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skyman100

Vampire IFHE

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Against T2/3/4 BBs, not really

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25 minutes ago, skyman100 said:

Just got the ship and was told that He shells shatter on BB decks. Would IFHE help at all?

This may help.

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Yes, IFHE will help.

 

shell diameter needed to pen armor

 

Ships Without IFHE With IFHE
Default      (armor + 0.5) * 6      (armor + 0.5) * 6 / 1.3

 

For example:

 

Tier IV Kaiser fore and aft decks have 19 mm of armor protection

 

19.5 * 6 = 117 mm so 102 mm HE will shatter

117 / 1.3 = 90 so 102 mm IFHE will penetrate

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration

Edited by Snargfargle
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^ your math for IFHE is not right.

It's

HE: 102mm / 6 = 17mm
IFHE: 102mm / 6 * 1.3 = 22.1mm

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49 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

^ your math for IFHE is not right.

It's

HE: 102mm / 6 = 17mm
IFHE: 102mm / 6 * 1.3 = 22.1mm

 

We are using different arrangements of the formula and solving for different variables.

 

To shatter a 102 mm HE shell from the Vampire requires 102 / 6 =  17 mm of armor. The Kaiser has 20 mm armor on its mid deck and 19 mm on its fore and aft decks so its decks will shatter the Vampire's 102 mm HE. To penetrate the 20 mm armor of the mid deck requires (20 + 0.5) * 6 =  123 mm HE. Since we are firing 102 mm HE it won't pen the mid deck. Nor will it pen the fore and aft decks as (19 + 0.5) * 6 = 117 mm HE. However, it will pen the 13 mm superstructure as 13 mm armor is thinner than 17 mm armor. We can calculate for shell diameter too and see that it would take a (13 + 0.5) * 6 = 81 mm shell to pen 13 mm of armor. Since a 102 mm shell is larger than an 81 mm shell, a 102 mm shell will pen 13 mm armor, and then some.

 

Calculating for IFHE, we find that to shatter a 102 mm IFHE round requires 102 * 1.3 / 6 = 22.1 mm armor. Since ship armor is an integer value, this means that a ship requires 23 mm of armor to shatter 102 mm IFHE. Therefore 102 MM IFHE will pen the Kaiser's fore (19 mm), mid (20 mm) and aft (19 mm) decks as well as its 13 mm superstructure. Without IFHE all you are going to pen is the superstructure.

 

We can confirm this by looking at the penetration formula again. The IFHE shell diameter needed to penetrate 20 mm armor is (20 + 0.5) * 6 / 1.3 = 95 mm (rounded up). Since 102 mm shells are larger than 95 mm shells we can see that the Vampire's 102 mm IFHE can penetrate all of the Kaiser's deck and superstructure.

 

The formulae are presented here:

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration  

 

Edited by Snargfargle
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54 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

 

We are using different arrangements of the formula and solving for different variables.

 

To shatter a 102 mm HE shell from the Vampire requires 102 / 6 =  17 mm of armor. The Kaiser has 20 mm armor on its mid deck and 19 mm on its fore and aft decks so its decks will shatter the Vampire's 102 mm HE. To penetrate the 20 mm armor of the mid deck requires (20 + 0.5) * 6 =  123 mm HE. Since we are firing 102 mm HE it won't pen the mid deck. Nor will it pen the fore and aft decks as (19 + 0.5) * 6 = 117 mm HE. However, it will pen the 13 mm superstructure as 13 mm armor is thinner than 17 mm armor. We can calculate for shell diameter too and see that it would take a (13 + 0.5) * 6 = 81 mm shell to pen 13 mm of armor. Since a 102 mm shell is larger than an 81 mm shell, a 102 mm shell will pen 13 mm armor, and then some.

 

Calculating for IFHE, we find that to shatter a 102 mm IFHE round requires 102 * 1.3 / 6 = 22.1 mm armor. Since ship armor is an integer value, this means that a ship requires 23 mm of armor to shatter 102 mm IFHE. Therefore 102 MM IFHE will pen the Kaiser's fore (19 mm), mid (20 mm) and aft (19 mm) decks as well as its 13 mm superstructure. Without IFHE all you are going to pen is the superstructure.

