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Ulthwey

1.8 Sigma AND 35 sec reload on Musashi ... oh, [edited]no!

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I was looking forward to this thing, but that dispersion coefficient is absolutely atrocious, especially at tier 9. Don't get me wrong, 18" guns facing tier 7s and 8s is going to hurt (at least theoretically) but if and ONLY if they can actually land a hit. 1.8 Sigma (with extended 35 second reload) basically turns this ship into a slow spray and pray. Ships with similar accuracy values are virtually ineffective at ranges greater than 15km, and it looks like Musashi will be no different, except it sits at tier 9 which is quite unforgiving. Mistakes at high tiers are punished immediately, but this ship likely will not be able to do that, since with 1.8 sigma it probably won't even hit a side of a barn.

It feels like WG is placing waaaaaaaay too much emphasis on shell size for the purposes of balancing this ship out. The 18" shell is good, but by itself is not enough to warrant such massive nerfs to the accuracy, reload and AA. In the current form, this ship fails all across the board (it cant brawl, it can't snipe, it can't maneuver, it can't kill aircraft, and etc). In fact I am pretty certain that in this form it will be bringing in pretty low damage numbers since even if the shells do a lot of damage, they simply wont be consistent in accuracy, and IJN ballistics aren't that great to begin with. We'll be seeing a lot of overpens, bounces and possibly even shatters.

Seems like this ship, in its current form, is a disappointment that's just waiting to happen. Certainly won't be worth 750k free xp. Give it normal Yami 2.1 accuracy coefficient, but give it 35 sec reload and nerf the hell out of rudder shift, torpedo protection and AA. At least this way it will be a good bow-on tank like an Iowa/Missouri but with significant universal IJN weaknesses.

 

P.S Just to put this in perspective, Musashi in the current form has sigma equal to that of Mikasa/Kawachi/Myogi/Kongo/New York AND a fairly big overall dispersion diameter ... yea its THAT bad.

Edited by Ulthwey
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If that's how it comes out, I will NOT waste 750k free xp on it. That kinda saddens me, I'd love to have both Yamato-class ships, and I'd love the 3rd in game in her massive glorious CV form, however, I'm not the kind who'll just blow all my free xp on a whim. I'm not too thrilled with Nelson, for some reason I can't adjust my playstyle to her, I feel like I wasted all that free xp. I'm not doing that again.

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She hasn't even made it to live server testing yet. Have patience, it is all still able to change.

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It's a Tier 10 ship at Tier 9, it was never going to be amazing compared to Yamato, and 1.8 is hardly bad.

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She needs a minimum of:

  • 30s reload - Already penalized by 72s traverse, which is sufficient. Furthermore; most people take the Traverse Buff Module, which makes even regular Yamato have around 32s reload (lowest in-tier if GK is not using the Traverse Module on the 420s; which most don't, instead using the RoF buff to bring it to 29~30s). Using the RoF module instead would make both Yamato and Musashi have a near 2 minute long traverse, which is virtually unplayable short of reverse bow-camping.
  • 2.0~2.1 Sigma - Same as above; already penalized by 72s traverse and low reload times, and spec'ing for either makes the other worse.
  • Currently Buffed ~18s Rudder Shift - She would still have the large 900m turning, so not much of an advantage there.

To be even worthwhile to purchase. Overmatch at T7 doesn't do anything different from what Yamato already does to T8s, so that's not even a real threat.

However, I wouldn't mind a 1.8 Sigma if they gave her Yamato's early CBT maneuverability (800m turning and around 15.5s rudder shift), or her CBT historical maneuverability (640m turning and 14.5~15.5s rudder shift). At least it would be useful to proactive players who attempt to evade attacks, and makes up for only having roughly T6 level AA and secondaries (T6.5 really). And she'd still be vulnerable by virtue of being the only battleship besides Yamato with a high citadel at that tier, so even proactive players would have to plan out their turning at the right time or eat a full citadel broadside.

We'll see how she turns out though; she hasn't yet gone into live testing, IIRC.

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And as a tier 9 it will  most likely face many teir 10 ships in battles. Rarely is a tier 9 "top tier" in any battle.

Edited by fbrrhd

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I keep seeing people talking about how Tier VII's will have to face it and what 460mm guns will do to a Tier VII BB.

How is it any different compared to what a 380mm gun will do to a Tier VII?  Sure, it hits a little bit harder, but literally every Tier VIII and Tier IX BB already overmatches the 25mm extremity armor of Tier VII BBs anyways.  The 460mm guns don't overmatch 25mm of armor any differently.

