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Smallfuzzykitten

A thought on Smoke

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I had this idea today, and forgive me if this has been brought up before, but a cursory search through the forum brought me no similar results. Please note, I am not proposing this as a change that should be implemented, just as a mechanics thought that I would like to hear feedback for- it's a random idea. I had it while playing my Fiji earlier today and getting cussed out by the Reds in chat for firing from smoke.

What if smoke mechanics also accounted for firing from smoke beyond detection, by reducing smoke time each volley? Especially if it was classified by ship type, so say a BB firing from smoke reduces the smoke time by a large number, but cruisers less so, and so on. While the instant reaction is likely "Hell no", hear me out for a moment. If such a mechanic was introduced, and then smoke times were buffed across the board, this might introduce potential tactics like smoking an area to conceal an approach instead of making a concealed firing nest. Maybe there could be an additional dispersion value added for firing through smoke at spotted targets- Maybe this would make smoke slightly more effective against Radar or Hydro as a counter, instead of a hard Rock-Paper-Scissors? Additionally, this could add to the utility of spotting mechanics via planes looking over the smoke. It would allow smoke to be used like a resource handed out by DDs (And some Cruisers).

Just a few random thoughts- Again, I did not see anything like this in my forum search, and was wondering what the community take on it could be.

Happy hunting,

Smallfuzzykitten

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I’m fairly sure that WG talked about a similar approach before they settled on the current smoke detection. A major problem could be the DD who smokes for himself only to have a greedy BB drive in and proceed to shoot your smoke away. 

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2 minutes ago, Landing_Skipper said:

I’m fairly sure that WG talked about a similar approach before they settled on the current smoke detection. A major problem could be the DD who smokes for himself only to have a greedy BB drive in and proceed to shoot your smoke away. 

 

This, that was going to be the initial rework, then realized that exact problem. Unfortunately this iteration has it's own issues really kinda making using smoke for teammates pointless except maybe some cruisers in the exact right situation.

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16 minutes ago, Smallfuzzykitten said:

What if smoke mechanics also accounted for firing from smoke beyond detection, by reducing smoke time each volley? Especially if it was classified by ship type, so say a BB firing from smoke reduces the smoke time by a large number, but cruisers less so, and so on.

 

It would make sense that the smoke would dissipate with the firing of weaponry, especially high caliber weaponry like that found on ships, so I can see where this idea came from. Y'know, apart from the enemy team telling you that your Fiji is a cuss word for being able to fire from smoke and remain stealthed.

 

20 minutes ago, Smallfuzzykitten said:

If such a mechanic was introduced, and then smoke times were buffed across the board, this might introduce potential tactics like smoking an area to conceal an approach instead of making a concealed firing nest. Maybe there could be an additional dispersion value added for firing through smoke at spotted targets

 

The idea of having longer smoke times is a little too much for me to agree with. You don't have to be inside of a smoke screen to use it. In fact, a cruiser can hide behind the smoke screen, maybe even a few kilometers back for the sake of this example, and just rain fire from behind the vision wall at range, where her guns will do nothing to the smoke. This means a massive vision block that not only lasts longer but hides an undetectable, firing cruiser. US smoke is already very strong with it's duration and the size it can grow to when a US DD is fully underway, so the idea of just creating a massive wall of no vision that hides your team just makes me feel like it would hinder game progression, and that it would be creating extremely passive play. I also don't like the idea of adding more RNG to your guns when using smoke, though it would make sense...

 

32 minutes ago, Smallfuzzykitten said:

Maybe this would make smoke slightly more effective against Radar or Hydro as a counter, instead of a hard Rock-Paper-Scissors? Additionally, this could add to the utility of spotting mechanics via planes looking over the smoke. It would allow smoke to be used like a resource handed out by DDs (And some Cruisers).

