Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
l1nv5

Let's switch IJN DDs guns to USN DD guns and vice versa

23 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

96
Members
413 posts
6,085 battles

@UrPeaceKeeper has been telling me that IJN DDs like Yugumo and Shimakaze have good guns with good arc and completely usable to deal damage and USN DDs like Fletcher and Gearing guns are bad to deal long range damage due to its terrible firing arc. We had agreed to disagree about that issue.

So an idea has popped into my mind. If IJN DDs are powerful because of having such guns that it is undeserving of having better torpedo concealment, and that USN DDs need better guns firing arc to deal damage, why don't we switch them guns over? So torpedoes kept the same, just Yugumo now has Fletcher guns (firing arc and reload speed) and Fletcher now has Yugumo guns. Wouldn't that be the perfect balance that we are looking for? :D

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,710
[HINON]
Modder, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
6,498 posts
3,751 battles

IJN guns are good, having a high velocity, and good damage. The mount they are placed in however isn't. Slow traverse speed and poor reload. *(Exception is Akizuki, with great traverse and reload, as well as great arcs and velocity. Suffers from poor damage and pen)

USN have excellent traverse and reload on their mounts, but poor shell arcs and slow velocity. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
358
[CUTER]
[CUTER]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
1,624 posts
8,921 battles

Already in game her name is Harekaze ijn dd with usn guns. Just like we will see an ijn dd with Russian guns at somepoint.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,830
[SALVO]
Members
17,156 posts
17,833 battles
1 hour ago, l1nv5 said:

@UrPeaceKeeper has been telling me that IJN DDs like Yugumo and Shimakaze have good guns with good arc and completely usable to deal damage and USN DDs like Fletcher and Gearing guns are bad to deal long range damage due to its terrible firing arc. We had agreed to disagree about that issue.

I think that you're mostly wrong here.

US DD guns are bad for dealing damage at long range unless perhaps you are shooting at a BB, or better yet, a BB that's barely moving.  (And US DD's problem isn't bad firing arcs.  It's bad shell trajectories, which is not the same thing.  "Firing arc" defines what angles at which a given gun or turret can engage target.  For example, the front turret on any ship clearly can't engage enemies directly over its stern, since that would cause it to shoot directly into its superstructure.)

OTOH, those high tier IJN DD guns do have good shell trajectories and do good damage.  But their low rate of fire and slow turret traverse make them terrible for engaging most DDs in gun fights, unless perhaps the enemy DD is very low health and you're just looking to finish it off.  From my experience, IJN DD guns are best for situations when the enemy team has been thinned out and you have a chance to engage an enemy ship at longer range on his unengaged side (the enemy ship should be engaging a more threatening target on his engaged side).  Then you're able to add your guns' damage to the damage of your team mate who is keeping the enemy ship's attention.  And frankly, you can do a pretty fair amount of damage.

For what little it's worth, back before OWSF was removed, you could actually set up a Shimmy for stealthy firing, which was pretty cool since it could allow you to do a moderate amount of damage as a base to build on during a game, particularly during torp reloads.  But with OWSF gone, you have to be a lot more circumspect about using a Shimmy's guns.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
603 posts
7,119 battles
3 hours ago, Crucis said:

OTOH, those high tier IJN DD guns do have good shell trajectories and do good damage.  But their low rate of fire and slow turret traverse make them terrible for engaging most DDs in gun fights, unless perhaps the enemy DD is very low health and you're just looking to finish it off.  From my experience, IJN DD guns are best for situations when the enemy team has been thinned out and you have a chance to engage an enemy ship at longer range on his unengaged side (the enemy ship should be engaging a more threatening target on his engaged side).  Then you're able to add your guns' damage to the damage of your team mate who is keeping the enemy ship's attention.  And frankly, you can do a pretty fair amount of damage.

