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Opfor_Commander

Lets talk about the CV in the room

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There's been a long standing problem with CVs and their gameplay interaction with the other ship classes

 

Many changes have been tried and tested. Some made improvements, some felt like a step backwards or two. 

 

Below is my own opinion of what we currently have and a possible direction that could be taken. The floor is open to improve or critique the idea.

-----------------------------

 

Current CV environment: Amazing CVs, but unbalanced in terms of their purpose. Lets be real for a moment, the primary selling point and allure for the game is the Battleship at this point in time. (Big nasty's on the open sea slapping each other around) And whats not to like about that. Not to say it can't be changed and the love spread around a little more in terms of the other classes.

 

I've played a lot of strategy and RPG games over the years and seen what really makes a game fun for all and what gnaws on the gamer until he quits.

 

Lets try to fit the ships into classes of what alot of gamers and devs understand from other frames of reference:

 

Battleships =  Tanks/Barbarians/Knights

Cruisers = Warrior/Ranger/Archer

Destroyers = Thief/Rouge/Assassin

Carriers = Wizard/Summoner

 

Each class has their Pro/Cons and certain play styles. The roles of the BB, CA, and DD is pretty flushed out and they still need some polishing IMO....But the CV is the one class that hasn't found its niche yet and is primary discussion topic here.

 

Stop me if the following seems familiar; Game starts, CV spins up planes and goes hunting for one target to delete. Rise, Repeat.

There's only a handful of variables to account for really......ie boring for the CV driver and annoying for the other classes.

 

The game is currently set on a 1-layer playing field. Good=Simple, Bad=Limiting

This 1-layer design is fine for the BB, CA, and DD...as they primarily operate at ocean level.

 

But CV's don't primarily operate at ocean level, they were made for the sky and their game play should be primarily in the sky. 

 

And this brings me to my idea:

 

Incorporate a 2nd layer to the battlefield.  If CV's have their own objectives to battle over. Cap'able by the aircraft, this opens up a totally different way of playing the game, but not just for CVs. if you add the ability for BBs to be able to capture those objs. You in turn create a funneling effect for action as BB's won't go in to capture an Air zone without AA usually from escorting CA's and you know DD's are always lurking.

 

So lets elaborate on this a little more.

 

If a field has both ocean and sky objective area's. This creates additional variables a player/team must decide on with their strategy.

Does the Ocean based ships ignore the Air zones and concentrate only on Ocean zones/ships

Does the CV on a team scramble to capture/hold Air zones or does he go after ships

This really brings out the importance of a Carrier choosing the best loadout for their gameplay but also having to understand what their giving up. (Makes 2 CV vs. 2 CV games a teamwork based experience)

 

Maybe holding a particular Air Zone gives a certain kind of boost to the team. 

 

I think this will bring CV gameplay and inclusion in the forefront and give WG a new way of designing maps and ships for the future.

 

 

Thoughts?

  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Opfor_Commander

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Initially?  That it seems  like it might be a good thing to have something to fight over where I wouldn't neccessarily need to deal with heavy AA.

 

At the same time; there are CV haters out there who would go out of their way to avoid providing any support to a CV trying to take such a spot, just to screw the CV over.

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I really think that the CV player shouldn't be involved in the actual attacks, no manual drops with some other way to bring skill into it. Think of the dive bomber scene in Midway, back at the carrier they can hear the chatter of the pilots, which in reality they wouldn't with the radio tech in WWII, but don't really know what the result is until the air group leader sends the result back to the carrier.

 

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17 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

I really think that the CV player shouldn't be involved in the actual attacks, no manual drops with some other way to bring skill into it. Think of the dive bomber scene in Midway, back at the carrier they can hear the chatter of the pilots, which in reality they wouldn't with the radio tech in WWII, but don't really know what the result is until the air group leader sends the result back to the carrier.

 

How would CVs be able to express their skill then?  Serious question, if this was implemented how would skill expression work?

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Just now, Slntreaper said:

How would CVs be able to express their skill then?  Serious question, if this was implemented how would skill expression work?

Theres probably some better way than the current: "left-click then push ALT for instant kill" that is current with carriers having constant real time control over their planes and the laughably small arm time torps have.

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1 minute ago, Dana_ said:

Theres probably some better way than the current: "left-click then push ALT for instant kill" that is current with carriers having constant real time control over their planes and the laughably small arm time torps have.

It's left-click then push alt for instant kill? Man, I've been doing alt then left click, no wonder every ship doesn't die every time, like I hear about around here.

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4 hours ago, Dana_ said:

Theres probably some better way than the current: "left-click then push ALT for instant kill" that is current with carriers having constant real time control over their planes and the laughably small arm time torps have.

Arm time on torpedoes is 1.5 seconds for America and 2 seconds for IJN.  That's not laughably fast, that's some of the slowest arm times in game.  And they move damn slow too, with USN torps going at 34 knots.  That's slower than most DDs.  And it's not an instakill either, most USN TB drops can only hit 4/6 torps, which means that they'll only get off about 40k dmg, and that's without the torpedo belt modifiers.  Most CLs and CAs are punished just as hard for showing broadside, I don't see why we shouldn't punish BBs for letting themselves get [edited] by planes.  

 

Edit: I am apparently a very big idiot, the arm time for both torpedoes are 3.5 seconds.  

Edited by Slntreaper
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32 minutes ago, Slntreaper said:

How would CVs be able to express their skill then?  Serious question, if this was implemented how would skill expression work?

Interesting clip from a pretty good film but note.....I never knew there were Corsairs in the dive bomber groups. Look at it close. Obviously stock film they used for filler. No Corsairs in Pacific in June of 1942.

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2 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

At the same time; there are CV haters out there who would go out of their way to avoid providing any support to a CV trying to take such a spot, just to screw the CV over.

