Midway [edited]

[AiikonRho]

What the hell is up with Midway divebombers now? I'm in my Moskva, AA range increase, DFAA on and a Midway flies two squads of TBs around in my AA envelope for over a minute. I kill three planes then he 1 shots me from 80% health. This is ridiculously stupid.

[KaptainKaybe]

Those AP bombers are also VERY selective of what targets they can actually hurt. At tier 10, it's pretty much just Moskva, Des Moines, and so so on GK. Everything else just either overpens, or bounces much of it for just a few regular pens. They are MUCH weaker than you think. The cries of them being OP only comes from players playing those few ships. Everyone else just laughs when those bombs 'tickle' them.

[TornadoADV]

AP bombs and the Moskva as a Battlecruiser has enough deck armor to arm their fuses and gut your ship.

[AiikonRho]

Yeah I figured. I just hate that it's such a dice roll if it's going to be an issue or not. Sure if I changed my loadout and commander skills with even more AA I'd fare better, but it feels like I only get CVs when I take out Moskva and GK and never when I'm on my DM. 

[Goliath654]

Yea man if I see a Moskva with out DFAA  and im running AP bombs your gonna be a primary target, its just so easy to cita wreck it with those AP bombs.

[God_Stalker]

I was hit in a Bismarck by AP Bomb was at 80% health then zero took a second to figure out what just happened

[MrDeaf]

1 hour ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Those AP bombers are also VERY selective of what targets they can actually hurt. At tier 10, it's pretty much just Moskva, Des Moines, and so so on GK. Everything else just either overpens, or bounces much of it for just a few regular pens. They are MUCH weaker than you think. The cries of them being OP only comes from players playing those few ships. Everyone else just laughs when those bombs 'tickle' them.

It's so good to see that cruisers can't counterplay Midway again.

Zao and HIV are also prone.

In fact, the only two T10 cruisers that are safe from AP bombs are Hindenburg and Minotaur.

 

And then, when you go to look at which cruisers are most popular, it's the DM, so there is a sizable chunk of T10 cruisers that will be in the game that are just absolute fodder to Midway.

Oh, it's so good to see Hindenburg and Minotaur not get nerfed by Midway.

[KaptainKaybe]

Also remember that DM is also the heaviest AA in the game with DF (and still pretty nasty without). So Midway attacking DM is very much risk/reward. Sure, he can insta-blap a DM who's sailing bow on to the planes, but a good DM player specced for AA will also likely shred all those planes before they get a chance to drop.

[MrDeaf]

1 minute ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Also remember that DM is also the heaviest AA in the game with DF (and still pretty nasty without). So Midway attacking DM is very much risk/reward. Sure, he can insta-blap a DM who's sailing bow on to the planes, but a good DM player specced for AA will also likely shred all those planes before they get a chance to drop.

Midway has what... 100 planes in reserve.

If it can nuke a DM with 24 losses, it's still in the lead.

[KaptainKaybe]

Honestly, I just really hate how inconsistent AP bombs are. They either insta-frag ships, or do sweet frak all. Personally, I would drop the alpha by 25%, drop the minimum fuse, and increase the max penetration. All this to make the damage less extreme, but capable of working on all cruisers and nearly all BBs. AP bombs were created to give USN CVs more dependable heavy damage (since their HE bombs can practically miss islands, let alone ships), but what they created are these weapons where your success as a CV is 100% dependent on matchmaking. Queue up with Bismarcks, FdGs and Moskvas? Great! Queue up with Iowas, Montanas, and Minotaurs? Too bad, so sad.

At least Midway can still mess up ships with the twin TB squads, but Lexington and Essex (*especially* Essex since it's so called 'buff') are still completely outplayed by their IJN counterparts. And grinding through all those painful tiers just for Midway is pretty fraked.

[KaptainKaybe]

6 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Midway has what... 100 planes in reserve.

If it can nuke a DM with 24 losses, it's still in the lead.

The problem is not the reserves. It's the fact that USN CVs (among many MANY still existing balance issues) have atrocious reload time. So while it can certainly afford to lose planes, it'll be at least a couple of minutes before a new set of AP bombers are ready strike. Midway doesn't want to just throw away planes willy nilly either. Now, a good Midway player will try and bait out Defensive Fire and come back a minute later, but if the DM is smart, he'll wait until those bombers are within, say, 4km before popping it so that those planes won't be able to run away fast enough. Also remember that USN planes are very slow compared to IJN ones. Yes, yet again another balance issue.

Wargaming thinks that the USN CV changes helped in making them competitive. Instead, USN CVs just went from horribly wretchedly sucking to merely sucking a great deal. I think WG saw how crazy nasty they were in closed beta and resolved to never ever make USN CVs truly competitive with IJN ever again.

 

[AlcatrazNC]

2 hours ago, KaptainKaybe said:

The problem is not the reserves. It's the fact that USN CVs (among many MANY still existing balance issues) have atrocious reload time. So while it can certainly afford to lose planes, it'll be at least a couple of minutes before a new set of AP bombers are ready strike. Midway doesn't want to just throw away planes willy nilly either. Now, a good Midway player will try and bait out Defensive Fire and come back a minute later, but if the DM is smart, he'll wait until those bombers are within, say, 4km before popping it so that those planes won't be able to run away fast enough. Also remember that USN planes are very slow compared to IJN ones. Yes, yet again another balance issue.

Wargaming thinks that the USN CV changes helped in making them competitive. Instead, USN CVs just went from horribly wretchedly sucking to merely sucking a great deal. I think WG saw how crazy nasty they were in closed beta and resolved to never ever make USN CVs truly competitive with IJN ever again.

