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IvanPonomarev

Fix the Game Broken Mechanics

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Wargaming it’s awesome that you are managing to pump out great context and ships, great! However you got some lingering in client issues and mechanics that need some work. First off we are patching up the leaking ship for CVs. When are we going to patch the issues with battleship normal penning dds? I’m in my Grozovoi and get hit 1 salvo normal Pen down to 2900 from normal health. Why is battleship HE even needed (part from British)?????? Client crashes. In important moments in a battle. Is optimization even important? How about better resolutions and better display? All the money dumped in and we still can’t do basic services.

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5 minutes ago, IvanPonomarev said:

When are we going to patch the issues with battleship normal penning dds?

Pretty sure this is being looked at now. I heard something about addressing AP damage to DDs. I think it's in testing? 

 

6 minutes ago, IvanPonomarev said:

Why is battleship HE even needed (part from British)?

HE is a valid option for BBs, especially when facing an angled or bow-on target, one that's too far away to pen reliably, or one that's two tiers up and likely to resist your lower caliber guns. Also, it'll be needed if they address your first point with AP and DDs. 

 

7 minutes ago, IvanPonomarev said:

Client crashes. In important moments in a battle. Is optimization even important?

More often than not, software crashes are on your end especially when the majority of users aren't experiencing it. Update your drivers. Scan for malware. Etc etc... 

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I seriously doubt that BBs are getting regular pen damage on DDs as often as the DD players think. I think what we are actually seeing is one maybe two regular pens and around 3-5 overpens. I am on the opposite end of those BB guns often enough to know that at best, I've only ever gotten 3 regular pens on one DD. The thing that a lot of DD mains forget, is they are in the smallest ships in the game, with the smallest health pools. At that point even the 10% damage from overpenning BB shells is devastating. If you were taking more than 2 regular pens in a salvo, you'd be dead, rather than crippled. Take Amagi's shells for instance, at 12,600 max damage from AP, you get a 10% overpen damage of 1,260. Multiply that by 4 for 4 hits and you get 5,040. Toss in one 33% regular pen for 4,158 and your total is 9,198, a devastating hit for any DD. Considering that, and keeping things at tier 8, a Kiev has 16,200 HP. 16,200-9,198=7,002, you've gone and lost over half of your health with over half of that coming from overpens rather than regular pens. I also don't buy into the idea of making DDs immune to BB regular pens, because about the only way to get regular pens on all DDs that aren't Khabarovsk, is if you hit them lengthwise down the bow or stern. That is a lot of steel plating to crash through, slowing down the shell and the fuse in the shell only delays it for so long. Khabarovsk, on the other hand, has that 50mm plate along her sides which can cause some interesting effects when shot at with AP. I've detonated a Khabarovsk with Yamato AP by hitting that side plate just right.

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I'm honestly just sick of the lazy gimp of being burned to death.

 

 

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1 hour ago, IvanPonomarev said:

Client crashes. In important moments in a battle. Is optimization even important?

I had this problem.  Turned out to be a bad video card.  Replaced the cheap-a$$ card with another cheap-a$$ card and now it's solid as a rock.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, CaptHarlock_222 said:

I seriously doubt that BBs are getting regular pen damage on DDs as often as the DD players think

There is a problem.  Sub-Octavian acknowledges that WG is aware and working on it.

 

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1 hour ago, IvanPonomarev said:

Wargaming it’s awesome that you are managing to pump out great context and ships, great! However you got some lingering in client issues and mechanics that need some work. First off we are patching up the leaking ship for CVs. When are we going to patch the issues with battleship normal penning dds? I’m in my Grozovoi and get hit 1 salvo normal Pen down to 2900 from normal health. Why is battleship HE even needed (part from British)?????? Client crashes. In important moments in a battle. Is optimization even important? How about better resolutions and better display? All the money dumped in and we still can’t do basic services.

I used to have major stuttering problems (not my speech, i think), where i'd get consistent microstuttering every second or so. Really bad second long stutters during heavy action...Occasional crashes during heavy action. I ran Latency Mon, turned out it was my motherboard audio drivers.... Uninstalled them, don't need, due to audio going thru nvidia HDMI... Runs butter smooth at 120fps with the framerate mod now.

I bet your problem is something like that, something in the background...

