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Battleship question about higher tiers

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After long and extreme deliberation, I am considering abandoning my battleships. At tier 3 and 4 there is no other ship I would rather be in, but at tier 5 (with +2 mm coming into play) I have noticed that all each game is is blasting people over 15km away, missing, and waiting 30 seconds to do it again. Looking at youtubes of tier 8-10 games it is ALL at extreme ranges. I quite miss going ham on 3 cruisers at once <10 km in my Nassau. 

Is BB gameplay just basically sniping or is there a lot more close ranged stuff that I am missing out on? I would much rather be in a knife fight where I have to plan my turns, time my reloads, and spray hate with secondaries, as opposed being half asleep trying to judge the lead I should give a ship. Is it even worth going up or should bail on these ships?

 

Sail on!

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The higher in tier you go, the more the meta is 'throw HE at range'. Brawls become less common. This is a result of a few things:

1) firepower escalating faster than armor means that even battleships die faster in high tier than they do in low / mid tier.

2) Ships service costs become very high, so people are more afraid to lose their ship, only barely realising that with a flat service fee per match, dying or surviving doesn't change the per-match cost.

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6 minutes ago, Lert said:

2) Ships service costs become very high, so people are more afraid to lose their ship, only barely realising that with a flat service fee per match, dying or surviving doesn't change the per-match cost.

Whether they realize it or not, staying alive longer also makes them think that they have more time to farm damage and earn more out of the match

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Pretty much what Lert said. The offensive capabilities of all high tier ships far outstrips their capacity to take, mitigate, or shrug off incoming fire. While I wouldn't necessarily stop your BB play, MCCIV, it does get tougher as you progress up the trees, with preplanning and minimap awareness becoming extremely important skills to hone and improve upon. Personally, I'm a DD main, and find myself pretty worthless in T9-T10 BBs as the meta is just too much of a tightrope walk for me. T5 is tough due to the MM, true, but things improve for BBs at T6, 7, and 8 (tho MM kinda screws you over at 8 as well), so you may want to consider continuing your grinds even if only for the fun of moving up.

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As Lert said above, plus gun range and accuracy also increases.

At the lower tiers 15-16km is the upper limit of quite a few ships (IJN BBs being an exception), and accuracy at those ranges can be a bit inconsistent.

At the higher tiers guns are now ranging from 19km to 24km, and while the accuracy can still be described as inconsistent the ships are still plenty capable of landing hits.

 

Plus with the gun ranges being further reaching even with inconsistent accuracy you are simply in range of more ships. Lower tiers initial contact may only put you in range of a couple of ships on that flank, high tiers usually the whole flank can open up and sometimes even ships on the other flank. Couple this with the generally resulting situation of players typically shooting the easiest and/or closest target and that is why high tiers are BBs hanging back, they're already generally the easiest target to hit in terms of size and mobility, being closest would just compound that.

 

The KM BBs are the best line if you really do desire getting stuck in and having secondaries blazing so to speak. With the right modules and captain skills you can get high tier KM BBs with secondaries that reach out to about 11km, that is significant. The issue is that is still way too close, the trick is to try and only engage a couple of enemies with those secondaries (using terrain to shield yourself is another method of selectively engaging) and preferably enemies that are isolated and/or over-extended and then only at the fringes of your secondary range. Keep in mind however that a focused secondary build can leave you lacking in other quality of life skills.

Edited by Meatshield_No13

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On 12/14/2017 at 9:01 PM, MCCIV said:

After long and extreme deliberation, I am considering abandoning my battleships. At tier 3 and 4 there is no other ship I would rather be in, but at tier 5 (with +2 mm coming into play) I have noticed that all each game is is blasting people over 15km away, missing, and waiting 30 seconds to do it again. Looking at youtubes of tier 8-10 games it is ALL at extreme ranges. I quite miss going ham on 3 cruisers at once <10 km in my Nassau. 

Is BB gameplay just basically sniping or is there a lot more close ranged stuff that I am missing out on? I would much rather be in a knife fight where I have to plan my turns, time my reloads, and spray hate with secondaries, as opposed being half asleep trying to judge the lead I should give a ship. Is it even worth going up or should bail on these ships?

 

Sail on!

