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MutsuKaiNi

Alright time to nerf Monty

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Seriously this ship needs the nerf hammer, its too accurate, its citadel is virtually impossible to hit at anything but point blank, its too stealthy, the Monty needs a nerf. Just give it back its old raised citadel and we can call it fair, because right now its only Yamato that has to suffer while every other BB can just flash their side all day without worry.

However, Kurrywurst is as big as long as a skyscraper and has wonky guns, Conq while hard to cit eats pen damage for days, and Yamato gets the worst of it all since its vaunted accuracy is now taken by Monty and Monty gets an extra set of guns plus the raised cit. Just return Monty's cit to the way it was and maybe reduce its accuracy, seriously nerf this ship already.

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You conveniently left out the yamatos overmatch of doom. I still get cits on broadside monties it just isn't an Insta delete from full health.

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The lolpen is highly overrated and rarely if ever happens, a Moskva can bounce yammie shells if it sits bow on, I've seen it happen far too often.

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Moskva has the sort of Russian bias where a design feature conveniently works out amazingly well in-game hence anything will bounce off parts of its bow.

 

But no, Montana isn't overpowered. God forbid a USN battleship not be last in the rankings...

 

 

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Some battleships could use a buff, others could use a nerf, but I believe that Montana is the healthiest, as in terms of gameplay, of all the tier X battleships as for now. She has good accuracy and sigma to reward careful positioning over long range, decent concealment and dynamics for good positioning, and citadel schemes that can be exploited but should excuse a few mistakes.

 

Yamato I believe could use a buff, without nerfing the other battleships like raising their citadels.

3 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

You conveniently left out the yamatos overmatch of doom. I still get cits on broadside monties it just isn't an Insta delete from full health.

To be quite honest it was no longer something that can be depended upon after Montana received her 38mm hull and deck armor. Unless a Montana is locked bow on for whatever reason under 15km I don't see the lolpen kicking in quite as often as I think it should. My opinion is that Yamato needs a turret traverse+sigma buff to make her a little more versatile and reliable when played the way WG envisioned IJN battleships to do: long range engagements. Otherwise, I call for a significant penetration buff, so Yamato captains can make intelligent choices when facing enemies: do I reliably knock out the enemy's turrets, or try my luck in hitting the bow?

 

Kurfurst is very awkward. Her dispersion makes it quite frustrating, and her awful dynamics and turret angles make her ergonomics absolutely terrible. She was the pinnacle of the German "brawling" battleship branch, but ironically because of these almost intentionally designed hindrances, like HUUUGE superstructures that eats penetrations consistently, large flat thin turret faces, "dafaq were the designers thinking" turret angles and the "I don't really turn" attitude, she's better off trying to find the sweet spot mid range engagements. Aside from the ballistics, Kurfurst's shells have every single flaw a battleship can have: bad normalization, arcs too flat too much overpen, and poor penetration. I believe Kurfurst should get a turret angle buff for starters to allow her to actually occupy her intended niche.

 

F*ck Conqueror. Nobody cares about you, get nerfed into the ground and your WR with you, yer Piece of Bloody Sh(the following 30mintutes of rant has been censored)

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26 minutes ago, MutsuKaiNi said:

Seriously this ship needs the nerf hammer, its too accurate, its citadel is virtually impossible to hit at anything but point blank, its too stealthy, the Monty needs a nerf. Just give it back its old raised citadel and we can call it fair, because right now its only Yamato that has to suffer while every other BB can just flash their side all day without worry.

No it doesn't.  How soon we forget the days when everything was dev striking Iowas and Montanas left and right, mostly at the hands of Yamatos as they laughed their way back to port.  I'm sorry Yamato had its heyday and is still a very capable ship.

3 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

"dafaq were the designers thinking"

They weren't because the ship was never designed to begin with.  Paper ship.

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18 minutes ago, MutsuKaiNi said:

The lolpen is highly overrated and rarely if ever happens, a Moskva can bounce yammie shells if it sits bow on, I've seen it happen far too often.

Moskva doesnt bounce Yamato AP bow on, Moskva only bounces the shells on its belt armor... Moskva is overmatched by anything 16in or higher on the bow.

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11 minutes ago, knice_destroyer said:

No it doesn't.  How soon we forget the days when everything was dev striking Iowas and Montanas left and right, mostly at the hands of Yamatos as they laughed their way back to port.  I'm sorry Yamato had its heyday and is still a very capable ship.

Of course, Yamato is capable, it is a tier X battleship after all. But is she as capable as she probably should be?

