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Crap_Shoot

Air Supremacy and the recent state of Carriers

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Preface: Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, but I'm not here to advocate the removal of an entire class or nerf them into oblivion.  CVs aren't fun but they aren't beyond salvage.  I don't want to start a "remove CVs from the game" flamewar.

 

 

Air Supremacy skill has never sat well with me, but due to recent changes I think it is now overdue to be scrapped.  It's overpowered and benefits ships that are already powerful without them.  +1 fighter, +1 dive bomber per squad: sounds great for IJN to close the gap with USN fighters, but every USN captain that can will also take it, so the difference stays the same.

Before T4/5 were defanged (which I will get to later), this +1 advantage basically let sealclubbers in dedicated Langleys and Bogues run rampant and shut down any chance of a learning player to counter them.  This is less of a problem with auto drops now, but it amazes me this was never addressed early on in any way.

Then the Saipan came along.  Now the game had its first premium CV.  And because WG loves gimmicks, they decided to give it small squads of high tier planes.  Sounds okay at first, until you realize that now T5 ships get to face T9 aircraft, a 4 tier difference where the targets don't even get Defensive Fire, save the occasional B hull Nicholas.  And since a Saipan can take any captain, you can have a Midway guy fighting Ryujos and Independences that haven't gotten a full skill loadout yet.  Run AS on a Saipan and now you have 8-12 T9 fighters and up to 9 DBs in the air.  A skilled captain can bully any CV or DD with these numbers.  Kaga came next, and it went the opposite route of lots of weak planes.  And the situation isn't much better as a Kaga can simply use the principle of overwhelming numbers, especially with an extra 3 DB in a strike package.  And then the Enterprise was introduced, and brought a whole new weapon to the seas, AP bombs.  Now bombs went from weapons of harassment/opportunity to orbital nukes that can pretty much kill anything with a good roll.

So, how can carriers be improved?  I won't pretend to preach the gospel (I have limited experience playing lower tiers only), but I have seen what they can do at all tiers.  So some ideas I have to make life better for everyone:

1. Fix T4/5.  Removing manual drops was a bad idea.  This game is terrible at teaching mechanics in an intuitive manner, and completely removing a method of attack at the tiers where cruisers can't instantly delete entire squadrons doesn't help anyone.  Now we have players going into T6 that may not even know about manual drop, and half the ships they can practice on will shred everything they have.  I get sealclubbing was a problem at low tiers, but the lack of damage scaling with torpedoes was the real problem.  A good manual drop could kill almost anyone, even if they (try to) evade.  Lowering alpha strike could easily make it to where you can still hurt a ship but you can't just pick any noob and remove them from play with one click.  Oh, and you can currently have T5 CVs get attacked by T6 CVs.  One party gets strafing, the other doesn't.  That was a great idea.  Hope your teammate can help you out, I guess.  Sucks if he's a potato.

2.  Remove Air Supremacy from the skill tree.  Saipan is the poster child of why this isn't a fun mechanic, but now we have bombers that are arguably scarier than some torpedoes, and T8-10 now gets 2-3 extra rounds of armor piercing fun and engagement per strike.  This will also tone down the premiums without completely nerfing them and pissing everyone off.

3. Loiter time of airplanes.  Ask any DD what his/her biggest frustration is in a game and it's invariably going to be the ability to be permanently spotted.  This is especially bad for IJN ships, where their torpedoes and stealth are their only strength, because the guns are slow.  And they get the weakest AA, so once planes show up, you can't even scare them off.  Planes can show up and jut hang around all they want, (especially if the DD is trying a deep territory run or the other CV has been dealt with), spotting fish and ruining any chance of surprise.  Maybe planes should have a fuel stat, so you can still spot and attack anyone on the map but you do have to pull back and service planes at some point, and give some ships a chance to breathe.

Also, who thought 2 TB Midway was a good idea?  Wasn't that removed in Beta because it was way too powerful?  And now it's back?  Seriously?  Cross dropping 12 torpedoes and up to 14 tactical nukes AP bombs?  Cool.  At least they aren't jets, I guess.

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There is another argument for removing Air Supremacy, to nerf seal clubbing with 10pt captains in tiers 4 and 5. The 10pt captain requirement is a sure deterrent to new CV players, it should either be a 2 pt skill, unavailable for low tier cvs, or as the OP suggests, removed/

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Personally I think that skill should be replaced anyways to close the disparity between noobs and people like Aerroon. Arguably only CE serves as the same kind of wall in performance.

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I like hovering DDs when I'm the CV.  I don't like it when I'm the DD.  That's a fact of life. 

 

Other than that, OP has some really good proposals.  Either make Air Supremacy cost less or remove it entirely.  It takes way too long to get to it, and while you don't have it, you get clubbed.

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Getting a 10 point captain doesn't take long at all, it's nothing like when you needed a 15 point captain, and if you have a 19 point captain anywhere, getting another 10 point captain is usually a matter of seconds.

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1 hour ago, Crap_Shoot said:

Also, who thought 2 TB Midway was a good idea?  Wasn't that removed in Beta because it was way too powerful?  And now it's back?  Seriously?  Cross dropping 12 torpedoes and up to 14 tactical nukes AP bombs?  Cool.  At least they aren't jets, I guess.

The TBs are tier 8 on a tier 10 cv

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Actually, another problem with the Air Supremacy skill is that IJN CV's get more benefit from it than USN CVs.  How?  if an IJN CV has 2 4-plane fighter squadrons, it gains 1 fighter PER SQUADRON for a total of 10, whereas a single 6-plane USN fighter squadron only gains a single plane, for a total of 7.  So you go from 8 to 10 fighters with the IJN CV whereas you go from 6 to only 7 fighters with the USN CV.  Hardly seems fair and balanced to me.

