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So where *is* Vanguard?

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Look, I get it: Vanguard isn't the sexiest beast around - she's essentially a more heavily armored British Iowa with 1915-era guns (regardless of the fact that the BL Mk I 15" gun was well-regarded by U.S. Navy observers even in WWII, in terms of game mechanics, I appreciate that certain weapons have to be considered relevant for certain tiers, and these aren't). Having said that, it was a big, fast, powerful ship, and certain things could likely be tweaked in-game to make the ordinance viable (fictional super-heavy shells + supercharges being one option; having Vanguard, however unsatisfyingly, 'shoot at the upper belt' in the same manner as does Hood), and IRL I believe she would have been more than a match for either Bismarck or Littorio. 

 

XginkL5.jpg

 

I'm not by any means trying to dump on Gascogne - I like the design, and frankly believe it made a heck of a lot more sense than Richelieu at the end of the day. But let's be honest: it's a niche, paper ship, and most of the fandom surrounding the class properly belongs to Richy. I think it will still sell because it looks neat, and people (like me) like the French boats... but at least some of the bloom will be off that rose because she didn't actually exist, and the French tree should be released somewhat contemporaneously, giving people other boats to fall in love with. 

 

UPRDAt9.jpg

 

Which circles back around to Vanguard - a ship that belongs in WoWs if for no other reason than because she was the last BB, And, certainly, had an early Cold War turned hot, she would have been one of the few battleships in the world left to fight (or, had she been correctly retained by the RN instead of prematurely scrapped, she could have given excellent service in the Falklands, where the British were chronically short of on-shore fire support). Regardless... she belongs in the game. And, I daresay, she should have been added before a fringe addition like Gascogne. So... please, WG... get to work on Vanguard.

 

1ttcaI9.jpg

Edited by Battlecruiser_NewZealand
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Well if they follow Tank's direction and have 1 of every class at Tier 8 for premiums....perhaps this could be seen there.  She's a good looking ship.

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3 minutes ago, Sock5 said:

Well if they follow Tank's direction and have 1 of every class at Tier 8 for premiums....perhaps this could be seen there.  She's a good looking ship.

 

I always liked that the world's last battleship was this odd amalgamation of actual WWI hand-me-downs and super-modern design (transcom stern; advanced lifted bow form). It just seems the proper note to have concluded the battleship story on - a boat that never should have been, yet was beautiful for all its shortcomings.

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Maybe eventually, the market for RN BB premiums is rather saturated at the moment - DoY, Hood and Nelson at T7 and Warspite supporting in T6. They may not be the premiums you want, but WG may understandably think 'job done' for a while.

 

Gascogne is a separate issue. I don't know who will want a never-completed premium ship with no history, and the most fun looking thing about Richelieu (A-B turrets) removed. Gascogne (at this very long range) looks like a Bismarck only without the hydro, the long range secondaries, the distributed armor scheme... oh, but an 8% speed boost for going a bit faster, sometimes.

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14 minutes ago, mofton said:

Maybe eventually, the market for RN BB premiums is rather saturated at the moment - DoY, Hood and Nelson at T7 and Warspite supporting in T6. They may not be the premiums you want, but WG may understandably think 'job done' for a while.

 

Gascogne is a separate issue. I don't know who will want a never-completed premium ship with no history, and the most fun looking thing about Richelieu (A-B turrets) removed. Gascogne (at this very long range) looks like a Bismarck only without the hydro, the long range secondaries, the distributed armor scheme... oh, but an 8% speed boost for going a bit faster, sometimes.

 

I'm as shocked as anyone that Gascogne is making it into the game. I like it; as I said, I like the design. But, no, it doesn't make much sense at all.

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Vanguard is being stored in The Vault, where ideas for premium content are stored for when WG needs to generate cash quickly.

As I've said before, WG is as WG does... :Smile_trollface:

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dont worry, Vanguard will be a premium in due time, its too famous not to be

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56 minutes ago, Sock5 said:

Well if they follow Tank's direction and have 1 of every class at Tier 8 for premiums....perhaps this could be seen there.  She's a good looking ship.

IMHO WG'ing need to focus more on Staple Tier 8 Premium ships. 

 

I am a bit sick of the glut at tier 7. 