I disagree. IJN DD guns are actually more than capable in a gun fight with, guess what, the USN DD. most IJN DD, aside from the Shimakaze, have concealment advantage over the USN one. and you can almost garentee to fire the first salvo before your opponent do (given you planned ahead and have you guns pointed at the right direction).

As long as you fire, and kite away, and keep 6km distance from the USN DD, they will always have a hard time hitting you, yet IJN better gun shell velocity let you hit them easier.

I've killed so many USN DD including benson, fletcher or even gearing in my Yugumo using this tactic.

 

 

@l1nv5, no, we don't need gun switch, this is too much fantasy. IJN guns are as good as it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
96
Members
413 posts
6,085 battles
1 hour ago, SkyRail said:

@l1nv5, no, we don't need gun switch, this is too much fantasy. IJN guns are as good as it is.

That's what I meant, they are "too good" so that IJN DDs are not "worthy" of better torp concealment because, you know, balancing. Why not "nerf" the gun to that of USN DD guns so that maybe IJN DDs can get a buff somewhere else?

1 hour ago, SkyRail said:

As long as you fire, and kite away, and keep 6km distance from the USN DD, they will always have a hard time hitting you, yet IJN better gun shell velocity let you hit them easier

Yes, exactly this. This "good" guns plus torp damage is why we need 1.7km and 2.5km torp concealment to balance out. So why not getting the "worse" gun of USN DDs so that IJN Torp can maybe have a buff?

 

6 hours ago, Doomlock said:

USN have excellent traverse and reload on their mounts, but poor shell arcs and slow velocity

Which imo, better for the purpose thats used most on IJN DDs, contest and secure caps. But since we have agreed to disagree, USN DD guns are miles less capable than IJN DD guns and @UrPeaceKeeper think that he'd rather have IJN DD guns instead.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,710
[HINON]
Modder, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
6,498 posts
3,751 battles
39 minutes ago, l1nv5 said:

Which imo, better for the purpose thats used most on IJN DDs, contest and secure caps. But since we have agreed to disagree, USN DD guns are miles less capable than IJN DD guns and @UrPeaceKeeper think that he'd rather have IJN DD guns instead.

Unfortunately, outside of specific situations, no IJN DD will have USN guns and mounts. And most certainly, no USN DD will have IJN guns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
603 posts
7,119 battles
41 minutes ago, l1nv5 said:

That's what I meant, they are "too good" so that IJN DDs are not "worthy" of better torp concealment because, you know, balancing. Why not "nerf" the gun to that of USN DD guns so that maybe IJN DDs can get a buff somewhere else?

Yes, exactly this. This "good" guns plus torp damage is why we need 1.7km and 2.5km torp concealment to balance out. So why not getting the "worse" gun of USN DDs so that IJN Torp can maybe have a buff?

 

Which imo, better for the purpose thats used most on IJN DDs, contest and secure caps. But since we have agreed to disagree, USN DD guns are miles less capable than IJN DD guns and @UrPeaceKeeper think that he'd rather have IJN DD guns instead.

those guns are just good, not TOO GOOD. 

and IJN DD as a whole need some buff regardless of the guns imo

and I think UrPeaceKeeper just don't want to admit IJN DD are generally weaker than others especially in the hands of high skill player as we discussed in other post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
632
[HEROS]
Members
1,431 posts
12,102 battles

IJN DD's have turned into a bit of an experts ship these days, especially at higher tiers.   This I'm quite willing to shout out load.  They are much more difficult to get good results out of then they used to be.   A combination of changes in game mechanics, more competition out there, and tweaks to the ships and the ships systems themselves.