 Bizmark 2ndary build, non manual secondaries....

Within 10 km firing on ships on both sides....

 

Gneis torping dds at 6 km....

 

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42 minutes ago, MCCIV said:

After long and extreme deliberation, I am considering abandoning my battleships. At tier 3 and 4 there is no other ship I would rather be in, but at tier 5 (with +2 mm coming into play) I have noticed that all each game is is blasting people over 15km away, missing, and waiting 30 seconds to do it again. Looking at youtubes of tier 8-10 games it is ALL at extreme ranges. I quite miss going ham on 3 cruisers at once <10 km in my Nassau. 

Is BB gameplay just basically sniping or is there a lot more close ranged stuff that I am missing out on? I would much rather be in a knife fight where I have to plan my turns, time my reloads, and spray hate with secondaries, as opposed being half asleep trying to judge the lead I should give a ship. Is it even worth going up or should bail on these ships?

 

Sail on!

Don't believe the lies....

I do plenty of brawling in my high tier battleships.  I have a great time and do pretty well.   Both my Missouri and Montana are specced out for secondaries.   As mentioned, the German battleships make great brawlers through tier 8.

The key to understand is that brawling is not just a matter of charging in close and slugging it out.   You have to know where, and especially WHEN to push in close.

Done right, your push can be decisive in winning the game.  Done wrong it gets you dead in a hurry.  Plus you need to know how to maneuver, how to multitask against surface, torpedo, and air threats simultaneously, while also controlling your secondaries.  And you need to learn how to anticipate.  So your guns and ship are pointed in the right direction, at the right time.

Its hard.  It takes lots of practice.  Sometimes you'll screw up (a lot at first).  But once you get the hang of it, there is nothing in the game so satisfying as feeling like an unstoppable angel of destruction as you obliterate your enemies at point blank range.  It makes it all worth it.   Sometimes it all clicks.  I've gotten a kraken plus double-strike in back to back games before.  It was awesome.

So yes.  If you want you can hang back, hide behind islands, shoot at extreme range, and farm damage.  But it's a terrible and boring way to play.

Or you can start the long climb of developing the skills necessary to brawl effectively.  It's a tough but rewarding path.  But when you start hunting down destroyers in your battleship and killing them at close range, it's so satisfying.   Personally, I love torping a destroyer with a battleship.  When you pull that off, the irony, and tears, are delicious.

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I play mostly Cruisers all tier about 6 months ago I bought the Tirpitz just to see what the BB fuss high tier was all about... fun boat ,now have a 19 point Captain in her set up for secondaries to about 11k,I never stop and snipe and always looking for opportunity’s to use my Torps cause it’s amazing how many B.B. players forget I have em

tried BBs low tier, to slow.. so it does get better 

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MCCIV, with the amount of battles you've had you are what I'd say is like going from Junior High to Freshman. I do not mean that in any bad way I assure you. They can be real frustrating because you got DDs like mosquitos constantly attacking you that are freaking invisible sending torps up your chute. You got cruiser captains out there that throw HE lava all over you. CVs with planes that send torps through mountains at 1/2 km and splash your crap.

   You know what you got? Big azz guns, secondaries, healing power, armor and fear factor. Just takes a while to learn how to use those assets. Chose your modules and captain skills to match your style of play. Watch the map, support when needed, get a cruiser in chat for aa support, leave yourself an escape route, never yolo unless it's a last ditch effort. Above all is stay alive. A dead hero BB is worthless.

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

2) Ships service costs become very high, so people are more afraid to lose their ship, only barely realising that with a flat service fee per match, dying or surviving doesn't change the per-match cost.

True, but living longer to do more damage nets you more credits, offsetting the higher service costs...

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Also, don't fear other BBs at any tier. Angle in take your shot and maneuver. Never ever sail straight. Constantly change speeds. Don't blow off the Cleveland Captains. Anyone who sails a tier 6 cruise into battle with no torps has serious sack and most know their stuff. All Russian cruisers are wicked fast.

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Playing high tier battleship is going to cost you so much that you would be inclined to buy perma camo or go premium.

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33 minutes ago, zuga_01 said:

Playing high tier battleship is going to cost you so much that you would be inclined to buy perma camo or go premium.

