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iChase

Why HMCS Haida is taking so long

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Hey all,

I've seen quite a few posts and threads on forums, reddit, etc of people asking why WG hasn't put HMCS Haida into the game yet. While I won't claim to know the exact reason, I think I can at least offer you guys a potential reason(s) for why it's taking so long.

First things first, we all know how long it takes WG to actually model a ship and get it into the game (6 months) so it's possible that the ship is in the pipeline and being worked on. 

In the event that is not the case, the next thing I can think of is Parks Canada policy regarding all things HMCS Haida. Parks Canada is the entity who pretty much owns HMCS Haida. That means for WG to utilize HMCS Haida's likeness, photos, videos, etc of the ship, they have to pay licensing fees to Parks Canada (how much is anyone's guess, but I'm sure it'll be a pretty penny). In addition, I do believe most things done even with the license still has to undergo a Parks Canada review to make sure she is being represented properly. 

My own experiences with Parks Canada is umm...mind boggling to say the least. while I was eventually able to release a behind the scenes video of WG guys filming the naval legends episode, it almost didn't happen. WG had to go to bat for me with Parks Canada in order to allow them to grant me permission to release the video (which still had to go through their review process). Most of you have probably wondered why HMCS Haida, a ship very close to where I live, has never made it into a Know Your Ship video, because even though I want to just share the history of the ship and have a zero-revenue generating video posted to YouTube, Parks Canada wanted me to pay quite a hefty license fee. Which obviously killed the idea of making that video right there and then.

So yeah, there's probably a good reason WG hasn't released HMCS Haida yet.

Just thought I'd share

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I feel like the biggest reason is just that after Pigeon prodded WG, there was still many ships before hand being worked on... Hence Haida might be a bit longer than that 6 months.

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2 minutes ago, Cruiser_Noshiro said:

I feel like the biggest reason is just that after Pigeon prodded WG, there was still many ships before hand being worked on... Hence Haida might be a bit longer than that 6 months.

 

Not to mention the very fact that Pigeon had to prod WG in the first place.

They just don't quite understand why we want her. It was the same situation with Enterprise. They aren't going to rush to complete a ship like Haida just because there might be demand for her in one region, especially when the situation itself is so complex with Parks Canada being a nightmare of paperwork and logistical workings.   

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This doesn't surprise me, Canada has a lot of pretty messed up ways of doing things. If it isn't overbearing so-called "human rights" bureaucracy wanting to force people to use someone's made-up words in everyday speech, it's regulations on who can actually record voice roles for projects being put together in Canada, if only in part. So hearing that Parks Canada wants to so heavily regulate everything they have their fingers into, is no great surprise, nor hearing that they are demanding hefty "compensation."

And people say American governments can be burdensome...:Smile-_tongue:

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We'll more likely see her after the Brits get a full DD line. Once that's out, THEN I'll join the prodding.   I'm patient and I know they'll come through

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Wait a second.

Let me just get this straight, they've got copyright licensing on a museum ship? what? This sounds self-contradictory as hell.

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1 hour ago, Akeno017 said:

Wait a second.

Let me just get this straight, they've got copyright licensing on a museum ship? what? This sounds self-contradictory as hell.

However doubtful/dubious/questionable copyrighting the name and design of a famous ship of past wars may be, the cost of testing that copyright in court is probably not worth the money or effort. Not least because the same copyright which allows abuse for monopolistic commercial motivations also prevents abuse of (other) historical monuments for political stuff. And this is to (over) simplify the topic.

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2 hours ago, iChase said:

 

My own experiences with Parks Canada is umm...mind boggling to say the least. while I was eventually able to release a behind the scenes video of WG guys filming the naval legends episode, it almost . Most of you have probably wondered why HMCS Haida, a ship very close to where I live, has never made it into a Know Your Ship video, because even though I want to just share the history of the ship and have a zero-revenue generating video posted to YouTube, Parks Canada wanted me to pay quite a hefty license fee. Which obviously killed the idea of making that video right there and then.

So yeah, there's probably a good reason WG hasn't released HMCS Haida yet.

Just thought I'd share

Interesting. Why not agree to their licence fee, set it to 80 per cent of the revenue from that particular video, and post away?