      The guns aren't bad at all, but you have to make allowances for their typically poor traverse.  Gun accuracy how ever is utterly excellent and the shells pretty much go right where you tell them to.  RoF is nothing to write home about either but they tend to hit harder then most everyone else's DD mounted 127's and are competitive with the german 150's.  Good aim is essential to using the guns strengths.   The two variants to the rule are the Akizuki and the HSF Harekaze (american guns are an option but the 100mm mounts are over all the best even with out the Akizuki range) 

 

    I'm finding as I settle into the high tier meta that tier IX and X DD's don't scare me at all.  I;ve had the Yagmo..but shes a tad expensive to run if you aren't running premium time so I stick with my killer trio of Akzuki, Harekaze and Kagero,  All 3 I run RPF, and IFHE (yes, even the Kagero.. messes cruisers UP!) on the Harekaze and Kagero I run no smoke, using the torpedo reload booster instead and make a point of riding the edge of detection and being very... chary with my torpedos.  Generally I fire one launcher per target..I rarely expect to hit any thing.  It's a tactical thing, I'm spreading chaos and introducing what the military theorists call "Friction".  Surprisingly can be a very team oriented play style.  You can go lone wolf it or you can be one hell of a force multiplier in close escort (under 5Km)  of the bigger ships.   As long as your team doesn't run away like a bunch of hens from a fox of course.   

 

I'm hearing a rumor that there's thought of giving the Shimmy a no smoke option...a shimmy with TRB....Yea I could go for that.  The main thing is, is there are times where you just don't have the option of torps and that's when you either fall back on your guns, or simply fallback period and wait for your torps to come back up.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45
[-I-]
Members
147 posts
2,737 battles

High tier IJN DDs are probably THE most difficult ships to play correctly (maybe aside from CVs).
But because of that 99.5% of the players in this game just play them wrong or are not good enough to play them well.

Kagero, Yugumo and Shimakaze are all fine ship in the right hands. The Shimakaze will soon be buffed slightly although I disagree with the direction of the buff.

I'm so sick and tired of this whole "IJN DDs suck, their torps are bad, etc.pp. discussion.

So I'm sorry to say this but these ships don't need changes and if you struggle with them then you are just not good enough and that line maybe isn't for you.

Edited by tmGrunty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
96
Members
413 posts
6,085 battles
1 hour ago, tmGrunty said:

So I'm sorry to say this but these ships don't need changes and if you struggle with them then you are just not good enough and that line maybe isn't for you

This statement can be used for all ships. Without evidences it is just an opinion though. There are countless evidences that said otherwise though, like what @SkyRail and I has pointed out in the IJN Torp thread. Just go in there and take a look.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45
[-I-]
Members
147 posts
2,737 battles

Yeah I know those10 pages of your whining how bad IJN torps are.

You have proven there that you are immune to arguments so I don't bother ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
96
Members
413 posts
6,085 battles
4 hours ago, tmGrunty said:

Yeah I know those10 pages of your whining how bad IJN torps are.

You have proven there that you are immune to arguments so I don't bother ...

Lol how is pointing out the meaning of statistics immune to argument? On your side, I have not heard any argument at all, just attacks lol.

 

Edited by l1nv5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
96
Members
413 posts
6,085 battles
9 hours ago, tmGrunty said:

Kagero, Yugumo and Shimakaze are all fine ship the right hands. The Shimakaze will soon be buffed slightly although I disagree with the direction of the buff.

Any ship can be fine in the right hand. Except for Fletcher in the right hand performs 10k dmg better than Yugumo in the right hand. Pretty much all USN DDs perform on average 10 to 20k dmg/battle higher than IJN DDs of the same tier in the right hand. This was pointed out on the same thread you say we are only "whining" about IJN Torp. So STOP saying IJN DDs are "fine in the right hand". They are NOT.