 

We can confirm this by looking at the penetration formula again. The IFHE shell diameter needed to penetrate 20 mm armor is (20 + 0.5) * 6 / 1.3 = 95 mm (rounded up). Since 102 mm shells are larger than 95 mm shells we can see that the Vampire's 102 mm IFHE can penetrate all of the Kaiser's deck and superstructure.

 

The formulae are presented here:

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration  

 

 

Both you are talking about 2 sides of the same coin. You are talking about the minimum HE shell diameter needed to pen a specific armor thickness, and MrDeaf is refering to the armor pen value of specifically the 102mm HE shell w/ and w/o IFHE. The formulas for calculating these are different so you are both right.

Edited by Ulthwey

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9 minutes ago, Ulthwey said:

...you are both right.

 

HERESY!

 

ON THIS FORUM THERE MUST ALWAYS BE SOMEONE WRONG, and it's usually the one with the lowest WR%

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It all boils down to "yes, use IFHE with the Vampire." Empirically, I can definitely attest to this. I can easily kill DDs with my Vampire's HE and can do a fair bit of damage to cruisers with AP if I get close. However, no matter what I fire, my Vampire's guns are nearly worthless versus battleships. HE just shatters and rarely sets a fire and AP simply ricochets off into the distance. However, I think that this is going to change when I get IFHE. I just need to collect the points.

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Wow, talk of IFHE for a T3 DD hurts my head.   Vampire HE works fine on the superstructure of low tier BBs....4 points is quite expensive, especially at T3.

 

v/r,

 

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Oh the high price of clubbing....

 

I'm interested in Vampire simply because I enjoy low tier DD play, more specifically ANTI-DD play (which it does well at), and I'm wanting a Commonwealth trainer for when the Haida comes.  I'll pick it up.

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1 hour ago, TexJapan said:

Wow, talk of IFHE for a T3 DD hurts my head.   Vampire HE works fine on the superstructure of low tier BBs....4 points is quite expensive, especially at T3.

 

v/r,

 

Most of the people on the forums will be using 15 + point captains.  More than enough points to go around for a T3.

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5 hours ago, HyperFish said:

 

HERESY!

 

ON THIS FORUM THERE MUST ALWAYS BE SOMEONE WRONG, and it's usually the one with the lowest WR%

Damn! I guess I can't post anything on this forum

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25 minutes ago, Finnkax said:

IFHE with british captain??? Is ap round with britisch ships behaving differently?

Both Vampire and Perth are Commonwealth branch, not British. 

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7 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

 

We are using different arrangements of the formula and solving for different variables.

 

To shatter a 102 mm HE shell from the Vampire requires 102 / 6 =  17 mm of armor. The Kaiser has 20 mm armor on its mid deck and 19 mm on its fore and aft decks so its decks will shatter the Vampire's 102 mm HE. To penetrate the 20 mm armor of the mid deck requires (20 + 0.5) * 6 =  123 mm HE. Since we are firing 102 mm HE it won't pen the mid deck. Nor will it pen the fore and aft decks as (19 + 0.5) * 6 = 117 mm HE. However, it will pen the 13 mm superstructure as 13 mm armor is thinner than 17 mm armor. We can calculate for shell diameter too and see that it would take a (13 + 0.5) * 6 = 81 mm shell to pen 13 mm of armor. Since a 102 mm shell is larger than an 81 mm shell, a 102 mm shell will pen 13 mm armor, and then some.

 

Calculating for IFHE, we find that to shatter a 102 mm IFHE round requires 102 * 1.3 / 6 = 22.1 mm armor. Since ship armor is an integer value, this means that a ship requires 23 mm of armor to shatter 102 mm IFHE. Therefore 102 MM IFHE will pen the Kaiser's fore (19 mm), mid (20 mm) and aft (19 mm) decks as well as its 13 mm superstructure. Without IFHE all you are going to pen is the superstructure.