Horsepuckey! Personally speaking, while I hate CVs and would insanely celebrate if WG was to pull it's collective head out of that dark smelly hole that they've parked it in and get rid of them, I consider CVs to be members of the team. And I ALWAYS support my team to the best of my abilities, including CVs. Even when the CV aint supporting me while I'm trying to defend him/her. (Which has happened several times)

 

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It's an interesting idea, but I worry that it would increase the impact of CV skill differential at a point in time where we should be trying to decrease the impact of CV skill differential.

Edited by cometguy

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2 hours ago, Dana_ said:

Theres probably some better way than the current: "left-click then push ALT for instant kill" that is current with carriers having constant real time control over their planes and the laughably small arm time torps have.

That's not how any of this works. At all. 

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CV's have a niche, they also have their own niche's. And we don't need any additional objectives or any of that, we need our class fixed. Our thing is similar really to cruisers, but with battleship level striking power - support the team and take out planes, deal damage usually from further out while DD's are spotting things and all and BB's are (hopefully) being big distracting targets trading blows and taking hits that they just shrug off. If one side is weak, our aircraft are generally faster than ships and can faster redirect to it if it needs help.

 

Within the 2 lines we currently have, although it is not well executed, we have a niche that works for each. IJN relying on torpedoes with (what really should be) weaker durability planes that rely on numbers and overwhelming enemy defenses to mitigate the losses they are going to take, which their ability to cross drop and rather poor DB's make them excellent BB hunters, as the torps have the punch and most BB's aren't very nimble, plus such big targets it's harder to miss with the DB's. They can hit cruisers and DD's, however, it's not always ideal as most are more agile and quicker and can dodge even some of the most well executed attacks. On the opposite side, USN has planes that (should be) more durable than IJN's, and relies more on it's DB's, particular with it's heavier bombs. Still not the most ideal for DD's (partially I think the only potential line that should be an effective DD hunter is a German CV line), though better than IJN but really it's sturdier planes and heavier bombs are good for taking out cruisers. Though with an option, such as 1,1,2 on Ranger/Lex that trades equal air control to increase striking power against a BB. But otherwise, relying more on fire to deal with a BB.

 

  • Strafing needs to be reworked so it's not all about micromanaging and close the gap between the super skilled/experienced players and the not so much and newer ones. A debuff to DPS that gives you some control over the aerial fight with fighters and a temporary debuff to bomber accuracy but without being as brutally punishing as it is now for players.
  • Manual drop needs to be removed from TB's or reworked that it's arming range is more similar to autodrops because we should not be dropping torps 1km or less from a ship.
  • USN needs HP buffs to fighters and bombers while taking a DPS nerf, while IJN maybe gains a little DPS but loses some ammo to try and equal out fighters while keeping them different.
  • USN needs, after fixing it's fighters, the return of it's AS set ups, IJN needs in most cases (where it would have more fighters) it's AS setup's removed and replaced with it's own "strike" set ups that match USN's in fighters and maintains it's group numbers just in additional strike groups.
  • USN HE DB's need an accuracy buff plain and simple.
  • CV's may need to have their damaged nerfed slightly on torps and HE DB's, and definitely on the AP.
  • AA on all ships (with manual drop TB's removed from the equation or fixed that they have to drop at range) save maybe DD's other than for weapon consistency, needs a pretty hefty nerf.
  • Re-integrate AA mod 2 and Secondary mod 2 into 1 mod again that buffs both AA and secondary range.
  • Especially with fighters no longer stomping and deleting one another or groups of attack planes, consideration of giving all BB's their own DF AA that has a 1.x or 1.1x multiplier that really just causes the bombers to be less accurate and easier to try and dodge some of the incoming attack. Cruisers or ships like DoY will still have the one that not only debuffs but is far more threatening to CV's planes.
  • Make "Emergency Takeoff" a built in mechanic, not a skill, and change the skill to maybe lessen the penalty we get from it. As it currently stands the skill is effectively useless and do just as well, arguably better, just investing in DCP II, maybe the flags/skills that cost less to hasten it's cooldown. 
  • Overall fighter DPS rework to lessen the power gap between tiers

Those are the kinda things we need. Not control sectors like what they added in Warplanes "2.NO". We needed AA reduced enough that we aren't screwed simply from attrition, but still able to make it we aren't just dominating if the other CV can't debuff or shoot down our planes. We need our ability to strike be it with torps or bombs to be felt by the enemy to say the least but other than RNG detonation, unless we get off a really well planned attack that DOESN'T involve dropping torps from point blank, not absolutely devastate ships. We need for fighters to be a fair fight so it's not just one side getting it's fighters wrecked and then it's bombers while the other side just has no ability to truly cause damage because it's weapons are inaccurate and overbuffed AA. We need to not be completely shut down if a DD sneaks through or were the last remaining ship because someone starts a fire unless we take 3 of the 19 skill points were allowed to take a skill no other class needs to. The only thing killing fun for CV's right now and what usually has been driving new players to them away is things like USN fighters wrecking IJN's with ease, strafing causing 1/3 of the planes you have to be erased in 3 seconds, and AA that even when it's a singled out ship that's eaten 100 HE rounds but still has enough AA intact that our planes even at auto drop range never even get their ordnance off.

 

If we actually have to fight, without the same micromanaging we currently have, for control of the skies regardless of nation, if we can launch attacks on ships when they go alone, knowing that we send a dozen or more aircraft at them that we may take some losses, especially against a higher tier ship, but not total losses without even scoring a hit or getting a shot off, that if a DD sneaks through or because some CV's have BB spotting ranges spotted early cause we haven't gotten turned around to run to the back yet and take fire, that we aren't going to be shutdown and completely defenseless, THAT is fun.

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