21 hours ago, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

    I'm finding as I settle into the high tier meta that tier IX and X DD's don't scare me at all.  I;ve had the Yagmo..but shes a tad expensive to run if you aren't running premium time so I stick with my killer trio of Akzuki, Harekaze and Kagero,  All 3 I run RPF, and IFHE (yes, even the Kagero.. messes cruisers UP!) on the Harekaze and Kagero I run no smoke, using the torpedo reload booster instead and make a point of riding the edge of detection and being very... chary with my torpedos.  Generally I fire one launcher per target..I rarely expect to hit any thing.  It's a tactical thing, I'm spreading chaos and introducing what the military theorists call "Friction".  Surprisingly can be a very team oriented play style.  You can go lone wolf it or you can be one hell of a force multiplier in close escort (under 5Km)  of the bigger ships.   As long as your team doesn't run away like a bunch of hens from a fox of course.   

 

I'm hearing a rumor that there's thought of giving the Shimmy a no smoke option...a shimmy with TRB....Yea I could go for that.  The main thing is, is there are times where you just don't have the option of torps and that's when you either fall back on your guns, or simply fallback period and wait for your torps to come back up.

Running IFHE on Yugumo and Kagero is a waste imo, you will have to give up SE for it, which makes your ship pretty much 1-hit-kill. Again for those who say IJN torp deals a lot of damage, just look at practical matter, 1 Yugumo torp can't kill a Fletcher with SE but 1 Fletcher torp can kill a Yugumo with SE. How is it OK when hitting DD is the only time when a few 1000s dmg/torp matters the most??

I am running the same setup with TRB and when the shima comes out with TRB, I will definitely switch to it. I have ended games with shima with 4 smokes still available so smoke in shima is quite a utter waste. In game with CVs, it's crazy to go lone wolf. I usually rely a lot on friendly CV performance to deal damage or to cap at all. Without good friendly CV, I usually find the whole team run away and as a Yugumo with practically no AA, I can't push alone with CV hovering above my head. They will spot me and my torps, which pretty much neutralize if not outright kill me. They say CV counters BBs but imo, IJN DDs are countered the hardest and with little to no effort from thr CV player at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45
[-I-]
Members
147 posts
2,737 battles
9 minutes ago, l1nv5 said:

Pretty much all USN DDs perform on average 10 to 20k dmg/battle higher than IJN DDs of the same tier in the right hand.

This assumption of you is just false and not true and as you don't accept that it is wrong every discussion is pointless.


Go to https://wows-numbers.com/ and look up the stats of the top 5% of the players of T8+ IJN and USN DDs.

Their stats are all very similar and within a 5% difference of each other. 

 

The fact that the average stats are so much lower for IJN DDs in general just proves my point that IJN DD players on average just don't know how to utilize their ships correctly.

But that is not the fault of those ships but the players alone.

 

And this is the last thing I will say on this topic because as I stated earlier any discussion is pointless as you and others build your opinions and claims on false premises and don't accept the realitiy.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
96
Members
413 posts
6,085 battles
59 minutes ago, tmGrunty said:

This assumption of you is just false and not true and as you don't accept that it is wrong every discussion is pointless.


Go to https://wows-numbers.com/ and look up the stats of the top 5% of the players of T8+ IJN and USN DDs.

Their stats are all very similar and within a 5% difference of each other. 

Not accepting "Paired-t-test" statistics you are throwing a whole branch of science out the window lol. Btw "false" and "not true" are the same thing so saying one is enough to make your point. I get your point on top 5% but this again proved my point conveniently. Consistent 3K/62k damage difference across the board despite they being the top 5%. So apparently in the right hand or left hand, it doesnt matter. Yugumo is NOT fine in the right hand. If you take into account other ships and other factors, Yugumo is the worst in all stats by a far margin. Top 5% but sub 70%WR, sub 2k exp. Thank you for the statistics to prove my point again.

Screenshot_20171219-083722.thumb.jpg.66e26b9f34d0c83d55d8f8974e80a30a.jpg

59 minutes ago, tmGrunty said:

The fact that the average stats are so much lower for IJN DDs in general just proves my point that IJN DD players on average just don't know how to utilize their ships correctly.