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"Lets nerf CVs again without offering anything in compensation for the average player and make it harder for them. BECAUSE REASONS"

In the mean time things would be the exact same and you would be killed by the players you cry about.

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4 hours ago, Crap_Shoot said:

Preface: Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, but I'm not here to advocate the removal of an entire class or nerf them into oblivion.  CVs aren't fun but they aren't beyond salvage.  I don't want to start a "remove CVs from the game" flamewar.

 

 

Air Supremacy skill has never sat well with me, but due to recent changes I think it is now overdue to be scrapped.  It's overpowered and benefits ships that are already powerful without them.  +1 fighter, +1 dive bomber per squad: sounds great for IJN to close the gap with USN fighters, but every USN captain that can will also take it, so the difference stays the same.

Before T4/5 were defanged (which I will get to later), this +1 advantage basically let sealclubbers in dedicated Langleys and Bogues run rampant and shut down any chance of a learning player to counter them.  This is less of a problem with auto drops now, but it amazes me this was never addressed early on in any way.

Then the Saipan came along.  Now the game had its first premium CV.  And because WG loves gimmicks, they decided to give it small squads of high tier planes.  Sounds okay at first, until you realize that now T5 ships get to face T9 aircraft, a 4 tier difference where the targets don't even get Defensive Fire, save the occasional B hull Nicholas.  And since a Saipan can take any captain, you can have a Midway guy fighting Ryujos and Independences that haven't gotten a full skill loadout yet.  Run AS on a Saipan and now you have 8-12 T9 fighters and up to 9 DBs in the air.  A skilled captain can bully any CV or DD with these numbers.  Kaga came next, and it went the opposite route of lots of weak planes.  And the situation isn't much better as a Kaga can simply use the principle of overwhelming numbers, especially with an extra 3 DB in a strike package.  And then the Enterprise was introduced, and brought a whole new weapon to the seas, AP bombs.  Now bombs went from weapons of harassment/opportunity to orbital nukes that can pretty much kill anything with a good roll.

So, how can carriers be improved?  I won't pretend to preach the gospel (I have limited experience playing lower tiers only), but I have seen what they can do at all tiers.  So some ideas I have to make life better for everyone:

1. Fix T4/5.  Removing manual drops was a bad idea.  This game is terrible at teaching mechanics in an intuitive manner, and completely removing a method of attack at the tiers where cruisers can't instantly delete entire squadrons doesn't help anyone.  Now we have players going into T6 that may not even know about manual drop, and half the ships they can practice on will shred everything they have.  I get sealclubbing was a problem at low tiers, but the lack of damage scaling with torpedoes was the real problem.  A good manual drop could kill almost anyone, even if they (try to) evade.  Lowering alpha strike could easily make it to where you can still hurt a ship but you can't just pick any noob and remove them from play with one click.  Oh, and you can currently have T5 CVs get attacked by T6 CVs.  One party gets strafing, the other doesn't.  That was a great idea.  Hope your teammate can help you out, I guess.  Sucks if he's a potato.

2.  Remove Air Supremacy from the skill tree.  Saipan is the poster child of why this isn't a fun mechanic, but now we have bombers that are arguably scarier than some torpedoes, and T8-10 now gets 2-3 extra rounds of armor piercing fun and engagement per strike.  This will also tone down the premiums without completely nerfing them and pissing everyone off.

3. Loiter time of airplanes.  Ask any DD what his/her biggest frustration is in a game and it's invariably going to be the ability to be permanently spotted.  This is especially bad for IJN ships, where their torpedoes and stealth are their only strength, because the guns are slow.  And they get the weakest AA, so once planes show up, you can't even scare them off.  Planes can show up and jut hang around all they want, (especially if the DD is trying a deep territory run or the other CV has been dealt with), spotting fish and ruining any chance of surprise.  Maybe planes should have a fuel stat, so you can still spot and attack anyone on the map but you do have to pull back and service planes at some point, and give some ships a chance to breathe.

Also, who thought 2 TB Midway was a good idea?  Wasn't that removed in Beta because it was way too powerful?  And now it's back?  Seriously?  Cross dropping 12 torpedoes and up to 14 tactical nukes AP bombs?  Cool.  At least they aren't jets, I guess.

1. T4-5 suffered way more with alt attacks than they are now. Not being a clubber it was easy to steamroll any cv that was not played by a comparable skill player, once you learned how to use them. Now at least both players have a chance.

2. Removing AS doesn't change anything. Literally nothing. Most of my Saipan games were with captains in training against fewer AS skilled players, it was a 5 skill skill. Meaning it took a 15 skill captain to get it. Everything played exactly the same as now. 

That's not to say that there is no difference between one cv having it and the other does not. Just that the meta is so saturated with the skill that it is not a problem. It might as well one point skill at this point.

3. This is more a problem with the allied cv not doing their job instead of a cv mechanic issue. 

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CVs are actually beyond salvage. They won’t ever be balanced because they don’t fit into this game. Trying to force it hasn’t worked, and it never will.

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5 hours ago, Crap_Shoot said:

Also, who thought 2 TB Midway was a good idea?  Wasn't that removed in Beta because it was way too powerful?  And now it's back?  Seriously?  Cross dropping 12 torpedoes and up to 14 tactical nukes AP bombs?  Cool.  At least they aren't jets, I guess.

1. Its a T8 planes

2. Hak always have 12 torpedos, with a triple cross dropping, but anoyone crying about that~

3. AP bombs is fun but only work vs a small amouth of targers.

4. The actual fighters are faster then she old jets... Bring the jets back with actual fighter status!

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