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All I have to go on are my own observations. I just see way more overpens than regular pens. To a degree, I have a dog on both sides of this fight as I try to play everything that isn't a CV. I can see both sides of the argument, but I also like to keep track of my hit indicators when I shoot. More often than not, when I fire BB AP at DDs, I get a bunch of overpens that devastate the DD's health pool. It would be helpful for this issue if there was a way to indicate to the person that got hit what kind of hit it was, overpen, shatter, bounce, or regular pen. Personally, I prefer to switch to HE if I think I can afford the reload time, but quite often I don't have the time and some damage is better than none. Sometimes it works out that RNG is more in my favor than usual and I get regular pens, but pretty much only if the DD is bow or stern on to me.

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8 minutes ago, HorrorRoach said:

I used to have major stuttering problems (not my speech, i think), where i'd get consistent microstuttering every second or so. Really bad second long stutters during heavy action...Occasional crashes during heavy action. I ran Latency Mon, turned out it was my motherboard audio drivers.... Uninstalled them, don't need, due to audio going thru nvidia HDMI... Runs butter smooth at 120fps with the framerate mod now.

I bet your problem is something like that, something in the background...

There's a mod to go over the fps cap?? Is it cool to use I must have this since I can't play at anything higher then 1080p because it makes the his to small and I can't read it but my TV can do 4K 60 fps or 1080 at 120fps.

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Way I see it is, a destroyer is a ship,,, Sure it's slimmer than a normal ship, smaller ect,ect. But don't they also have the same systems that a bigger ship has? Boiler, Engine room, reduction gear, fuel compartments, HP water/steam piping, ammo storage, CIC, Aft steering. So when a BB shell over penetrates, and doesn't hit a critical area, it will STILL HIT some of these systems most of the time. Sure it can pass through some bulkheads, with catastrophic damage to EVERYTHING around it. So these DD drivers that don't like taking over pen hits and losing health,, come on,,,,,,,,,,, I'm a DD driver and I (after 20 years in the navy) understand that high velocity shells will ALWAYS do damage. Last time I checked, you shoot a shell into an engine block, the engine stops. 

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6 minutes ago, Kunra_1 said:

There's a mod to go over the fps cap?? Is it cool to use I must have this since I can't play at anything higher then 1080p because it makes the his to small and I can't read it but my TV can do 4K 60 fps or 1080 at 120fps.

sweet, it's in the aslain's mod near the bottom of the list. I believe the max you can set it to is 144fps

 

http://aslain.com/index.php?/topic/2020-06131-aslains-wows-modpack-installer-wpicture-preview/

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I know they are looking to tweak it, but I hope they don't nerf BB AP damage to DDs too much.  Case in point, was assisting our DD in capping with my MO recently.  Our DD gets killed.  From 5.8k away a Fletcher charges me head on, at or near full health (radar was on cooldown).  I only have time for 1 volley before he will be right on top of me.  Luckily I get multiple AP shell hits on the bow and he is destroyed.

 

With any stretch of logic that is exactly what should have happened.  Even 1 - 16" shell going through a Fletcher bow to stern would do massive damage to it and most likely leave it a wreck.

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1 hour ago, IvanPonomarev said:

Wargaming it’s awesome that you are managing to pump out great context and ships, great! However you got some lingering in client issues and mechanics that need some work. First off we are patching up the leaking ship for CVs. When are we going to patch the issues with battleship normal penning dds? I’m in my Grozovoi and get hit 1 salvo normal Pen down to 2900 from normal health. Why is battleship HE even needed (part from British)?????? Client crashes. In important moments in a battle. Is optimization even important? How about better resolutions and better display? All the money dumped in and we still can’t do basic services.

 

Their way of fixing a broken game is adding more premium ships to charge you money for, hoping you'll buy/play them long enough to forget the fact that the game is broken.

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22 minutes ago, HorrorRoach said:

sweet, it's in the aslain's mod near the bottom of the list. I believe the max you can set it to is 144fps

 

http://aslain.com/index.php?/topic/2020-06131-aslains-wows-modpack-installer-wpicture-preview/

Cool thank you I'll be putting that on asap. 