CaptureAkatsSims.thumb.PNG.913ba509d7f72a6fac68a5e403191f4b.PNGCaptureKagBen.thumb.PNG.e8e1eabc7fc6470094f426811e891a18.PNG5a2923238c454_CaptureYugFlet.thumb.PNG.5305113a8ec4d3e0e6adf4bedbd02668.PNG

CaptureMutFara.thumb.PNG.d238d4701b6b7a50b669893de2c7ec36.PNG

you look at these damage distributions and tell me which player populations has the majority of those who "don't know how to handle the ship correctly". The fact is despite having majority of those who "don't know how to handle the ship correctly", they still manage to balance the average damage number with a more balanced in skill population on another ship. If this is not saying the IJN DDs are underpowered, I don't know what is.  

Edited by l1nv5
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
632
[HEROS]
Members
1,431 posts
12,102 battles

WOOPS.. ok, theres an error in the stats but it's not obvious.

 

Lets see if I can explain it to you.  The IJN and US DD lines were the first lines in the game.. we had quite a wait untill we saw the Russian and German, and just recently pan asian lines.   SO the US line, and the IJN lines have been collecting statistical data sufficiently longer as to really mess with the number are telling us.. remeber we all started fresh with the IJN and US lines (cept for the alpha and beta testers)  where as the RU, GE, and PA lines that players are coming at those with far more experience with DD's and that right there is going to effect what the number are telling us.. also bear in mind when tracking IJN DD's that the IJN line went through a pretty major shake up with ships changing tiers all over the place which also effecting the numbers and what they mean.

 

Statistics are all well and good, but   the statistical period of time covered the more "normalized" the numbers become.. check the numbers in a years time for the RU, and GE lines and you'll find the differences will have shrunk over all, and will be much closer to the IJN and US DD lines.  

 

as a way of example, my life time W/L ratio is under 50% yet over the last 3-4 months my WR is more often then not over 60%.  Doing some quick (and not terribly accurate) math I would need to hold a 100% WR for about 3 months gtting in 10 matches per day to get my life time average above maybe 55%.. so about 1000 matches with no losses to get my life average up because I have something like 8k lifetime matches played.

Raw number can mean just about anything you want them to.  It's all in how you cook them.   Just ask any honest to god it's what I do for a living statistician.

For that matter ask any CFO of any major corporation you care to name.  

IJN DD's are more difficult to play because the game it's self has changed.  There is a lot more competition, and the IJN DD's have been very hard hit over the last two years by nerfs specifc to the line, and nerfs/changes that have effected DD's in general..  You have no idea how much crap I had to go through to get the Supremacy League team I was on until recently to allow me to run with a Kagero.  (Benson is the DD of choice there).  I had to show them how effective a no smoke Kagero could be and sweeten the deal by noting that one less smoke DD ment one more Kutuzov premium russian cruiser (limited to 3 ships with smoke in a match)  My team went 8-4 last season so, yea, did pretty well.  (Though I prefer my Harekaze more.. its the guns ya know)

 

the problem most IJN DD players have is there a little too aggressive.  Coupled with the main stream of more catious play from CA and BB drivers and it real easy to find your self hung out to dry in a big hurry especially with the IJN DD's.

 

The ships are important, but it's the player that is the ships brains.  I run no smoke these days because it FORCES me to be more cautious.  ANd that simply playing a bit more cautiously has drastically improved my WR in the short term.  All of my numbers in IJN DD's have come up (in the short time, I am unicum these days, and what a long nasty bit of road that's been!).  I check my stats on a weekly basis while not consistently every day unicum, I have more and more days where I pass that magic 1200-1500 WTR for the day.  It's player skill, and knowledge.   IJN DD's take a pretty precise skill set and mind set to do well with.

It's up to the player to do that.   I run low tier in more of my fights then I'm high tier (oh thank you dear MM! Uhg!) so its no option I will face the "best" ships in the game in my lowly tier VIII's.  But then again I'm not an "average" DD player anymore.  Of course this does kinda make ya wonder about the tier X players I'm constantly facing.   