 

We can confirm this by looking at the penetration formula again. The IFHE shell diameter needed to penetrate 20 mm armor is (20 + 0.5) * 6 / 1.3 = 95 mm (rounded up). Since 102 mm shells are larger than 95 mm shells we can see that the Vampire's 102 mm IFHE can penetrate all of the Kaiser's deck and superstructure.

 

The formulae are presented here:

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration  

 

 

Actually your both right and both wrong.

 

Yes IFHE rounds will penetrate 22.1mm with IFHE, (assuming they don't round that down to 22mm, i'm not sure if we've figured out if they do), however the base pen = 1/6th of shell diameter is an approximation only. Actual HE penetration is set as a whole number on every HE shell rather than calculated by the game engine. In the case of Vampire that value is 17mm.

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2 hours ago, Carl said:

 

Actually your both right and both wrong.

 

No, I am not wrong. Did you look at my link? It is an article by wargaming.

 

There are two ways of looking at arms and armor:

     1. Armor strength required to defeat a certain arm (e.g., shatter a shell in WOWS).

     2. Arm power needed to defeat a certain armor (e.g., penetrate an armor plate in WOWS). 

 

In the article by wargaming, they explore both aspects of the issue, as I did in my previous post.

 

Let's explore what WG says about the issue.

 

Quote

Cleveland has a shell diameter of 152 mm. This gives her a HE penetration of 25.33 mm, which is rounded to 25 mm. Thus, any armor plate of 25 mm or greater will shatter her shells, while armor of 24 mm or lower will be penetrated. With IFHE, the HE penetration increases to 32.93, which is rounded to 33 mm. Thus, with IFHE it would take at least a 33 mm plate to shatter her shells, while armor of 32 mm or lower would be penetrated.

 

Since armor is present as an integer value (i.e., 1,2,3...), WG rounds the shell penetration results. This is taken into account by the "0.5" they place into their armor penetration formula. 

 

Note too that these formulae are for non-British BBs and non-German BBs or CA/CLs, which have more powerful guns.

 

HE shell diameter needed to penetrate 24 mm armor.

(24 + 0.5) * 6 = 147

Since 152  is greater than 147, the Cleveland's 152 mm HE shell will penetrate (i.e., not shatter on) 24 mm armor.

 

HE shell needed to penetrate 25 mm armor.

(25 + 0.5) * 6 = 153

Since 152 is less than 153, the Cleveland's 152 mm HE shell will not penetrate (i.e., shatter on) 25 mm armor.

 

IFHE simply adds 30% to the penetration capacity or takes 30% away from the shatter capacity, whichever way you want to look at it. Therefore, 152 mm IFHE will easily penetrate 25 mm armor. In fact, it will penetrate up to 152 * 1.3 / 6 = 32.93 mm armor. Since armor thickness is presented as an integer value, this means that 33 mm or thicker armor will shatter a 152 mm IFHE shell, whereas said shell will penetrate 32 mm or thinner armor.

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration

 

Edited by Snargfargle

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14 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

 

No, I am not wrong. Did you look at my link? It is an article by wargaming.

 

There are two ways of looking at arms and armor:

     1. Armor strength required to defeat a certain arm (e.g., shatter a shell in WOWS).

     2. Arm power needed to defeat a certain armor (e.g., penetrate an armor plate in WOWS). 

 

In the article by wargaming, they explore both aspects of the issue, as I did in my previous post.

 

Let's explore what WG says about the issue.

 

 

Since armor is present as an integer value (i.e., 1,2,3...), WG rounds the shell penetration results. This is taken into account by the "0.5" they place into their armor penetration formula. 

 

Note too that these formulae are for non-British BBs and non-German BBs or CA/CLs, which have more powerful guns.

 

HE shell diameter needed to penetrate 24 mm armor.

(24 + 0.5) * 6 = 147

Since 152  is greater than 147, the Cleveland's 152 mm HE shell will penetrate (i.e., not shatter on) 24 mm armor.

 

HE shell needed to penetrate 25 mm armor.

(25 + 0.5) * 6 = 153

Since 152 is less than 153, the Cleveland's 152 mm HE shell will not penetrate (i.e., shatter on) 25 mm armor.