Spoiler

5a308e8d33c69_ScreenShot2017-12-12at21_19_09.thumb.png.b98674b02aeae813fbe73c9fdaae4f31.png

                                                                           lol NA sample size. WoWs dead game lolololololol

5a308e92541ce_ScreenShot2017-12-12at21_19_23.thumb.png.5e41eefc10b15c7286d2775779b8c825.png

Xaxaxa dead in Russia too )))))))))

5a308e9724c27_ScreenShot2017-12-12at21_19_35.thumb.png.2f3954b3adafa65e9e0af1d2030675f3.png

5a308e9bcafee_ScreenShot2017-12-12at21_19_45.thumb.png.d03a61ce486877b1d5e739634ec8a22f.png

I love Asians. They hardly ever play Conqueror

Perhaps? Seems to me she probably do.

11 minutes ago, knice_destroyer said:

They weren't because the ship was never designed to begin with.  Paper ship.

Remind me from whom we got the papers for your paper ships?

Oh, that's right. Designers.

It's just an expression dude.

Edited by The_first_harbinger

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Just now, MutsuKaiNi said:

Typical Murica fanboi, why did I expect otherwise.

Typical weeb wanting your spacebattleship yamato to lolpen everything that moves without getting rekt yourself, heard it many times before guy.  I'm sorry but you took it there with your "typical murica fanboi" comment. So I leave you with this.Image result for muh triggers

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1 minute ago, knice_destroyer said:

Typical weeb wanting your spacebattleship yamato to lolpen everything that moves without getting rekt yourself, heard it many times before guy.  I'm sorry but you took it there with your "typical murica fanboi" comment. So I leave you with this.Image result for muh triggers

No I want all the T10 BBs to be balanced and have their advantages and disadvantages, and right now Monty has too many advantages and Yammie too many disadvantages, Kurrywurst is generally okay with its balance, and as for the other one, I just won't mention it.

But no we can't touch 'mah freedom botes because 'Merica #1, Merica win war by it self'

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10 minutes ago, knice_destroyer said:

Typical weeb wanting your spacebattleship yamato to lolpen everything that moves without getting rekt yourself, heard it many times before guy.  I'm sorry but you took it there with your "typical murica fanboi" comment. So I leave you with this.

4

You don't have to be a weeb to be fond of the Yamato. It is the biggest (by displacement) Battleship ever constructed, the flagship of the once mighty IJN combined fleet, the flagship of Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, the vessel for the biggest piece of naval artillery ever, and her destruction marked the end of an old era of naval doctrine and the beginning of the carrier supremacy that lasts to this day. 

 

Fun fact (jk), Yamato's also the only tier X battleship in the game that actually sailed, seeing that paper ships don't really strike the correct cords in you.

Edited by The_first_harbinger
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Nerf Monty? 

 

HMS Monty Python is in the game you say? 

 

finally!!!!

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Montana didn't need a lowered citadel. I often see people saying how weak Montana is compared to other BB but it is not. Since WG lowered the citadel of Montana and Iowa, It became really tricky to citadel them as a cruiser. It is possible but really hard. I think I managed to citadel a Montana only once with Henri and I still don't know how i did this. Anyway the thing to citadel them is to stay at mid-long range. At close range it's almost impossible to citadel them but they still eat heavy damage 

 

I'm expecting WG to do the same with cruiser, I don't know why BB should be the only class with underwater cit. 

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14 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

You don't have to be a weeb to be fond of the Yamato. It is the biggest (by displacement) Battleship ever constructed, the flagship of the once mighty IJN combined fleet, the flagship of Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, the vessel for the biggest piece of naval artillery ever, and her destruction marked the end of an old era of naval doctrine and the beginning of the carrier supremacy that lasts to this day. 

 

Fun fact (jk), Yamato's also the only tier X battleship in the game that actually sailed, seeing that paper ships don't really strike the correct cords in you.

Irrelevant, Fire control and more makes up more than the difference than the 18 inch guns. FACT, the Montana would have better fire control, access to a better fire control computer etc. The Yammi would have been toast one on one and that is from a weeb. 

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1 hour ago, MutsuKaiNi said:

Seriously this ship needs the nerf hammer, its too accurate, its citadel is virtually impossible to hit at anything but point blank, its too stealthy, the Monty needs a nerf. Just give it back its old raised citadel and we can call it fair, because right now its only Yamato that has to suffer while every other BB can just flash their side all day without worry.

However, Kurrywurst is as big as long as a skyscraper and has wonky guns, Conq while hard to cit eats pen damage for days, and Yamato gets the worst of it all since its vaunted accuracy is now taken by Monty and Monty gets an extra set of guns plus the raised cit. Just return Monty's cit to the way it was and maybe reduce its accuracy, seriously nerf this ship already.