Or save up your free XP for a Missouri and you will never go hungry again!  :Smile_coin:

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I stopped playing BBs at all levels, with the exception of Scharnhorst, a few months ago. I find the BB gameplay to be boring. Including MegaCruiser Scharnhorst, I only play Cruisers now.

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You aren't above T5. Your most played BB at that tier is NY, which is the worst BB at that tier, not only in terms of overall performance but also gun-wise. It's just crap. 

I would drop the US line, which, despite what people say, is objectively the worst BB line in the game until T8 and the N Carolina. You need to know how to play a BB to make the NY, N Mex, and Colorado work, and even then you will do much better in one of the other lines for the same amount of effort. Come back to NY when you know what you are doing.

If you want to stay in BBs, switch to the IJN. Continue up with Fuso, one of the best tech tree BBs in the game relative to its tier. Of the remaining IJN BBs only Izumo is really not very good. Amagi and Nagato have brutal guns, and the devs have made the Yammy into a fantasy ship that rules the waves. Once you learn to brawl in a Fuso you can do it in any BB, and outduel anyone.

If you just want to battleship, just play the Germans. They can't be cit, deal out secondary spam like nobody's business, and are the easiest BBs to do well in until you reach the Freddie, which has widely divergent player experiences because of its godawful/glorious guns. 

Also, I strongly recommend you play many games in coop in a BB. Battling bot BBs can really teach you how to hide your side when you brawl, and also teach you to be patient and wait for red to give you his side. The training room is also good for practicing. If you see I am online, I will be happy to practice with you in the training room for a few games. Love BBing, no matter where it is. 

However, if you really want to learn how to battleship, I'd drop BBs entirely. First, go up the IJN DD line. 100 games in Wakatake and Minekaze will teach you more about positioning, situation awareness, and winning than 1000 games in any BB. 

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I would say it's more the complete unreliability of battleships that forces ranged fights but then the destroyer mains would cry about something being capable within 5km other than them. 

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At 246 matches OP, you quite haven't grasped gunnery much less experienced how the guns behave for BBs as you go up in the tiers.

IT GETS EASIER.

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I found the "sniper meta" Very exaggerated, yes, high tier meta is passive, but players make it look worse than actually is.

 

The two main reasons to the passive meta:

1- too much punishment, its easy to punish agressive plays, not even battleships are much tanky at high tiers. Offensive capability is much stronger than the defensive capability.

 

2 - lack of team play, team coordination and team comunication. There is little comunication and coordination, most of the times is just "go easy/west" or "ab/bc", more than that is very rare. Also, you cant trust on the guy next to you to back you up and cover you.

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9 hours ago, Lert said:

2) Ships service costs become very high, so people are more afraid to lose their ship, only barely realising that with a flat service fee per match, dying or surviving doesn't change the per-match cost.

Yes the ship cost os the same, dying or not. But if you for early you get few rewardes in both XP and credits. So no one wants to be the first one to die.

 

If you for early you are likely getting few credits and XP and also reduce the chance of winning the game. 

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3 hours ago, Taichunger said:

You aren't above T5. Your most played BB at that tier is NY, which is the worst BB at that tier, not only in terms of overall performance but also gun-wise. It's just crap. 

I would drop the US line, which, despite what people say, is objectively the worst BB line in the game until T8 and the N Carolina. You need to know how to play a BB to make the NY, N Mex, and Colorado work, and even then you will do much better in one of the other lines for the same amount of effort. Come back to NY when you know what you are doing.

If you want to stay in BBs, switch to the IJN. Continue up with Fuso, one of the best tech tree BBs in the game relative to its tier. Of the remaining IJN BBs only Izumo is really not very good. Amagi and Nagato have brutal guns, and the devs have made the Yammy into a fantasy ship that rules the waves. Once you learn to brawl in a Fuso you can do it in any BB, and outduel anyone.

If you just want to battleship, just play the Germans. They can't be cit, deal out secondary spam like nobody's business, and are the easiest BBs to do well in until you reach the Freddie, which has widely divergent player experiences because of its godawful/glorious guns. 