 

 

Currently we are missing

 

IJN tier 8 BB.  (Kii) 

IJN Tier 8 CV

USN Tier 8 CA/CL

KM Tier 8 DD

VMF Tier 8 DD 

French Tier 8 CA/CL

RN Tier 8 CA/CL

RN tier 8 BB 

 

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1 minute ago, Cobraclutch said:

IMHO WG'ing need to focus more on Staple Tier 8 Premium ships. 

 

I am a bit sick of the glut at tier 7. 

 

 

Currently we are missing

 

IJN tier 8 BB. 

IJN Tier 8 CV

USN Tier 8 CA/CL

KM Tier 8 DD

VMF Tier 8 DD 

French Tier 8 CA/CL

RN Tier 8 CA/CL

RN tier 8 BB 

 


Kii.

But otherwise you are correct!

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4 minutes ago, Sock5 said:


Kii.

But otherwise you are correct!

Oh yes now I know why that one felt weird when I stated it lol! 

 

Thanks for the correct :) 

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That Gascogne made it into the game shouldn't be surprising; 

Premium ships have always been in two categories: odd-ball real ships, or interesting paper designs (or paper rebuilds, such as the Tenryuu AA conversions)

Gascogne definitely falls into the latter category. 

Vanguard falls into the former category, as well put earlier in this thread:

58 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_NewZealand said:

odd amalgamation of actual WWI hand-me-downs and super-modern design (transcom stern; advanced lifted bow form).

 

I'd say the carrier Indomitable also falls into that category, but that's a story for another time. 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, mr3awsome said:

Premium ships have always been in two categories: odd-ball real ships, or interesting paper designs (or paper rebuilds, such as the Tenryuu AA conversions)

Until fairly recently the vast majority of premiums were not paper.

Of the glut of premiums out there, only what - Nikolai was paper/unfinished until about a year ago. Since then we've had Kii, Ashitaka, De Grasse and T-61which I think were the result of desperation (few built choices), spare hull, spare hull and desperation respectively.

Given that Gascogne isn't an act of desperation, and unless they decided to model an extra hull for the tree just in case it's still a pretty odd premium to me.

The fact that while slightly interesting my impression of her main feature (the 2x4 A-Y arrangement) is that it's bad.

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5 minutes ago, mofton said:

Until fairly recently the vast majority of premiums were not paper.

Of the glut of premiums out there, only what - Nikolai was paper/unfinished until about a year ago. Since then we've had Kii, Ashitaka, De Grasse and T-61which I think were the result of desperation (few built choices), spare hull, spare hull and desperation respectively.

Given that Gascogne isn't an act of desperation, and unless they decided to model an extra hull for the tree just in case it's still a pretty odd premium to me.

The fact that while slightly interesting my impression of her main feature (the 2x4 A-Y arrangement) is that it's bad.

I honestly don't like the fact that they used the Kii.  I'd have rather seen the Tosa.  That said, maybe they're holding back on the Tosa because they have long term plans to do a second partial IJN BB line.  Still, in that case, I'd have still kept the Kii for that purpose as well.  The thing is that the IJN didn't build all that many BB's, unlike the RN and USN, so their choices for WoWS are limited.

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1 hour ago, tcbaker777 said:

dont worry, Vanguard will be a premium in due time, its too famous not to be

It's not that famous. It didn't do anything. It wasn't an innovative design either. It was essentially built to make use of spare parts they had lying around (i.e. Courageous' and Glorious' turrets) as a faster means to get another modern BB into the war. The war ended before she was commissioned and the Brits rapidly found out she was too expensive to operate in peacetime.  It really is only "famous" for being last (ironic for a ship named "Vanguard") and for doing some duty as a Royal Yacht and flagship. 

That being said, I agree it will show up eventually though.  The hard part is placing her somewhere. The Brits have so many T7 BBs, and it really isn't a particularly good fit at T8. It's objectively worse than paper Monarch. I suspect in the end they'll have to give her some gimmick to get her to be a solid T8 because of the logjam of British T7 BBs. Playwise, Vanguard isn't that different from Hood. Until they can figure out a way to make her play differently from existing British premiums, I don't think we will see her, and I don't think coming up with a playstyle difference for her is a priority for them. 

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1 hour ago, Cobraclutch said:

IMHO WG'ing need to focus more on Staple Tier 8 Premium ships. 

 

I am a bit sick of the glut at tier 7. 

 

 

 

Honestly, I'm glad that they're putting more effort into premiums at tiers below tier 8, if only for cost reasons.  Not everyone is ready, willing, or able to shell out 50-some bucks for a premium ship.