Leave my Montana alone! Yamato and Conqueror already have her number!

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1 minute ago, Atomicfireball said:

Irrelevant, Fire control and more makes up more than the difference than the 18 inch guns. FACT, the Montana would have better fire control, access to a better fire control computer etc. The Yammi would have been toast one on one and that is from a weeb. 

All I have stated was to support that "You don't have to be a weeb to be fond of the Yamato.". Who the heck ever mentioned combat capability?

Besides, simply stating that 

2 minutes ago, Atomicfireball said:

The Yammi would have been toast one on one

 

serves no purpose but to make you sound like a special pitchfork snowflake that firmly believes that all US warships can penetrate the earth's crust, snipe a fly on the horizon, and survive falling into a quasar. Yes, I'm not denying that the late-war US fire control computers are superior to the IJN electromagnetic calculators, but in a broad daylight fight, Yamato is more than capable of getting her mighty firetruck launchers on target, project and correct relatively accurate salvos, and hitting the lucky shot she needs to get Montana "hooded".

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1 hour ago, RipNuN2 said:

You conveniently left out the yamatos overmatch of doom. I still get cits on broadside monties it just isn't an Insta delete from full health.

You conveniently left out Yamato's massive citadel. And to be fair the overmatching rarely nets it that much extra damage, it's a nice plus but it isn't nearly the main attraction. 

 

Unlike OP I don't think the Monty needs the old citadel, I think it should be raised a bit, maybe to a third or half of what it was. But right now it is bull that Yamato's are the only battleships in their tier that needs to worry about citadels. 

 

Also, the 18" cannons only do a little under 2000 extra damage compared to the second best tier X gun (not counting Brit 18"), the extra penetration means nothing when you can't hit citadels and it doesn't help against cruisers because a regular 16" cannon can pen any cruiser. So all you get for a raised citadel is a fraction of a bit more damage (which means little when everyone else has three more rifles) and a bit more pen which is meaningless when you can't reliably hit the citadel. 

 

The reality is that if no other tier X battleship needs to worry about citadels then why should Yamato's? 

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18 minutes ago, 1An0maly1 said:

You conveniently left out Yamato's massive citadel. And to be fair the overmatching rarely nets it that much extra damage, it's a nice plus but it isn't nearly the main attraction. 

 

Unlike OP I don't think the Monty needs the old citadel, I think it should be raised a bit, maybe to a third or half of what it was. But right now it is bull that Yamato's are the only battleships in their tier that needs to worry about citadels. 

 

Also, the 18" cannons only do a little under 2000 extra damage compared to the second best tier X gun (not counting Brit 18"), the extra penetration means nothing when you can't hit citadels and it doesn't help against cruisers because a regular 16" cannon can pen any cruiser. So all you get for a raised citadel is a fraction of a bit more damage (which means little when everyone else has three more rifles) and a bit more pen which is meaningless when you can't reliably hit the citadel. 

 

The reality is that if no other tier X battleship needs to worry about citadels then why should Yamato's? 

 

The citadel was already covered in the OP. Yamato still has the most accurate BB guns along with the overmatch.

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3 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

 

The citadel was already covered in the OP. Yamato still has the most accurate BB guns along with the overmatch.

 

Lets break this down. Yamato has three fewer barrels, this makes the marginally superior accuracy a bit of a moot point and it is one reason Monty is the preferred sniper at distance especially in competitive clan wars. The three additional barrels gives the other battleships three more opportunities (33% more) to hit the target. Yamato's dispersion is good by and large to help it against that crippling limitation.

 

Overmatch really only stops enemy ships from being entirely invulnerable in bow on conditions. But the reality is that even at modest 8 km ranges there is enough dispersion that usually only one or two shells hit the bow. That adds up to I think 8-9k damage, maybe a citadel if the Yamato is lucky. That's a very small advantage there that gets overcome by either kurfurst secondaries or conqueror fires. 

 

Overmatch is nice, don't get me wrong. But it is not NEARLY nice enough to justify a glacial citadel. Personally I'm fine leaving Monty and the others alone if they lower Yamato's citadel to make it fair.

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44 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

All I have stated was to support that "You don't have to be a weeb to be fond of the Yamato.". Who the heck ever mentioned combat capability?

Besides, simply stating that 

serves no purpose but to make you sound like a special pitchfork snowflake that firmly believes that all US warships can penetrate the earth's crust, snipe a fly on the horizon, and survive falling into a quasar. Yes, I'm not denying that the late-war US fire control computers are superior to the IJN electromagnetic calculators, but in a broad daylight fight, Yamato is more than capable of getting her mighty firetruck launchers on target, project and correct relatively accurate salvos, and hitting the lucky shot she needs to get Montana "hooded".