 

IFHE simply adds 30% to the penetration capacity or takes 30% away from the shatter capacity, whichever way you want to look at it. Therefore, 152 mm IFHE will easily penetrate 25 mm armor. In fact, it will penetrate up to 152 * 1.3 / 6 = 32.93 mm armor. Since armor thickness is presented as an integer value, this means that 33 mm or thicker armor will shatter a 152 mm IFHE shell, whereas said shell will penetrate 32 mm or thinner armor.

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration

 

 

:Smile_facepalm:

 

Way to completely miss the point.

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I think IFHE on Vampire is meh

Spoiler

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It's only really useful against T4BB, while you don't need it for T2/3 ships at all. T4 DD and CL still take damage from your guns.

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11 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

I think IFHE on Vampire is meh

  Hide contents

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It's only really useful against T4BB, while you don't need it for T2/3 ships at all. T4 DD and CL still take damage from your guns.

I saw this in the other thread. Thank's for providing it. While it is true that one has to be discerning about distributing commander skill points, I think IFHE on any ship with shells less than 203 mm is worthwhile. The Vampire is a fast-firing ship with a long smoke duration and can cause quite a bit of damage to tier IV BBs with IFHE. Conversely, without IFHE it hardly does any damage to them at all because it has very limited fire starting capacity and can't pen anything but the superstructure on most of the tier IV BBs. Now, the alternative might be to go stealth and try to torpedo tier IV battleships at max range but the Vamp's torps are rather slow and it's hard to hit a target from that distance. What I've been doing is to run in to 4 km or less, torp the BB and then pop smoke and shoot. The Vamp has a 2 km detection in smoke even when firing its guns. 

Edited by Snargfargle

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5 hours ago, Canadatron said:

Oh the high price of clubbing....

 

I'm interested in Vampire simply because I enjoy low tier DD play, more specifically ANTI-DD play (which it does well at), and I'm wanting a Commonwealth trainer for when the Haida comes.  I'll pick it up.

It's worth it, if for no other reason than starting off with 6 points on your Haida captain.  The Vampire is actually a ton of fun if you like gunslingers.  The torpedo performance leaves much to be desired, but if you just want to spam guns like say, a Sims or a Kidd, she's great fun.  With all of the low tier PA DDs out there presently, there's a lot of prey for Vampires right now.  I made the mistake of taking my Campbeltown out, ran into a Vampire and it was not pleasant.  I got away and did some damage with my own guns, but if I would have stuck around, he'd have ended me.  I tried to just stay away from him, I didn't want what he was dealing. 

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1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

 

You have me baffled here. What point are you trying to make?

 

Sigh.

 

I was trying to provide a useful bit of info whilst mildly snarking at you two's "no i'm right" moment.

 

Screenshot time:

 

NlbhJvr.png

 

You see that red circled number. That the HE pen of the shell. The game does not calculate the HE pen of a shell based on it's calibre, it just reads it off the shell data. I was just pointing this out by snarking at you two by pointing out all that math about how the game determines HE shell pen is, very strictly speaking, wrong, because the game doesn't calculate it, it just reads it off the shell data. (Those calculations are however how WG'ing determines what value to set this number to).

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13 minutes ago, Carl said:

 

Sigh.

 

I was trying to provide a useful bit of info whilst mildly snarking at you two's "no i'm right" moment.

 

Screenshot time:

 

NlbhJvr.png

 

You see that red circled number. That the HE pen of the shell. The game does not calculate the HE pen of a shell based on it's calibre, it just reads it off the shell data. I was just pointing this out by snarking at you two by pointing out all that math about how the game determines HE shell pen is, very strictly speaking, wrong, because the game doesn't calculate it, it just reads it off the shell data. (Those calculations are however how WG'ing determines what value to set this number to).

 

Have you ever done any programming? What is easier to do, create a table of individual values for each and every entity or write a common formula? WG itself has stated how it calculates shatter and penetration. This is a thread where people are trying to understand the inner workings of the game. Please take your snarkiness elsewhere, there are plenty of frivolous threads where it could be put to better use. 

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