I will say though that THREE premium RN BBs at tier 7 is a bit of a glut in that narrow grouping.  Of course, it's not helping WG's RN BB tree any that the British had the audacity to build a tier 7 BB in the 1930's instead of a tier 8's and higher like everyone else.  :Smile_teethhappy:

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2 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I honestly don't like the fact that they used the Kii.  I'd have rather seen the Tosa.  That said, maybe they're holding back on the Tosa because they have long term plans to do a second partial IJN BB line.  Still, in that case, I'd have still kept the Kii for that purpose as well.  The thing is that the IJN didn't build all that many BB's, unlike the RN and USN, so their choices for WoWS are limited.

My point on desperation was more that 'there are no suitable built Japanese battleships to make into T8 premiums' so you're going to have to go with paper, be it Tosa, or Kii, or another Amagi or whatever.

The IJN only built 4 battleships after WWI, and with Nagato, Mutsu, Yamato and now Musashi coming out that well is dry. The Germans are 100% represented too, but Tirpitz was T8-T9 capable.

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3 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

It's not that famous. It didn't do anything. It wasn't an innovative design either. It was essentially built to make use of spare parts they had lying around (i.e. Courageous' and Glorious' turrets) as a faster means to get another modern BB into the war. The war ended before she was commissioned and the Brits rapidly found out she was too expensive to operate in peacetime.  It really is only "famous" for being last (ironic for a ship named "Vanguard") and for doing some duty as a Royal Yacht and flagship. 

That being said, I agree it will show up eventually though.  The hard part is placing her somewhere. The Brits have so many T7 BBs, and it really isn't a particularly good fit at T8. It's objectively worse than paper Monarch. I suspect in the end they'll have to give her some gimmick to get her to be a solid T8 because of the logjam of British T7 BBs. Playwise, Vanguard isn't that different from Hood. Until they can figure out a way to make her play differently from existing British premiums, I don't think we will see her, and I don't think coming up with a playstyle difference for her is a priority for them. 

The Vanguard was "famous" (if only in trivia) for one other thing.  In the classic movie, Sink the Bismarck, the Vanguard was used for a number of interior shots.  Like the wardrooms for the RN and German captain and admiral scenes.  And the interior shots of turrets being loaded.  And perhaps some others.  In fact, IIRC, these scenes were done rather shortly before the Vanguard was sent to the scrapyard.

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I'd love a Tier 8 Vanguard. Nice punchy 15 inch guns, good secondaries, warspite heal and fantastic AA.

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3 minutes ago, mofton said:

My point on desperation was more that 'there are no suitable built Japanese battleships to make into T8 premiums' so you're going to have to go with paper, be it Tosa, or Kii, or another Amagi or whatever.

The IJN only built 4 battleships after WWI, and with Nagato, Mutsu, Yamato and now Musashi coming out that well is dry. The Germans are 100% represented too, but Tirpitz was T8-T9 capable.

I'm picky on this.  I don't see the Tosa as a paper ship.  It was ordered and some of them had already had their keels laid when they were cancelled due to the Washington Naval Treaty.  

To me, a paper ship is something that's sort of fictional, as opposed to one that may not have been built but had been fully intended to be built, perhaps even ordered, perhaps even started.  The Tosas were not paper ships in my mind, much the same way that the Lexington battlecruisers weren't paper ships.  In both of these cases, at least one of the class was converted to carriers.  I'm not sure about the Kii, since it was intended as the follow-on class to the Amagis and Tosas.  And I highly doubt that any had yet been ordered, if only because given how many Tosas and Amagis were planned, there was probably no space in the  existing shipyards to handle starting any Kiis.  Still, I have a hard time thinking of the Kii as a paper design, because of it seems very much like a class that the IJN fully intended to order and build, just not for a few years at the time the Tosas and Amagis were cancelled.

I look at the Tilson (?) "maximum battleship" USN designs from the 1910's as paper ships because as I understand it, these were never intended for construction and were more along the lines of a design study than construction plans.

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2 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

I'd love a Tier 8 Vanguard. Nice punchy 15 inch guns, good secondaries, warspite heal and fantastic AA.

I agree.  I think that most BB fans would love to see her.

 

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19 minutes ago, mofton said:

Until fairly recently the vast majority of premiums were not paper.