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6 minutes ago, YamatoA150 said:

She needs a minimum of:

  • 30s reload - Already penalized by 72s traverse, which is sufficient. Furthermore; most people take the Traverse Buff Module, which makes even regular Yamato have around 32s reload (lowest in-tier if GK is not using the Traverse Module on the 420s; which most don't, instead using the RoF buff to bring it to 29~30s). Using the RoF module instead would make both Yamato and Musashi have a near 2 minute long traverse, which is virtually unplayable short of reverse bow-camping.
  • 2.0~2.1 Sigma - Same as above; already penalized by 72s traverse and low reload times, and spec'ing for either makes the other worse.
  • Currently Buffed ~18s Rudder Shift - She would still have the large 900m turning, so not much of an advantage there.

To be even worthwhile to purchase. Overmatch at T7 doesn't do anything different from what Yamato already does to T8s, so that's not even a real threat.

However, I wouldn't mind a 1.8 Sigma if they gave her Yamato's early CBT maneuverability (800m turning and around 15.5s rudder shift), or her CBT historical maneuverability (640m turning and 14.5~15.5s rudder shift). At least it would be useful to proactive players who attempt to evade attacks, and makes up for only having roughly T6 level AA and secondaries (T6.5 really). And she'd still be vulnerable by virtue of being the only battleship besides Yamato with a high citadel at that tier, so even proactive players would have to plan out their turning at the right time or eat a full citadel broadside.

We'll see how she turns out though; she hasn't yet gone into live testing, IIRC.

Fuso AA is only slightly worse. Its AA capabilities are on par or worse than every other nations tier 6 BBs. I've said it a few times but I wont be touching a whale at tier 9 with that AA (~130DPS combined long/med). If they insist on going with the a launched hull they should allow players the upgrade the hull to its AA refit for an additional 250k free XP or something otherwise I see no reason to play it over Yamato.

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All this does is make it easier to keep saving my FXP. Maybe one day they offer a FXP cruiser that isn’t a shittier version of that nation's tier 10.

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1 minute ago, EmperorMaxwell said:

All this does is make it easier to keep saving my FXP. Maybe one day they offer a FXP cruiser that isn’t a shittier version of that nation's tier 10.

Lol, I blew mine on MO, now working on Nelson - then I'm done. 

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8 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

I keep seeing people talking about how Tier VII's will have to face it and what 460mm guns will do to a Tier VII BB.

How is it any different compared to what a 380mm gun will do to a Tier VII?  Sure, it hits a little bit harder, but literally every Tier VIII and Tier IX BB already overmatches the 25mm extremity armor of Tier VII BBs anyways.  The 460mm guns don't overmatch 25mm of armor any differently.

Not every penetration is the result of overmatch.  Musashi will have a greater chance of penning T7 belt/turret/internal citadel/etc. armor, at worse angles (short of autobounce) and greater range, than anything those ships currently face.

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Just now, Lillehuntrix said:

Not every penetration is the result of overmatch.  Musashi will have a greater chance of penning T7 belt/turret/internal citadel/etc. armor, at worse angles (short of autobounce) and greater range, than anything those ships currently face.

Slightly, very slightly, better chance.  It is not a significant change.

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37 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

It's a Tier 10 ship at Tier 9, it was never going to be amazing compared to Yamato, and 1.8 is hardly bad.

 

10 minutes ago, Big_Spud said:

1.8 sigma with Japanese dispersion values isn't even bad...

Guys, I don't think you realize just how atrocious this is. Izumo's sigma of 1.8 is well compensated by the fact that the turrets are all in ONE SINGLE location, so they are firing from one point on the ship. On top of that, Izumo has much better shell velocity (He and AP) AND overall dispersion. This is why its easier to land consistent hits with it.

Musashi ... well, its configuration of A-B-X automatically means most of the time your rear turret is going to be out of action during the battle (typically when bow-on). You are firing fewer shells at the enemy AND at a significantly increased penalty (reload, velocity and dispersion). The shells are slower, and dispersion is much worse for both HE and AP. So, where is the benefit of bringing Musashi over the Izumo? Tier 7s are overmatched by anything above 15", so having 18" shells is not really that much of an improvement. In fact, this is the one thing that truly hurts Musashi's cause - it prevents certain aspects of this ship from being buffed just for the simple reason that it has larger shell size.

Edited by Ulthwey
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9 minutes ago, WhiteRecon said:

Lol, I blew mine on MO, now working on Nelson - then I'm done. 

Considering how much I like my Iowa, I don’t see me spending mine on Mo. For me the Nelson is a fugly ship so I’m not a fan. More power to you if you decide to get both.

