited you. On the other hand, if you have abstract and/or hypothetical examples, please share.

How can you have a "constructive discussion" about what is going to be little more than a compendium of evidence-free allegations, complaints, and accusations? Nothing constructive can come out of this thread. I hope the mods kill it. 

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9 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

Because naming and shaming would see this topic shut down, which would be self defeating and prevent a constructive discussion of how unsporting behaviour in Clan Wars pilot season may have hurt/benefited you. On the other hand, if you have abstract and/or hypothetical examples, please share.

You can answer the question without giving names.  

Clan X does this.  Player BB does this.  

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I would say that the perception of playing fast and loose with the rules hurts the overall population, while benefiting a select few.

The lower ranks all perceive there to be problems (and recent events seem to support that perception). So, what's the point? How can a clan that can sometimes field 7 players for a couple of games compete with a clan that can field 3 teams of 7 every night and do so for multiple sub clans? 

The fact that there are clans with sub-clans is problematic in and of itself, with the possibility of throwing matches to get one part of the clan to Typhoon and then rotating members in and out to get them all the Typhoon prizes. 

I love the format of clan battles. I even learned to enjoy the Sea of Fortune map. 

But I don't like the format of clans and clan wars. I think, regardless of quality of players, the format lends itself to borderline unfair and unethical practices and will die a quiet death if rather significant changes aren't made. 

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I'm assuming this has to do with how people can bounce between sub-clans without losing their ranking or something like that? I've also heard something about some clans pulling their network cords to throw matches, but I don't know the details of how that would work in their favor. 

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Just more fuel to the fire as to why they SHOULDN'T make the CB reward a unique ship.

I mean it is not a new thing.... games learned quite some time ago that there are like golden rules you simply don't break anymore if you want to be successful:
1.) Don't add items for $ that give a statistical advantage (See P2W)
2.) Don't add gated rewards that are not mostly cosmetic (EX: Stalingrad)

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15 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

How can you have a "constructive discussion" about what is going to be little more than a compendium of evidence-free allegations, complaints, and accusations? Nothing constructive can come out of this thread. I hope the mods kill it. 

then keep out of this topic, if you have nothing helpful to say. Thankyou.

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9 minutes ago, zarth12 said:

Just more fuel to the fire as to why they SHOULDN'T make the CB reward a unique ship.

I mean it is not a new thing.... games learned quite some time ago that there are like golden rules you simply don't break anymore if you want to be successful:
1.) Don't add items for $ that give a statistical advantage (See P2W)
2.) Don't add gated rewards that are not mostly cosmetic (EX: Stalingrad)

This. 

I don't care who's number 1 of the whole league. I know it's not going to be me. Ever. And I'm OK with that.

What is very frustrating is the fact that there are things in game that I can never do because of that. 

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14 minutes ago, TTK_Aegis said:

I'm assuming this has to do with how people can bounce between sub-clans without losing their ranking or something like that? I've also heard something about some clans pulling their network cords to throw matches, but I don't know the details of how that would work in their favor. 

A clan in a top league that loses versus a crappy clan filled with unicum players from a lower league loses more points than if it lost vs a clan from the league. Clan transfers between sub clans and the "main" clan of a syndicate/mega clan offer opportunities.

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7 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

A clan in a top league that loses versus a crappy clan filled with unicum players from a lower league loses more points than if it lost vs a clan from the league. Clan transfers between sub clans and the "main" clan of a syndicate/mega clan offer opportunities.

Ahhh so they transfer to a lower ranked clan, then tear up the ladder doing inordinately large damage to the ranking of everyone in their way because the clan they're in isn't ranked to reflect the skill of the players involved. Basically they can assassinate a rival clan at the top's ranking by taking them out with a clan that's the minimum rank needed to face them. Devious.  

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I'm just glad I have a Stalingrad flag, a bunch of free xp, barrels of oil for my clan, a LOT more experience in Hindenberg, Henri IV, and Gearing, and an ocean's worth of tenticular clan mates to share the experience with.

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Just now, Lord_Zath said:

I'm just glad I have a Stalingrad flag, a bunch of free xp, barrels of oil for my clan, a LOT more experience in Hindenberg, Henri IV, and Gearing, and an ocean's worth of tenticular clan mates to share the experience with.

I too, am happy with what I have personally gained from Clan Wars, but unhappy that my gains and losses might have been enabled, directly or indirectly, by abusive practices of others. This reduces the worth of my own sense of (relative) achievement.

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16 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

then keep out of this topic, if you have nothing helpful to say. Thankyou.

Recommending to the mods that it be shut down is helpful, because I am hoping the mods see it. Also, I am hoping the one constructive thing that you learn here is how silly topics like this are: "Please accuse the player base of doing bad things! And make it constructive!"

There are already so many acrimonious topics here, and this one is totally unnecessary. 

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1 minute ago, Taichunger said:

There are already so many acrimonious topics here, and this one is totally unnecessary. 

then why are you being acrimonious? Something to hide?

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34 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

How can you have a "constructive discussion" about what is going to be little more than a compendium of evidence-free allegations, complaints, and accusations? Nothing constructive can come out of this thread. I hope the mods kill it. 

From Black Desert Online: my wife got a lifetime ban without a chance that it will ever be overturned for something she didn’t have done and they don’t want to present any proof. Presenting proof that she didn’t do it is ignored because they will not talk about this topic. Different games have different ways to enforce their rules....

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