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TheDreadnought

What Duke of York's final stats need to look like --- answers inside!

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29 sec reload - as per current

Reduced Hydro - as per current

 

Warspite Heal

Base secondary range of 5.5km

14.7 sec rudder shift

Sigma 1.9

 

There you have it.   A tier 7 brawler in the tradition of Warspite. 

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7 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

29 sec reload - as per current

Reduced Hydro - as per current

 

Warspite Heal

Base secondary range of 5.5km

14.7 sec rudder shift

Sigma 1.9

 

There you have it.   A tier 7 brawler in the tradition of Warspite. 

 

I'd jump at that.

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I'd prefer to see the reload dropped to something like 27 seconds, but whatever. Yes - I think most people who have an interest in British BBs would buy an up-tiered Warspite.

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Drop the reload to 25s, but up the traverse to 55s or 72s. Keep (or add back) AADF and Hydro, and the rest of its cruiser level stealth and rudder shift.

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Personally, I would have been happy had they kept the original stats, upped her burn time to 45 seconds and given her the option to replace DFAA with one charge of super heal, or two charges of regular heal. 

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She'll never be a brawler with that 25mm bow and 51mm transverse bulkhead -- not at tier 7.  Ironically, she'd be okay at tier 6 and amazing at tier 8.

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7 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

She'll never be a brawler with that 25mm bow and 51mm transverse bulkhead -- not at tier 7.  Ironically, she'd be okay at tier 6 and amazing at tier 8.

 

I actually considered offering a suggestion for a Tier 8 version of her.   I thought that might be one too many cans of worms.

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15 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

I actually considered offering a suggestion for a Tier 8 version of her.   I thought that might be one too many cans of worms.

 

T8 version with 12x 14" guns. The original design plan. Just 55s traverse, 28s reload, and normal HE/AP shells instead of having RNHE, RNAP, and near cruiser-level concealment. Buffed rudder shift can stay or go. I say it goes in favor of the strong armor.

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26 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Ironically, she'd be okay at tier 6

That's what I said in the other thread. She makes sense, right now, with a little nerf to the reload (Solid 30 seconds to put her in line with T6 mates), and a slight nerf to the secondaries, and a little taller cit, as a T6. Other than speed. She's a bit speedy for T6 although that said, no one has a problem with a 30 knot BB at T5 so it's not *that* big of a deal to have a 28 knot one at T6. I mean beyond the speed, HE performance, and shorter AP Fuze, what else does the current devblog version have over say a NM or a Fuso? Thicker belt sure but armor in this game counts for squat anyway.

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While I like this suggestion more than the current offering, I've never liked KGV in anything like a brawl.

The armor scheme at T7 doesn't work for it, the secondaries... even with this range improvement, nope, the X turret angles... garbage. The AP for rapid damage... far from the best. TDS... not amazing. Brawling also gives up your good DoT ability and doesn't make use of your stealth.

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22 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

That's what I said in the other thread. She makes sense, right now, with a little nerf to the reload (Solid 30 seconds to put her in line with T6 mates), and a slight nerf to the secondaries, and a little taller cit, as a T6. Other than speed. She's a bit speedy for T6 although that said, no one has a problem with a 30 knot BB at T5 so it's not *that* big of a deal to have a 28 knot one at T6. I mean beyond the speed, HE performance, and shorter AP Fuze, what else does the current devblog version have over say a NM or a Fuso? Thicker belt sure but armor in this game counts for squat anyway.

The belt armour could be made less of an issue by artificially raising the citadel for "balance" reasons.

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Just now, LittleWhiteMouse said:

The belt armour could be made less of an issue by artificially raising the citadel for "balance" reasons.

I said that, "a little taller cit."

I mean it's 'new' for a T6, but that said, the Kongo as implemented is in a 1930's form. And the Dunk was launched in 1937. So maybe it's time to consider a downtiering. Makes even more sense if the intention is to give it away for free as part of a campaign as T6 is kinda the "Free" tier anyway.

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Dropping her to Tier VI would help to alleviate some of the clutter than the RN has at Tier VII, and follows the trend set by the Bismarck and Hood for German BBs being higher tier than their historical UK rivals (in this case Duke of York and Scharnhorst). I actually like that idea. 

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What they are rolling her out as now is utter garbage.  Drop the DFAA.  Give it an increased chance (not to set fire) but to damage modules like it did in real life.  Otherwise the guns should be kept similar to KGV.   Then give it a single Nelson-like super heal charge (single use).  With premium consumables and Superintendent it could get up to three max and would be similar to the Kutuzov and smoke.  Lastly, by making it this configuration it retains its BB dynamic, threatens Scharnhorst as it historically did, and makes a helluva lot more sense than giving it more anti air...get original WG. 

 

The sad state this ship is in currently makes me want to choke.  One of the few BB on BB fights in WWII and WG finds away to trash the concept.

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27 minutes ago, KongoPride said:

Give it an increased chance (not to set fire) but to damage modules like it did in real life.  Otherwise the guns should be kept similar to KGV. 

Not a bad idea actually. IIRC the HE shell blast radius, while not applying to HP damage, does apply to module damage (which is why, I assume, a hit to say the bow on a small low tier DD can result in an engine shutdown). Perhaps giving DoY HE shells insanely large Blast Radius could prove interesting. No more damaging than anything else, but a great BB support ship to use in tandem with say a CV or CA's  looking to close in on a dangerous close range foe. Likewise could be an interesting anti-DD ship, when combined with Sonar, to quickly render the tubes destroyed/incapacitated.

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2 hours ago, SkaerKrow said:

Dropping her to Tier VI would help to alleviate some of the clutter than the RN has at Tier VII, and follows the trend set by the Bismarck and Hood for German BBs being higher tier than their historical UK rivals (in this case Duke of York and Scharnhorst). I actually like that idea. 