 

It would definitely hinder the use of hydro and especially radar, but you should only be using those two when a danger that can be assisted with those two consumables presents itself. In the case of hydro, rushing a smoke screen should require you to use hydro, even if you aren't spotted. DDs love to torp from smoke, especially if there is a friendly smokescreen to torpedo, so it's better to use the consumable when you push, instead of then dying without using it because you were hit by an unexpected torpedo salvo or because you auto detected an enemy DD at 2km. Both, even. :Smile_teethhappy:

 

With radar, people would simply adapt and just use their brains a little more. If you think an enemy DD is in that smoke, by all means, radar away. If you don't spot anything, you were never going to spot them anyway even before the smoke change, and if you do spot them, the same thing will happen even before this change, and that's the cruiser completely demolishing the foolish destroyer or enemy cruiser who pushed into a radar ship without vision. The main difference now is that the destroyer, if they live, and even their teammates, can now push into a smoke screen because it will most certainly outlast a radar burst. While this may be seen as more tactical and mean that a smoke isn't wasted when radared by an enemy boat, simply making the smoke last longer will not change the fact that the enemy can use the smoke to. And if that smoke lasts longer and a radar ship pushes your team back due to the fact they're unspotted, now you've given the enemy that long duration smoke. It doesn't matter if the smoke lasts 80 seconds or 400 seconds, radar will always be strong because if you're spotted by it, that means you're easily hittable by the ship using it because of the low range. :cap_like:

 

And this is where I get to the point of what the other two posters have said! :fish_cute_2: Either a greedy player who knows they'll use your smoke up if they hide and fire in it, will do it anyway, and a player who doesn't read up on the change will simply waste your smoke unintentionally. There are too many of both types of player in this game, so an idea like this would fall flat because people are either too greedy or uninformed.

 

It's a good idea and I like the realism it would add to how smoke works, but with how people play the game, it just doesn't feel like it would fit well at all. I wasn't around, at least on the forums, to know about this when it was first suggested, but I think this it is the reason as to why they abandoned that idea, and that's simply the player.

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Like what the other said, that was the initial idea but then shifted it to a state of what you see now. I actually like the new smoke mechanics, it becomes more balanced while maintaining utility. Honestly, it might be an issue for the long run if WG did decide to implement a smoke system of what you described. Its not a bad idea, but it could be more prone to balance issues down the road.

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I think many DD and cruiser players need to focus more on ship specific smoke detection ranges.  

Last Saturday I div’d up with a friend.  His Atlanta and my Gadjah Mada made a fabulous Flint with radar and deep water torps. Atlanta’s smoke detection is only 4 km or so. Radar is 8.47. GM spews out smoke almost constantly. The only downside was that my damage went down as he cackled with joy, abusing the ships I spotted for him. 

Even battleships can use a smoke screen to reposition without firing. 

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7 hours ago, WanderingGhost said:

 

This, that was going to be the initial rework, then realized that exact problem. Unfortunately this iteration has it's own issues really kinda making using smoke for teammates pointless except maybe some cruisers in the exact right situation.

 

It's exactly the same as before, except there's a distance requirement. BBs fire at targets 14+km away all the time. Putting smoke somewhere between them and the target will allow them to fire without being detected.

 

It just takes some thought and foresight to use. You just can't create a smoke fort anywhere you please at the drop of a hat.

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10 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

 

It's exactly the same as before, except there's a distance requirement. BBs fire at targets 14+km away all the time. Putting smoke somewhere between them and the target will allow them to fire without being detected.

 

It just takes some thought and foresight to use. You just can't create a smoke fort anywhere you please at the drop of a hat.

It's not quite EXACTLY the same.  Yes BB can still use the smoke, but before they were smoking at 5-7km.  RNG is a lot less forgiving at 14+km

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2 minutes ago, callsign4223 said:

It's not quite EXACTLY the same.  Yes BB can still use the smoke, but before they were smoking at 5-7km.  RNG is a lot less forgiving at 14+km

 

For sure. But we get tons of threads on how BBs are deleting CAs and crippling DDs at 18+km, so not a big deal.....

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4 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

 

For sure. But we get tons of threads on how BBs are deleting CAs and crippling DDs at 18+km, so not a big deal.....