 

 

Well considering the amount of plane per squadron it makes sense they have a longer reload. Also US planes are more "tanky" than IJN planes and they can also bring a scary firepower in one strike.  When I play with my Ibuki, I can "easily" shoot down IJN planes with Def AA but if a US CV is after me, I'll barely scatter planes or even shoot down some plane with Def AA.

[KaptainKaybe]

30 minutes ago, AlcatrazNC said:

 

Well considering the amount of plane per squadron it makes sense they have a longer reload. Also US planes are more "tanky" than IJN planes and they can also bring a scary firepower in one strike.  When I play with my Ibuki, I can "easily" shoot down IJN planes with Def AA but if a US CV is after me, I'll barely scatter planes or even shoot down some plane with Def AA.

 

Honestly, I feel the whole tankiness thing is a bit of an illusion. Both carriers, assuming same tier planes, have roughly the same amount of HP on their planes . It's just that USN squads are larger, so it *feels* like you're shooting down less because the USN squad will last longer, even if you shot down an equal number of planes from both. And while I absolutely agree that USN squads should take longer to reload as the squads are larger, it apparently takes *significantly* longer than the 50% extra you'd expect given the squad sizes. And even after all that, the slowness of most USN planes means it takes even longer for them to get into the fight.

The only area where USN really shines are it's fighters because, while slower and less average DPS, they have more planes per squad, and hence have the combined DPM to quickly rip apart the smaller IJN squads ... unless IJN brings extra squads. Which is now a big problem as due to the fixed loadouts on USN CVs, IJN CV players can know exactly what to bring to have total air superiority over the USN players. It's especially bad  with Ranger and Lexington as they only ever have a single fighter squad, so the very popular 2/2/2 Hiryu and Shokaku loadout can completely dominate. It's only if the USN player continuously strafes that he can try and control that fight.

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Hakuryu

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Midway

[HazardDrake]

4 hours ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Also remember that DM is also the heaviest AA in the game with DF (and still pretty nasty without). So Midway attacking DM is very much risk/reward. Sure, he can insta-blap a DM who's sailing bow on to the planes, but a good DM player specced for AA will also likely shred all those planes before they get a chance to drop.

Nope. Midway will plow right through mine if it wants to.

 

Yes they take heavy losses, but they're still gonna get the drop away on me or whoever I am escorting.

[crzyhawk]

5 hours ago, MrDeaf said:

And then, when you go to look at which cruisers are most popular, it's the DM, so there is a sizable chunk of T10 cruisers that will be in the game that are just absolute fodder to Midway.

 

And CV drivers wonder why they are hated.  They want surface ship players to be meatshields and fodder, and they want to be loved for it.

[TheDreadnought]

I love carriers that blow up surface ships. . . so long as they don't target me.

[centarina]

and remember that they can feed on lower tier cruisers without worries, especially later in the match.         WG has proven time and time again they don't know jack about balancing CV. 

[AiikonRho]

I think a lot of the frustration is that a Midway can simply delete another ship. Sure it should be able to punish someone for being out of position or unlucky for not running a full AA build because they've been doing clan wars, but to simply reach out anywhere on the map and delete a ship regardless of cover? And take no losses in return? It's stupid.

[Hyyena]

if you choise this bombs you are strong vs some cruisers and some t8- bbs

but you dont gonna make high dmg vs the most of targers

its a trade~

btw is SO good for a carrier exterminate a des moines with ap bombs <3 its like a delicious revenge for his st**id AA.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

14 hours ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Those AP bombers are also VERY selective of what targets they can actually hurt. At tier 10, it's pretty much just Moskva, Des Moines, and so so on GK. Everything else just either overpens, or bounces much of it for just a few regular pens. They are MUCH weaker than you think. The cries of them being OP only comes from players playing those few ships. Everyone else just laughs when those bombs 'tickle' them.

[Laughs in Des Moines and Montana]

 

For the ships vulnerable to the AP DBs, Midway's dangerous.  It's basically an alpha strike CV and not the DOT-Time oriented Flood+Time+Fires based style with torps and HE DBs.  The CV will send the TBs & AP DBs at the same time.  The TBs all but guarantee that they will get focused so those Midway DBs come in completely clean.

 

Normal HE DB will come in later after the floods were landed by the TBs, after the Damage Control active time has gone away, then land fires on you once the protection period is gone.  Or vice versa.  Either way, you'll not like the effects 

[Reymu]

AP bombs are still easier to deal with than a cyclone putting you at a Taiho's mercy. I dropped an AA-specced Montana, Moskva, and Gearing all in one match when cyclone came in. Their raging was delicious.

Besides, CVs are this rare. Which means getting nuked by one is nothing to get excited nor angry about.

[centarina]

4 minutes ago, Reymu said:

AP bombs are still easier to deal with than a cyclone putting you at a Taiho's mercy. I dropped an AA-specced Montana, Moskva, and Gearing all in one match when cyclone came in. Their raging was delicious.

Besides, CVs are this rare. Which means getting nuked by one is nothing to get excited nor angry about.

we are going to stay angry until they nerf CV to balance with everything else .  you should be getting use to it. 

[mofton]

19 minutes ago, Reymu said:

Besides, CVs are this rare. Which means removing the few remaining masochists is nothing to get excited nor angry about.

FTFY

[Hyyena]

38 minutes ago, centarina said:

we are going to stay angry until they nerf CV to balance with everything else .  you should be getting use to it. 

wanna know why thats not gonna happens?

Because if they nerf the cvs even more people go stop playing again~ them they gonna need buff the cvs again (like what the did with midway)~

[WES_HoundDog]

CV's hurt the game more than help it.  Why do they need to be in the game?  It's a poor business decision to work on them.