Also, I strongly recommend you play many games in coop in a BB. Battling bot BBs can really teach you how to hide your side when you brawl, and also teach you to be patient and wait for red to give you his side. The training room is also good for practicing. If you see I am online, I will be happy to practice with you in the training room for a few games. Love BBing, no matter where it is. 

However, if you really want to learn how to battleship, I'd drop BBs entirely. First, go up the IJN DD line. 100 games in Wakatake and Minekaze will teach you more about positioning, situation awareness, and winning than 1000 games in any BB. 

What?? I love my New York. Im not ever going to be purple, but I do ok in her and regardless always have a blast in her. My advice would be forget NY has that 5th turret and work her like you do NM (only squishier). Every now and then you get that opportunity to bring the 5th turret into action. Shes a good ship imo.

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11 hours ago, TheDreadnought said:

The key to understand is that brawling is not just a matter of charging in close and slugging it out.   You have to know where, and especially WHEN to push in close.

Done right, your push can be decisive in winning the game.  Done wrong it gets you dead in a hurry.  Plus you need to know how to maneuver, how to multitask against surface, torpedo, and air threats simultaneously, while also controlling your secondaries.  And you need to learn how to anticipate.  So your guns and ship are pointed in the right direction, at the right time.

Its hard.  It takes lots of practice.  Sometimes you'll screw up (a lot at first).  But once you get the hang of it, there is nothing in the game so satisfying as feeling like an unstoppable angel of destruction as you obliterate your enemies at point blank range.  It makes it all worth it.   Sometimes it all clicks.  I've gotten a kraken plus double-strike in back to back games before.  It was awesome.

So yes.  If you want you can hang back, hide behind islands, shoot at extreme range, and farm damage.  But it's a terrible and boring way to play.

Or you can start the long climb of developing the skills necessary to brawl effectively.  It's a tough but rewarding path.  But when you start hunting down destroyers in your battleship and killing them at close range, it's so satisfying.   Personally, I love torping a destroyer with a battleship.  When you pull that off, the irony, and tears, are delicious.

^^^This^^^

I can attest to everything Dreadnought says about brawling.

 

I can also add that the mid to long range BB fight can also be rewarding...in its own right as well as when looking for the when and where to make that decisive push.  As for the 30 second wait....that's a full salvo.  I often cycle my turrets.  A four turret ship can be putting rounds down range every seven seconds or so.  In fact, it's almost a necessary skill when shooting players at long range who know how to maneuver.  One turret on the track..observe the maneuver...another turret along the maneuver...observe...then another turret.  Nice think about mid to long range, especially against cruisers...is I get a lot of plunging cits. 

There are times I unload a full salvo.  But even with the 30 second wait, there is lots of thinking to do...positioning the ship....the turrets.  Mini-map SA. 

 

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16 hours ago, Lert said:

 

2) Ships service costs become very high, so people are more afraid to lose their ship, only barely realising that with a flat service fee per match, dying or surviving doesn't change the per-match cost.

I was just thinking about that. I wonder if maybe the rationale is that they are trying to stay alive until somebody shows them a nice broadside so they can score a whack of damage.

It kind of makes sense, I've had my share of games where I'm muddling along for most of the game, then a couple juicy targets appear, turning a 25k damage game into a 60k game in 3 minutes or less. Not that I try to do that, but maybe some do.

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2 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

I was just thinking about that. I wonder if maybe the rationale is that they are trying to stay alive until somebody shows them a nice broadside so they can score a whack of damage.

Yup. The problem is that they don't realize that you have to make your own opportunity, and it you're just sitting in the back all you'll get is the enemy's bow. Pushing in and forcing the enemy to react is how you get them to move. Ofcourse, that has other dangers and risks.

I don't like high tier meta.

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The difference between BBs at Tier 2 to 10 basically is a difference in increased accuracy, engagement ranges, Captain Skills, ship speed, longer rudder shifts, larger turning circles, harder hitting guns, and of course better opponents.

If you like to brawl, it certainly isn't absent at Tier 10, but attempting it in a Yamato is going to result in a bad time.

At upper Tiers players are more patient, and will challenge your mental ability to counter them and not expose yourself to hard hits.

To me upper tiers are enjoyable because of this challenge, and I don't enjoy lower Tiers because it's too easy to abuse the lack of knowledge of newer players. It doesn't make me feel accomplished.

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