My point being, that the smoke firing detection wasn't really aimed at DDs.  It was always aimed at BBs.  Honestly, CL didn't even really get hit that hard by it.  Most CL don't want to be much closer than 8-10km and don't need to be for good firing arcs.  It just got the 8+ inch guns out of the deletion zone.

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1 hour ago, callsign4223 said:

My point being, that the smoke firing detection wasn't really aimed at DDs.  It was always aimed at BBs.  Honestly, CL didn't even really get hit that hard by it.  Most CL don't want to be much closer than 8-10km and don't need to be for good firing arcs.  It just got the 8+ inch guns out of the deletion zone.

 

Good point.

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8 hours ago, Skpstr said:

 

It's exactly the same as before, except there's a distance requirement. BBs fire at targets 14+km away all the time. Putting smoke somewhere between them and the target will allow them to fire without being detected.

 

It just takes some thought and foresight to use. You just can't create a smoke fort anywhere you please at the drop of a hat.

 

I'm not talking about the guys that stay as far away as they can from battle. I'm talking about when one or more ships, BB or cruiser, are actually pushing an objective and start to take heavy focus fire, that unless they completely stop firing for the exact time needed to get the screen down and retreat, end up still lit up and wrecked because they fired their guns right as you put the screen down. I'm sorry but there has to be a better system than you fire guns you are spotted clear as day in a smoke bank. I get where it could be an issue but this option really isn't much better in my opinion. What, BB's, the best protected ships are just supposed to sit as far away as they can so a DD or cruiser can lay smoke to cover them if they need to retreat? Cruisers are supposed to stay away from caps because they fire their guns in that smoke cloud a DD likely spots them? Aggression is mostly lost save for DD's because they still have a super small range, anyone else why be aggressive if you can't have cover to retreat? And it becomes doubly frustrating for me because I prefer aggressive play, but now trying to retreat can be damn near impossible as everything flings HE my way. I don't want to be at 14 km slinging rounds where RNG has more of an impact on dispersion, I want to be at 10 km or less, especially in my German BB's. We need smoke to be more like that fog from this years Halloween event where it's not the clearest picture when spotted or something. Those times I play a DD and a BB actually pushes in I want to be able to give him some means of cover if they need to maybe fall back and repair.

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14 hours ago, WanderingGhost said:

 

I'm not talking about the guys that stay as far away as they can from battle. I'm talking about when one or more ships, BB or cruiser, are actually pushing an objective and start to take heavy focus fire, that unless they completely stop firing for the exact time needed to get the screen down and retreat, end up still lit up and wrecked because they fired their guns right as you put the screen down. I'm sorry but there has to be a better system than you fire guns you are spotted clear as day in a smoke bank. I get where it could be an issue but this option really isn't much better in my opinion. What, BB's, the best protected ships are just supposed to sit as far away as they can so a DD or cruiser can lay smoke to cover them if they need to retreat? Cruisers are supposed to stay away from caps because they fire their guns in that smoke cloud a DD likely spots them? Aggression is mostly lost save for DD's because they still have a super small range, anyone else why be aggressive if you can't have cover to retreat? And it becomes doubly frustrating for me because I prefer aggressive play, but now trying to retreat can be damn near impossible as everything flings HE my way. I don't want to be at 14 km slinging rounds where RNG has more of an impact on dispersion, I want to be at 10 km or less, especially in my German BB's. We need smoke to be more like that fog from this years Halloween event where it's not the clearest picture when spotted or something. Those times I play a DD and a BB actually pushes in I want to be able to give him some means of cover if they need to maybe fall back and repair.

The time for the detection bloom to shrink is 20 seconds.  Most BB take longer than that to reload anyway.  That's why you have stealth build NC and Iowa blinking in and out of detection.  If the BB fires, and then gets smoked up, he will fall off of detection before his next reload is ready.  If he chooses to fire again then he didn't want to be stealthed, he has made the choice to forego pulling back in order to deal more damage.  If that was a wise move or not is totally situational.  He may have had a half health broadside cruiser he could delete, or he may just be damage farming.

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