0.80 x 0 = 0

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Whilst I'm all in favour of Tribal destroyers, why not a more well-known one? Sikh, Cossack, Zulu, Eskimo....   ....didn't have to google to know those ship names....   ...Rather than one from a navy that spent 99% of it's time on ASW? :Smile_bajan2:

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I believe the reason for Haida's prolonged absence from WoWS is because WG's priorites are elsewhere (e.g. PA DDs). I seriously doubt that WG could take so long to model a ship because unlike battleships, Haida's just a destroyer. If it really takes six months then thank goodness I've never given WG any money because I don't want them wasting it on developing paper/fake designs while real historical ships like Haida continue to be neglected.

On the bright side, at least Cossack is coming soon which is also a Tribal.

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1 hour ago, UltimateNewbie said:

Interesting. Why not agree to their licence fee, set it to 80 per cent of the revenue from that particular video, and post away?

0.80 x 0 = 0

It's probably a flat fee or flat fee plus percentage. 

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The best answer is to just be patient. As I've stated before, Pigeon came through for us with E, he'll come through with Haida. 

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1 hour ago, RipNuN2 said:

It's probably a flat fee or flat fee plus percentage. 

yep that is how is usually works.

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5 hours ago, Goodwood_Alpha said:

This doesn't surprise me, Canada has a lot of pretty messed up ways of doing things. If it isn't overbearing so-called "human rights" bureaucracy wanting to force people to use someone's made-up words in everyday speech, it's regulations on who can actually record voice roles for projects being put together in Canada, if only in part. So hearing that Parks Canada wants to so heavily regulate everything they have their fingers into, is no great surprise, nor hearing that they are demanding hefty "compensation."

And people say American governments can be burdensome...:Smile-_tongue:

Given the litigious nature of our neighbours to the south, talk about compensation for one thing or another from someone in the US is ironic at best.  

American governments these days are downright amusing with their Twitterer in Chief  :Smile-_tongue:

 

I do hope Haida does make an appearance soon though.  :Smile_Default:

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canuckisatni  goverment is quite a bit more archaic having experienced working in both countries.              

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4 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

However doubtful/dubious/questionable copyrighting the name and design of a famous ship of past wars may be, the cost of testing that copyright in court is probably not worth the money or effort. Not least because the same copyright which allows abuse for monopolistic commercial motivations also prevents abuse of (other) historical monuments for political stuff. And this is to (over) simplify the topic.

I'm too lazy to dig into this specific situation but I do work in my day job with items that are considered Canadian cultural material and have some legal protection, so I thought I'd share a couple of points.  IIRC in the case of Parks Canada restricting access or use of things they own, it's not so much that they're copyrighting the name or the design; that doesn't make any sense in Canadian law.  You can't copyright facts, and they'd be laughed out of court by their own lawyers if they tried, so this definitely isn't the direct reason.

The rules are probably more closely related to using government/public property for profit.  Even if somebody claims that they're not going to monetize a video, that doesn't mean that nobody -- i.e.: Google, or even a channel owner more generally simply due to added subs, etc. -- is making a profit in some manner.  And beyond this, Parks Canada is fairly protective in how they allow parks/historical monuments to be used in general.  Personally I this is a good thing when it comes to parks based around an old fragile ship and in-part act as a war memorial, but I can see how it's annoying in this particular case.  Especially for those of us who really want to play her in game!

So it may be a case of Parks Canada simply being very cautious in co-operating or collaborating.  WG could probably knock out a generic Tribal-class destroyer, assuming the general design is still available in an archive, but to build a close copy of a specific ship requires a lot of access to a protected ship.

Parks Canada and the federal government in particular are also very cautious about how they let people use anything that might imply endorsement of a particular product.  The government almost never allows its departments or its various marks to be used for commercial gain.  Keep that in mind for the following:

As much as I love Warships and appreciate what WG does, it's not that hard to imagine how a video game that makes money via microtransactions and relatively expensive sale of virtual goods is something that they'd look at very closely.  It's not a documentary by PBS or CBC about the sailors of the Korean War or the like, it's a for profit video game owned by a multinational based in a notorious tax haven.  It's not hard at all to imagine the lawyers all the way through to the Department of Heritage wanting to take a very close look at what's going on.  In the past I've had to get waivers simply to ship films that have significant historical value to the United States simply to do specialist restoration work, and those cases didn't involve anybody profiting directly from the end product.

On a more positive note, perhaps WG has offered to do something similar to the fundraiser for USS Texas given that Haida definitely needs work.  That could take a while to get sorted out as well given that it's not a private foundation.

Just a few thoughts...

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8 hours ago, RivertheRoyal said:

 

Not to mention the very fact that Pigeon had to prod WG in the first place.