 

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1 minute ago, DreadRaybo said:

I know they are looking to tweak it, but I hope they don't nerf BB AP damage to DDs too much.  Case in point, was assisting our DD in capping with my MO recently.  Our DD gets killed.  From 5.8k away a Fletcher charges me head on, at or near full health (radar was on cooldown).  I only have time for 1 volley before he will be right on top of me.  Luckily I get multiple AP shell hits on the bow and he is destroyed.

 

With any stretch of logic that is exactly what should have happened.  Even 1 - 16" shell going through a Fletcher bow to stern would do massive damage to it and most likely leave it a wreck.

^That. Damage done modified to reflect ray path; meaning the path the shell takes as it travels through the hull. Taking hits along a significant portion of your ships long axis should hurt. Likewise having a 14-18" tunnel suddenly appear across your ship won't be nearly as fatal as lengthwise; but it won't feel good either. 

 

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To answer to post my personal feeling is that the changes to BB dmg to DDs is needed. I know people are going to complain about realism but this is not a sim it's more of a hybrid. There has to be balance and right now to me it's not and I'm assuming WG feels the same. 

 

As it's supposed to be it's DD beats BB, Cl/CA beats DD, BB beats Cl/CA, and CV is all around strong and weak to everyone. 

 

I feel that WG is getting it right with making BBs AP rounds only doing over pens on DDs, they should need to switch to HE rounds in order to confront DDs. This still gives you the option to unload and then switch to HE. I've personally noticed that BBs become very accurate the higher up you go when in range of torpedoes.

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9 minutes ago, Kunra_1 said:

Cool thank you I'll be putting that on asap. 

 

You should wait til after the patch drops tomorrow, or you'll be doing it all over again. Patches always break mods.

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43 minutes ago, Alien_Observer said:

Way I see it is, a destroyer is a ship,,, Sure it's slimmer than a normal ship, smaller ect,ect. But don't they also have the same systems that a bigger ship has? Boiler, Engine room, reduction gear, fuel compartments, HP water/steam piping, ammo storage, CIC, Aft steering. So when a BB shell over penetrates, and doesn't hit a critical area, it will STILL HIT some of these systems most of the time. Sure it can pass through some bulkheads, with catastrophic damage to EVERYTHING around it. So these DD drivers that don't like taking over pen hits and losing health,, come on,,,,,,,,,,, I'm a DD driver and I (after 20 years in the navy) understand that high velocity shells will ALWAYS do damage. Last time I checked, you shoot a shell into an engine block, the engine stops. 

Unfortunately, history and real life doesn't apply much when the problem is is that this is a game and needs to be balanced. BB AP was never intended to be used against DD's to greater effectiveness than HE. As such, as BB players started realizing they could deal more damage to a DD with AP when they were angled from 1 penetration and get more damage, they started intentionally shooting dd's with AP. The point was that BB players were supposed to have to make decisions about what ammo to load. If they think there is a dd lurking about they would have HE loaded and because of that conscience decision, be unable to punish broadside cruisers and vice versa.

 

Let's run the numbers for you so that you are aware how OP this is:

Iowa, T9 battleship.

HE shell maxiimum damage: 5700

AP shell maximum damage: 13500

an HE pen gives 1710 damage to an unsaturated target

an AP pen gives 4050 damage to an unsaturated target

An AP overpen gives 1350 damage to an unsaturated target.

 

Any BB player I know that is worth his salt purposely runs AP because the damage difference between an AP overpen and the HE pen is not too bad and the chance of gettinig a full pen on AP more than makes up for that difference. 1 AP overpen is 80% of an HE pen. 1 AP pen is worth 2.36 HE pens. Why should the BB player get awy with being able to murder destroyers and cruisers with the same shell type when that was never intended???

 

If you want to get maximum damage on a destroyer, you run HE and if you want to maximize damage on cruisers and BB's you run AP.

 

Lets take your logical real world argument to the next level. IRL there is more explosives in an HE shell than an AP shell (you were in the navy, you should be able to realize this), yet in this game it is reversed. Every BB HE shell pretty much penetrates every DD and explodes. They SHOULD be doing more damage than an AP shell even if it fused. So your argument using real life example is null and void in this game. HE should do more damage.