Negative ghost rider. Even in day light the fire control makes a huge difference and the Monty would be able to reliably hit from range before the Yammi could zero the Monty.  I am not a snowflake who believes the USN walks on water but ship to ship the capabilities of the late war USN ships outclassed the IJN by a significant margin. Remember, crew quality and command quality were diminishing on the IJN side. 

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While I love my Yamato to death (and I haven't played the Montana at all), the overmatch is indeed overrated. I mean, it's a nice bonus, and I definitely made use of it, but it's the kinda of thing that is only really useful against bow in targets that aren't the GK, while the Conqueror can go over 100mm of armor with HE regardless of angling.

 

And honestly, we need to stop with the citadel removal from battleships. Seriously, I'm a BB main, and I don't get why BBs need a ship ton of armor if they basically don't even have citadels anymore, while cruisers cannot have neither good armor nor hard to hit citadels.

 

I just wish I could say all BBs required just as much skill as DDs and especially cruisers. But I can't, not with a straight face at least.

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11 minutes ago, Atomicfireball said:

Negative ghost rider. Even in day light the fire control makes a huge difference and the Monty would be able to reliably hit from range before the Yammi could zero the Monty.  I am not a snowflake who believes the USN walks on water but ship to ship the capabilities of the late war USN ships outclassed the IJN by a significant margin. Remember, crew quality and command quality were diminishing on the IJN side. 

I'm going to do a copy paste job from a previous thread I wrote in on for the Iowa vs. Yamato. 

 

Quote

They do actually.

 

American steelworking was second to none, our material science was exemplary for many reasons including the massive steelworking companies looking to get a leg up on each other, iron reserves that weren't poisoned by carbon or sulfur (the former being a trademark of Japanese steel, the later of Chinese). To this day our metal working is excellent to the point where many of the companies targeted by Chinese hacks are foundries and forges (ie. ALCOA). 

The US had so much good steel that practically every parts of the ship, from thick citadel to thin walls in the mess were made from the some form of armor class steel. Most countries used their best steel in the armor and decent steel everywhere else since they didn't have the benefit of massive steel mills that could churn out so much. 

To quote the US armor analysis post war on the turret face originally meant for pre-converted Shinano:

  Quote

Steel had many tiny pieces of dirt and so forth, being about the same as pre-WWI British Vickers Cemented (VC) KC-type armor steel in quality (VC was used for the first time in the Japanese battleship IJN KONGO, built in Britain, and manufactured in Japan under license thereafter), from which the unique Japanese armors New Vickers Non-Cemented (NVNC), the homogeneous, ductile form of VH used in a number of Japanese post-WWI warships, and VH itself was derived (this steel was not up to U.S., British, or German post-1930 steel quality). Carbon content was raised above VC steel level to increase ease of hardening, some copper added to allow some nickel (in short supply in Japan) to be removed (but not much), slight amount of molybdenum added to increase hardenability still more, and the cemented (carburized) thin surface layer used in VC (and in most other, foreign face-hardened armors) was eliminated with no loss of resistance from VC quality (a good design point). Surface of plate face was very smooth, unlike rough, pebbly surface of cemented plates, such as U.S. Navy Class "A" armor.

(source: http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-040.htm)

 

Yamato may have had thicker armor, but that armor metallurgic-ally was going off technology decades old. What plated the Iowa was far and away superior. 

 

These metallurgical advances carried over to shells. Ask the question: why didn't any other country have super heavy shells? In fact several countries tried it, it's not very hard to make a shell heavy. The problem is those shells impacted with so much force that their heat treated tips would distort and become ineffective if the shell hit at an angle. US engineers created a new heat treatment that kept the AP cap stable at more severe angles of impact which was the driving technological change that made the super heavy shell possible. The US 16" shell had the best chances of not just damaging Yamato through her belt or her deck but through those monstrous turret faces. The following image is of a test at 1900 ft/s (16" out of barrel velocity is 2500 ft/s), granted this is at 0 degree obliquity. I will note that in direct fire the velocity of the shell is dominate in penetration, it's in indirect plunging fire that mass plays heavily. I can't recall the source but supposedly the British 14" AP (which was an excellent shell and it kills me that Brit BB's are HE ships) supposedly had similar penetration to the larger American 16". At 2600 ft/s Yamato's main battery only had a 3.8% increase in shell velocity out the barrel. The 18" rifles' vaunted penetration is actually only marginal at direct fire where velocity, not mass, matters.