What?  That's absurd.

 

Hood is lower Tier than Bismarck because she was older and not as capable.

 

In a straight up fight. one vs one, Duke of York would have crushed Scharnhorst or Scharnhorst would have fled.

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15 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

What?  That's absurd.

 

Hood is lower Tier than Bismarck because she was older and not as capable.

 

In a straight up fight. one vs one, Duke of York would have crushed Scharnhorst or Scharnhorst would have fled.

Really? And yet the King George V class is in the game at the same tier as the Scharnhorst class, and the discussion is about the merits of including the Duke of York as a tier VI ship instead of a tier VII. 

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Just now, SkaerKrow said:

Really? And yet the King George V class is in the game at the same tier as the Scharnhorst class, and the discussion is about the merits of including the Duke of York as a tier VI ship instead of a tier VII. 

Yes. because for balance reasons the game over favors smaller guns.  Something that boosts Scharnhorst above her historical capability.  There is no reasonable justification to put DoY at Tier VI.  Nothing about the KGV class suggests Tier VI is where they ought to be.

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Honestly what i'd like to see, (thinking minimum modification solution rather than the more complex stuff i proposed in @NoZoupForYou's thread on her):

 

Go back to initial test stats, then add a heal consumable, 3 charges standard 4 premium, this consumable has half the normal duration, but heals the same amount per second so half the normal amount per charge. But it has a much shorter cooldown, like 30 seconds for the standard and 20 for the premium. Think of it as the October Revolution version of healing, you don't get quite as much effect overall or in any given 30 second window, but you can burn your entire stock very very fast to get full use of it out the door. Then later on if balance says she needs it adjust her number of consumables upwards.

 

4 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

She'll never be a brawler with that 25mm bow and 51mm transverse bulkhead -- not at tier 7.  Ironically, she'd be okay at tier 6 and amazing at tier 8.

 

Forgetting the DoY for a moment and just talking of hypothetical future BC lines in general, (and assuming for the sake of argument that DoY was a testbed), i have to ask do you think it might help them be more aggressive in general if they got thicker than normal for tier extremity plating, say equivalent to a BB +2 tiers up with T9 and T10 getting say 40mm?

 

Lets be fair the idea that DoY would be less aggressive isn't a surprise, she gives up some BB durability for cruiser traits, and by their nature IMO cruisers are actually the most passive class overall, they just don't have the armour or HP to risk being aggressive as much so anything that blends a little cruiser in is going to be less aggressive, fixing that IMO either requires fixing the passivity of cruiser gameplay or doing somthing about it specific to the battlecruisers

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44 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

Yes. because for balance reasons the game over favors smaller guns.  Something that boosts Scharnhorst above her historical capability.  There is no reasonable justification to put DoY at Tier VI.  Nothing about the KGV class suggests Tier VI is where they ought to be.

 

No the game dosen't over flavour smaller guns, at least not in what your suggesting. Scharnhorst works because she has a 20 seocnd reload, she has the reload because her guns where capable of it. She also works because of things like turtleback armour, german secondaries, and torpedoes.

 

If she was stuck with a 25 second main gun reload or 30 seconds with the torps removed the turtleback re-angled, (it works because anything striking the turtleback inside of 10-15km will do so at autbounce even if she's flat broadside), and brought her 105mm guns down to the 12rpm of US secondaries and the 150mm down to the 5rm of most larger calibre secondaries, and made her main and secondary HE 1/6 pen instead of 1/4 Scharnhorst would be struggling to hold up T6.

 

Scharnhorst is T7 because she has a whole rnage of factors including a fast main gun reload working to prop her up, not because the guns are magically T7 quality, they aren't.

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3 hours ago, Carl said:

 

No the game dosen't over flavour smaller guns, at least not in what your suggesting. Scharnhorst works because she has a 20 seocnd reload, she has the reload because her guns where capable of it. She also works because of things like turtleback armour, german secondaries, and torpedoes.

It favors smaller guns by making them do more damage than they ought to, or it disfavors larger guns by making them do less damage than they ought to.  Compare Yamato's 460mm gun damage to Zao's 203mm gun damage.  Do you really think that Yamato's shells only did 2-3 times as much damage as an 203mm shell?

 

This is fine, it is a game balance decision, but it is true.

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29 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

It favors smaller guns by making them do more damage than they ought to, or it disfavors larger guns by making them do less damage than they ought to.  Compare Yamato's 460mm gun damage to Zao's 203mm gun damage.  Do you really think that Yamato's shells only did 2-3 times as much damage as an 203mm shell?

 

This is fine, it is a game balance decision, but it is true.

 

Sure but that isn't what gets Scharnhorst to T7, Hence my "at least not in the way your suggesting" party. It, (the game), unquestionably gives larger guns less of a damage boost than it should, i've identified that as a big part of why heavy cruisers, especially T7 and T8 heavy cruisers struggle, but with battleships since most battleships, both in game an IRL had a reload of 30 seconds plus and the game, (for playability reasons), gives very few ships a reload over 30 seconds the result is that for BB's bigger really is better on a per gun basis, and scharnhorst doesn't have an unusual number of guns for her tier. If it wasn't for her faster than average reload she wouldn't even be in the running for DPM at T&, even with her reload, she's far from the highest DPM at her tier.

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8 hours ago, YamatoA150 said:

 

T8 version with 12x 14" guns. The original design plan. Just 55s traverse, 28s reload, and normal HE/AP shells instead of having RNHE, RNAP, and near cruiser-level concealment. Buffed rudder shift can stay or go. I say it goes in favor of the strong armor.

You might end up her being used like the original version of the Conqueror. HE spamming on BB's. Then the same situation comes around again.

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