They just don't quite understand why we want her. It was the same situation with Enterprise. They aren't going to rush to complete a ship like Haida just because there might be demand for her in one region, especially when the situation itself is so complex with Parks Canada being a nightmare of paperwork and logistical workings.   

This right here is a big reason, imo. If we look at WG's releases, they have a really bad track record of knowing what the community wants.

There's the Enterprise example here. There's the fact WG was blindsided by Alabamagate. There's De Grasse. Out of the Italian premiums, Cesare has been the only 'good' pick despite the fact we've had four of them. Roma is debatable, but the cruisers are a mess, with d'Aosta being picked over Eugenio di Savoia, and somehow Abruzzi being picked over Garibaldi.

Mutsu's another good example, and I'm sure I could come up with a bunch more.

 

I don't know how they are with RU and SEA, but as far as NA & EU is concerned, they aren't great at picking out what players actually want to see as premiums.

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8 hours ago, Goodwood_Alpha said:

This doesn't surprise me, Canada has a lot of pretty messed up ways of doing things. If it isn't overbearing so-called "human rights" bureaucracy wanting to force people to use someone's made-up words in everyday speech, it's regulations on who can actually record voice roles for projects being put together in Canada, if only in part. So hearing that Parks Canada wants to so heavily regulate everything they have their fingers into, is no great surprise, nor hearing that they are demanding hefty "compensation."

And people say American governments can be burdensome...:Smile-_tongue:

Sounds like true freedom in Canada.

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9 hours ago, iChase said:

Hey all,

I've seen quite a few posts and threads on forums, reddit, etc of people asking why WG hasn't put HMCS Haida into the game yet. While I won't claim to know the exact reason, I think I can at least offer you guys a potential reason(s) for why it's taking so long.

First things first, we all know how long it takes WG to actually model a ship and get it into the game (6 months) so it's possible that the ship is in the pipeline and being worked on. 

In the event that is not the case, the next thing I can think of is Parks Canada policy regarding all things HMCS Haida. Parks Canada is the entity who pretty much owns HMCS Haida. That means for WG to utilize HMCS Haida's likeness, photos, videos, etc of the ship, they have to pay licensing fees to Parks Canada (how much is anyone's guess, but I'm sure it'll be a pretty penny). In addition, I do believe most things done even with the license still has to undergo a Parks Canada review to make sure she is being represented properly. 

My own experiences with Parks Canada is umm...mind boggling to say the least. while I was eventually able to release a behind the scenes video of WG guys filming the naval legends episode, it almost didn't happen. WG had to go to bat for me with Parks Canada in order to allow them to grant me permission to release the video (which still had to go through their review process). Most of you have probably wondered why HMCS Haida, a ship very close to where I live, has never made it into a Know Your Ship video, because even though I want to just share the history of the ship and have a zero-revenue generating video posted to YouTube, Parks Canada wanted me to pay quite a hefty license fee. Which obviously killed the idea of making that video right there and then.

So yeah, there's probably a good reason WG hasn't released HMCS Haida yet.

Just thought I'd share

Well then they should give the big middle finger to parks Canada and release HMCS Ontario instead and make her as OP as Belfast.

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15 minutes ago, IronMike11B4O said:

Well then they should give the big middle finger to parks Canada and release HMCS Ontario instead and make her as OP as Belfast.

This I agree with. Or even release HMCS Sackville as a T2 Prem.

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10 hours ago, Akeno017 said:

Wait a second.

Let me just get this straight, they've got copyright licensing on a museum ship? what? This sounds self-contradictory as hell.

I remember a time in the late 90s or early 2000s when certain American companies were talking about requiring payments to put WWII aircraft their company, or companies they had purchased, had made into games.  If I recall correctly the P-38 was one of them, and the fee they were thinking of was just shy of $1,000,000.00.  Needless to say the result would have been the absence of the P-38 from all WWII flight sims.  I don't know why or how their minds got changed, but at the time there was a lot of displeasure in the flight sim community about it, about a private company basically laying legal claim to parts of our shared history.

Parks Canada's treatment of Haida reminds me of that.

Edited by Helstrem

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The issue here is that Parks Canada has basically zero legal ground to stand on if WG decides to flip them the bird and put Haida into their game regardless however, I don't think WG wants to chance a legal battle over a premium.

However seeing how WG already filmed a Naval Legends and Cossack is coming soon, maybe Haida may come after all.

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