Image result for US 16" guns vs. Yamato armor

 

Yamato's turret faces were at 45 degrees, so odds are the 16" could not have punched through the turret face...on the first shot. Odds are the shell will easily crack or distort the turret face, jamming the guns. For how vaunted the thickness of Yamato's armor is, the reality is the metallurgical quality was far and away inferior to any modern battleship, and possibly inferior to any active service battleship in the US inventory. The only reason Yamato even has a stake in this fight is because it has those 18" rifles, if those were hypothetically 16" rifles few would doubt that the red sun would sink below the waves. 

 

US naval design also made an interesting assumption many other nations did not. That their ships would get hit AND that they would take damage. Look at Yorktown, hit by a bomb at Coral Sea her crewmen rapidly put out the flames and patched the flight deck and flight operations resumed shortly. On her trip to Midway her crewmen continued her repairs underway. Lexington herself nearly survived two torpedo hits and three bomb hits, bringing fires under control, and correcting her list from flood. Alas gasoline vapors ignited and tore her apart. Contrast this to the Yamato class where the torpedo bulge was defective (where Shinano was capsized by the lucky Archerfish). Or contrast this to Taiho where the crew essentially ignored the pooling aircraft fuel until it detonated and tore the hangar in two. 

 

I'm sure the advantage of US radar and fire control has been vaunted enough in these arguments. If there is any doubt as to the benefit of radar at night, consider that the USS Washington was able to sneak up to Kirishima to within 8 km (while Kirishima was focused on South Dakota) and unloaded multiple broadsides into the enemy hull.

 

There were two instances of battleship duels in the Pacific war. In both cases the radars gave Americans the first knowledge of the enemy's whereabouts and in the first case allowed the US battleship to sneak to point blank ranges, and in the second allowed the US battleships to fire first and keep firing before the enemy ships even had bearings on target. Knowledge is power and radar brings that knowledge. 

 

Lastly we get to speed. Iowa WAS FAST. At 33 knots (and I think in emergency they hit 35.4) Iowa gets the first say in where the battle happens and when it happens. Which means Iowa is going to pick night time every time it can and when that happens Yamato has no chance. With radar range finding that is accurate enough to detect the splashes of missed shells Iowa is probably going to get the first hit. And more often then not in naval warfare, the first hit often determines who wins. US guns also benefited from stabilization which enabled them to remain steady in choppy waves and maneuvering. 

 

To sum up, Yamato's famed armor thickest at the turret faces can be damaged by the 16" shells which bodes ill for the belt which is almost 30% thinner, or the deck. With radar and fire control systems that enabled gun laying to remain stable in choppy waves and maneuvering the US gets the first shot, it gets the most accuracy. And if those shells are dangerous to Yamato at range, then the battle is done. The worse the weather is and the darker the skies the greater the benefit Iowa achieves. 

 

One thing I know less about is the metallurgy of the Yamato's shells. The Japanese believed in the pipe dream of: "Diving shells", when a shell hits water it tends to bend upwards, underwater belt tends to be weak and in extraordinarily controlled circumstances they were able to reproduce this. They aimed to hit the water just in front of the belt and for the shells to penetrate the belt underwater. It led to longer fuses on ships (which allowed a US destroyer to shrug off direct impacts from a battleship AP shells since their fuses were goofy long). This pipe dream came at the cost of penetration through metallurgical advances. I suspect that when push comes to shove, the reality is that Yamato's shells really would not have been more effective then the 16" superheavy shells. One represented the baseline for what is probably worst 18" shell possible, the other the absolute high end of the best 16" shell possible. 

 

In my opinion if another 18" rifle'd ship were built by anyone else that battleship would have been superior. The Yamato was built with armor older then her crew, using techniques that are ancient, with shells that don't perform as intended and damage control that would have been the laughingstock of the USN. The only technological achievement of Yamato in my opinion is the bulbous bow and the swoop of the bow that improved structural stiffness. Both were very clever. 

 

The soft stats play HEAVILY in Iowa's favor. I've heard supposedly that Yamato still used voice tubes for inter ship communication but I've been too lazy to confirm it (finals week and all that).

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14 minutes ago, 1An0maly1 said:

I'm going to do a copy paste job from a previous thread I wrote in on for the Iowa vs. Yamato. 

 

 

The soft stats play HEAVILY in Iowa's favor. I've heard supposedly that Yamato still used voice tubes for inter ship communication but I've been too lazy to confirm it (finals week and all that).

Well said, I was just saying that to a friend. 

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