 

Some DD line are easier to play.  The US line just gets better and better and better the higher in tier you go.  Same same German and Russian lines, and now Pan Asian line.  Putting US guns on IJN ships.. well I've tried that with the Harekaze and frankly I'll stick with my IJN guns.

What I'm not going to do is call someone stupid or a fool because their opinion on the matter is different.  One thing for sure I have learned with this game is it's all about the players skill with what they have, and how well they use ALL of a ships capabilities.    

TL_Warlord_Roff

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
96
Members
413 posts
6,085 battles

@TL_Warlord_Roff while I do agree that by covering a wide period of time (since the beginning of WOWs) that could make USN DD data and IJN DD data more normalized compared to other nations but the data should be pretty much comparable between IJN DD and USN DD alone (since they cover the same though wide period of time). Also to determine the degree of how such data are normalized, we have to take into account how many battles are played when the game was launched and how many battles are played within recent time where by all the major nerf/buff has already taken place. I think it's a pretty safe assumption to say that the data consists of mostly battles played after major buff/nerf to the ships due to the ever-expanding WOWs community. That issue aside, on the other thread I also pointed out that between 2 specific ships, Yugumo and Fletcher, on EU server where Fletcher data was not populated by overpopulation of noobs playing the ship, the true performance of Fletcher compared to Yugumo is very obviously reflected by the data as you can see below,

CaptureFletYugEU.thumb.PNG.b2ad6030d70b32cad43def269682ee99.PNG

Both data sets has the mean roughly overlapping with the median value so these are 2 neutral bell-curve, you can safely compare the population mean value. And the mean value of Fletcher is 39k, which is 3.5k higher than that of Yugumo, 35.5k. With high degree of certainty I think we can conclude Yugumo is underpowered compared to Fletcher?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,755 posts
9,938 battles
On 12/17/2017 at 5:32 PM, SkyRail said:

I disagree. IJN DD guns are actually more than capable in a gun fight with, guess what, the USN DD. most IJN DD, aside from the Shimakaze, have concealment advantage over the USN one. and you can almost garentee to fire the first salvo before your opponent do (given you planned ahead and have you guns pointed at the right direction).

As long as you fire, and kite away, and keep 6km distance from the USN DD, they will always have a hard time hitting you, yet IJN better gun shell velocity let you hit them easier.

I've killed so many USN DD including benson, fletcher or even gearing in my Yugumo using this tactic.

 

 

@l1nv5, no, we don't need gun switch, this is too much fantasy. IJN guns are as good as it is.

I share your experiences as well.  Most of the issue is IJN DD players trying to torp a DD instead of shooting them.  By the time they get around to shooting their ship is much lower HP wise and full of busted modules.

I see the intent of the post is to rehash the weakness of IJN DDs.  I do not share this opinion, and also echo TM's opinion where I am not going to waste my time on this thread.

Happy Holidays,

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44
[TIAR]
[TIAR]
Beta Testers
446 posts
10,156 battles
On 12/17/2017 at 2:05 PM, l1nv5 said:

@UrPeaceKeeper has been telling me that IJN DDs like Yugumo and Shimakaze have good guns with good arc and completely usable to deal damage and USN DDs like Fletcher and Gearing guns are bad to deal long range damage due to its terrible firing arc. We had agreed to disagree about that issue.

So an idea has popped into my mind. If IJN DDs are powerful because of having such guns that it is undeserving of having better torpedo concealment, and that USN DDs need better guns firing arc to deal damage, why don't we switch them guns over? So torpedoes kept the same, just Yugumo now has Fletcher guns (firing arc and reload speed) and Fletcher now has Yugumo guns. Wouldn't that be the perfect balance that we are looking for? :D

They will never do!! 

They need US market, they cant make US ship the same crap as IJN.

But will love to see that happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×