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Personally I am going to get Musashi because I got free xp to kill. I already have both Missouri and Nelson which are both fun ships. The only question I have is to put Isoroku Yamamoto as captain or wait until the second round of High School Fleet collaboration? Yes the Musashi is tricky to balance because of her configuration, Wargameing is doing their best. If the game was based on historical stats alone the game would be just World of Battleships and Carriers.

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Seeing the complaints here about the Musashi sig is hilarious. It just goes to show how rampant the BB coddling by Wargaming has been, and how chaotic the balance is atm. 
Complaining about 1.8 Sigma, which isn't even bad in the least, especially for BBs whos accuracy is very heavily bloated over what it should be. Consider 1.8 very generous, because far less should be the average for BBs

 

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You're using sigma as one of your main points here, and sigma is an iffy subject, at best. Sigma and what it does is barely understood; consider your own argument here.

You said the Mikasa/Kawachi/Myogi/Kongo/New York all have 1.8 sigma, which is correct. 

 

You also failed to mention how most tier VIII BB's have a 1.8 sigma, and none of them are considered to be overly inaccurate.

 

I can agree with a 35 second reload being quite horrendous though. Best to just wait and see how it performs once the CCs get her.

 

 

 

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Good post Ulthwey, I think having some WIP input could be very valuable to their efforts to make the ship competitive at high tiers. Really hoping this ship turns out interesting and unique.

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Several people in this thread seem to be assuming it's intended as a free xp ship, but WG has never confirmed that, right?  They might just be intending to sell it in conjunction with their High School Fleet collaboration or use it as a future reward ship.

 

I also agree with the statement above that players put an awful lot of weight on the sigma value given that we don't even know the shell distribution formula that it is plugged into.  Before the last a patch a bunch of people were even saying that the changes to Colorado were bad because increasing the ship's hitpoints by 18% wasn't worth dropping the sigma by 0.1.  I don't think the sigma stat has the gigantic effect on accuracy that many players claim it does.

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8 minutes ago, Vaidency said:

Several people in this thread seem to be assuming it's intended as a free xp ship, but WG has never confirmed that, right?  They might just be intending to sell it in conjunction with their High School Fleet collaboration or use it as a future reward ship.

 

I also agree with the statement above that players put an awful lot of weight on the sigma value given that we don't even know the shell distribution formula that it is plugged into.  Before the last a patch a bunch of people were even saying that the changes to Colorado were bad because increasing the ship's hitpoints by 18% wasn't worth dropping the sigma by 0.1.  I don't think the sigma stat has the gigantic effect on accuracy that many players claim it does.

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1 hour ago, Madwolf05 said:

It's a Tier 10 ship at Tier 9, it was never going to be amazing compared to Yamato, and 1.8 is hardly bad.

I'm considering getting her because of a high tier Myogi feel. If she keeps her range, tds, secondaries and armor scheme with maybe small nerfs for tier balance. She'll be fun. 

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1 hour ago, Ulthwey said:

 

Guys, I don't think you realize just how atrocious this is. Izumo's sigma of 1.8 is well compensated by the fact that the turrets are all in ONE SINGLE location, so they are firing from one point on the ship. On top of that, Izumo has much better shell velocity (He and AP) AND overall dispersion. This is why its easier to land consistent hits with it.

Amagi has spread out turrets, and 1.8 sigma. As far as dispersion, at 20km, Yamato's dispersion is slightly less than Amagi. Shell velocities are very similar.

Nobody complains about Amagi's guns.....

Iowa has worse dispersion than Musashi, and 1.8 sigma.

Yamato might need 2.1 sigma to hit things at over 30km, but at 20, shouldn't be a problem.

Obviously, if you like shooting at or near max range, you won't like Musashi.

It's true that 18" shells aren't going to be any more of an issue for T7s than 15-16" ones, but guns with the same dispersion at 26.5km that an Iowa has at 23.5km, AND 2.1 sigma, compared to Iowa's 1.8?

No need to be reinforcing camping at lower tiers than it's done at already.

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1 hour ago, zarth12 said:

Seeing the complaints here about the Musashi sig is hilarious. It just goes to show how rampant the BB coddling by Wargaming has been, and how chaotic the balance is atm. 
Complaining about 1.8 Sigma, which isn't even bad in the least, especially for BBs whos accuracy is very heavily bloated over what it should be. Consider 1.8 very generous, because far less should be the average for BBs

 

You missed the point by several miles.

Where BBs are and where they ought to be has nothing to do with it.  This is about where Musashi will be in relation to other Tier IX BBs.  Sure, if you think BBs should be much weaker you might think Musashi is a good step, but the problem is that all it means in the current game is that Musashi would be crap and nobody would use her.  If BBs need to be toned down then Musashi still ought to be brought in balanced with the other Tier IX BBs and then toned down along with all the other BBs.

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