Edited by Ducky_shot
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3 hours ago, Ducky_shot said:

Lets take your logical real world argument to the next level. IRL there is more explosives in an HE shell than an AP shell (you were in the navy, you should be able to realize this), yet in this game it is reversed. Every BB HE shell pretty much penetrates every DD and explodes. They SHOULD be doing more damage than an AP shell even if it fused. So your argument using real life example is null and void in this game. HE should do more damage.

Then give BB HE greater effectiveness on DDs and DDs only, given that they are unarmored, to make it worth the time to switch. The main reason why I would continue using AP on a DD even now is if I think it is either not worth the time to reload or there are other more armored threats around to deal with as well. I'd also argue that nerfing overpen damage is a problem in and of itself. I get overpens on everything, BBs, CAs, CLs, DDs, and CVs, sometimes half of my shots are overpens and globally reducing the damage they do would seriously affect my ability to help make the difference for my team. I don't think that overpens are even the issue, most of the complaints I hear are about regular pens. I suggest doing a bit of testing for yourselves, enable training rooms and take a BB against a bunch inactive of same tier DDs. Try both ammo types at various angles and distances, make a note of if your hit indicator shows them to be regular pens, overpens, bounces, or shatters. I did just that earlier today and I got plenty of overpens with AP, with DDs both broadside and bow on. The only times I got regular pens was when the DD was end on to me or, with certain Russian and German DDs, at an angle, which is exactly when I should be getting regular pens just based on how much ship the shell has to pass through. I think part of the issue is more that BBs are meant to be reliant on the CLs, DDs, CVs, and sometimes CAs on their team to deal with enemy DDs, and this being on online game, that doesn't happen very often.

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2 hours ago, CaptHarlock_222 said:

Then give BB HE greater effectiveness on DDs and DDs only, given that they are unarmored, to make it worth the time to switch. The main reason why I would continue using AP on a DD even now is if I think it is either not worth the time to reload or there are other more armored threats around to deal with as well. I'd also argue that nerfing overpen damage is a problem in and of itself. I get overpens on everything, BBs, CAs, CLs, DDs, and CVs, sometimes half of my shots are overpens and globally reducing the damage they do would seriously affect my ability to help make the difference for my team. I don't think that overpens are even the issue, most of the complaints I hear are about regular pens. I suggest doing a bit of testing for yourselves, enable training rooms and take a BB against a bunch inactive of same tier DDs. Try both ammo types at various angles and distances, make a note of if your hit indicator shows them to be regular pens, overpens, bounces, or shatters. I did just that earlier today and I got plenty of overpens with AP, with DDs both broadside and bow on. The only times I got regular pens was when the DD was end on to me or, with certain Russian and German DDs, at an angle, which is exactly when I should be getting regular pens just based on how much ship the shell has to pass through. I think part of the issue is more that BBs are meant to be reliant on the CLs, DDs, CVs, and sometimes CAs on their team to deal with enemy DDs, and this being on online game, that doesn't happen very often.

I wasn't arguing overpens, I was arguing the AP pens. I was just stating that if he wanted to use real world logic about the shell passing through the ship doing piles of damage, I was just pointing out that there are more explosives in an HE shell than an AP shell... so according to his logic, IRL HE should do more damage than AP to a lightly armored target, but he is trying to argue that AP is fine the way it is cause in the rel world it would do that, when in reality it would not.

 

I'm a decent enough BB player and I rarely think about loading HE for dd's. I'll just wait for them to start to turn before firing. If I know the next target I'm absolutely going to shoot at will be a DD, I'll load it, but if unsure, I'll keep AP loaded. So basically, if there iis only a dd left on my area of the map, I'll load HE... II'm not going to waste 30 seconds when at worst I'm goiing to do 80% of the damage I would have down with HE and at best, dev strike the dd with a couple ap pens. 

Edited by Ducky_shot

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So if Cruisers and DDs are shooting at you angle away, if a BB is shooting at you, you should give full broadside.

Edited by Final8ty

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There is no reason to fire HE at DDs in a BB. Worst case the overpens do similar damage to HE and often you'll get at least one pen. HE can't compare to that.

 

Yes, even on a broadside DD.  There only trick is your aim needs to slightly better with AP.  HE only needs to be in the same zip code, AP needs to actually connect.

 

They promised to make sure BBs would stop getting pens on DDs a while back, not sure what happened to that.  It's WG so it could happen a year and a half from now.

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