Hey, we both know what I want for the game and what WG have done are two distinctly different things. :Smile_hiding:

19 minutes ago, mofton said:

Of the glut of premiums out there, only what - Nikolai was paper/unfinished until about a year ago. Since then we've had Kii, Ashitaka, De Grasse and T-61which I think were the result of desperation (few built choices), spare hull, spare hull and desperation respectively.

T-61 is a good premium choice, even if it is a relatively uninspired one. 

De Grasse is a wasted opportunity, because she's the 1942 version, which is literally the least interesting option that they could have chosen. 

Ashitaka is the type of premium that deserves to be destroyed in a fire. 

Kii should have been a tier IX regular, but again, we know how that's ended. 

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20 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

It's not that famous. It didn't do anything. It wasn't an innovative design either.

ZjsIJbg.png

18 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I will say though that THREE premium RN BBs at tier 7 is a bit of a glut in that narrow grouping.  Of course, it's not helping WG's RN BB tree any that the British had the audacity to build a tier 7 BB in the 1930's instead of a tier 8's and higher like everyone else.  :Smile_teethhappy:

It doesn't help WG that WG's game mechanics completely shaft the KGV class, being 14in armed at T7, being optimized for long range combat, AoN armor scheme, heavy shell secondaries that don't do much more damage than a 5in gun, mechanics praising the citadel hit above all else.

WG made a rod for their own backs when they made 25mm perfectly immune to 14in while being no protection to 15in.

8 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I'm picky on this.  I don't see the Tosa as a paper ship.  It was ordered and some of them had already had their keels laid when they were cancelled due to the Washington Naval Treaty. 

If I were being diligent I'd have said 'incomplete' or 'not commissioned' - to me there's less difference between a solid design, steel on a slip or pure fantasy.

10 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

I'd love a Tier 8 Vanguard. Nice punchy 15 inch guns, good secondaries, warspite heal and fantastic AA.

Punchy 15in at T8? Ehhh.... Warspite's pen isn't great, Hood's is worse, and neither are T8 - where the Hipper, Roon, Hindy, Balti and DM will all autobounce your 15in when you're incessantly up-tiered.

11 minutes ago, mr3awsome said:

Hey, we both know what I want for the game and what WG have done are two distinctly different things. :Smile_hiding:

Well - too true.

I would like to see more not-fitting/outlier/funky premiums such as Atlanta included. If they have to be paper that's ok.

T-61's ok, just concerned it'll be OP. De G is a waste being simply 'better La G', my interest and knowledge on IJN BB's is pretty limited. I also hold a soft spot for famous ships, so it's somewhat annoying when paper gets prioritized over that.

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RN's got almost enough BB's/CC's to make a separate, 3 to 10 line. We didn't get G3's or N3's. None of the CC's. The old KGV class. Dreadnought, which I'm still pissed about, is not in game. Yeah, Vanguard will be a prem, and a whole lot more RN BB's.

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Vanguard would struggle somewhat in terms of armor. In terms of thickness her belt isn't all that great, 12.75" by machinery and 13.74" by magazines and completely vertical, though knowing WG's convention with lb/sq ft to thickness conversions they'll round it up to 13" and 14" respectively (who knew that denoting your armor thickness by lb/sq ft in the 1940s would magically give you 2% thicker armor in WOWS). The turret and barbette protection would be pretty poor as well at 12.75", the thinnest turret face besides Amagi and with minimal sloping to boot.

 

Of course, WG could just make the ship tanky and resistant to broadside citadels by doing what they did for all British battleships from tier 7 onwards: just make the citadel underwater by cutting short the boiler and engine rooms.

Edited by DeliciousFart

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Vanguard would probably be a T8 if she uses the 15" Mk IIs rather than the old MkIs, with conventional shell values rather than RNHE and RNAP values giving her the punch necessary for the tier, along with an artificially reduced citadel. She'd probably keep the buffed rudder shift, but gain her titanic turning (at least 900m). Probably a buffed 45s traverse too. She could retain the high citadel, but gain Hyper Repair Party instead, or alternatively, artificially reduce the citadel but only give her Warspite's Repair Party.

 

Else, a T7 with the MkIs with superchargers for a bit more punch, but regular HE and AP rather than RNHE and RNAP. Buffed citadel, buffed rudder, larger-than-average turning, Warspite Heal, and some other minor gimmick such as AADF or Radar (yes, I said it).

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