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Kongo_Pride

Matchmaker in Clan Wars might need a relook

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In ranked, there are groupings, for advancement along the progression.  In Clan Wars there seems to be similar system in place.  This looks to be Typhoon, Storm, Gale, and Squall.  As for ranked, there is 2-5, 6-10, 11-15, etc.  The critical difference is that in ranked, a 14 will never be placed into a match against 2-5 ranked players.  In Clan Wars, there is no blocking system, you seem to be facing whoever is available.

This last week, we have been working our secondary group of clan members through the system, in an attempt to give them training on competitive play, and assess them, and see how far they could get.  Unfortunately, we quickly learned that the categories do not mean jack-all when it comes to matchmaking.  There is no protected status.  While in Squall we faced several typhoon teams, but it was sporadic, so we were able to advance (and even win a couple of matches).

Then we hit gale, and the real storm began.  We were expecting a tough fight.  What we got was pulverized.

Of the 10 matches our Gale team had tonight, 7 of them were in Typhoon, 1 was in Storm, and 2 were teams were should have actually been facing.  Needless to say, we ended the night with a 40% win rate.  We also ended the night +47 points higher than where we started.  This math doesn't add up when we had a losing record. (Note.  I am aware of the varied point system based on strength of opponent.)

Not sure if this is normal, but it sure doesn't feel normal.  And if this is the case, what is the primary point to having separate leagues?  

As always, thoughts from the community are welcome.  I am concerned that teams of lesser skilled players may become discouraged and quit after facing such an onslaught/overwhelming target deck while entering Squall or Gale.

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This should surprise no one.

WG saw it coming, and did everything they could to avoid it, shorter hours, 4 days/week, smaller teams but it's already started.

These average clans just trying to find warm bodies to fill a slot are going to get slammed by far superior players, the problem lies in the lack of player involvement, and will only get worse once the weeding out process hits full stride.

Interleague play was never a good idea. But WG feared game play would dry up in the upper leagues, so they did it anyway. They should have realized the adverse affect it will have on lower leagues, but I would assume they have many whales in the upper leagues. :Smile_teethhappy:

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It's more a case of there being less players to make a match with than during ranked battles. This is why you can see teams from other leagues to make sure wait times arent crazy.

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From my experience it seems to put you against higher ranked teams when your having a winning streak. It can really smack you down pretty hard after having a lot of wins when you suddenly start seeing clans from higher leagues.  But the points lost/gained also change based on their rating vs yours. So losing to a typhoon clan doesn't knock you down much while winning can really pay off. Ultimately I don't real have any major issues with the way it seems to work.

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What i find funny about this CB season is all the movement between sub clans.  Why would a clan move a 7 man team to an empty sub clan?

 

A) To farm it for easy points or,

B) Artificially inflate their personal win rates by seal clubbing sub-typhoon teams.

C) To fight teams without risking their points, but still chunking 30 points off top teams.

 

Either way it is disgusting.  Clearly "Setting the meta"

Edited by Filmore_Slim
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Haven't even played a Clan battle doesn't seem fun, too serious. In a Clan with friends and never enough to make a team at any given moment anyway. Like Ranked battles, another not fun to play mode. Random is getting boring too. Scenarios same thing over and over. Match maker is wonky. Fortnite Battle Royale is looking better and better, The teamwork is way better for sure.

Edited by Sovereigndawg
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6 minutes ago, Filmore_Slim said:

What i find funny about this CB season is all the movement between sub clans.  Why would a clan move a 7 man team to an empty sub clan?

 

A) To farm it for easy points or,

B) Artificially inflate their personal win rates by seal clubbing sub-typhoon teams.

 

Either way it is disgusting.  Clearly "Setting the meta"

Why do clans need to keep moving their players?  Why not just play the game with who you have?  Line up against your opposition and if you're better you win.  Simple as that.

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Just now, bfk_ferlyfe said:

Why do clans need to keep moving their players?  Why not just play the game with who you have?  Line up against your opposition and if you're better you win.  Simple as that.

It is all part of "setting the meta"

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3 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Haven't even played a Clan battle doesn't seem fun, too serious. In a Clan with friends and never enough to make a team at any given moment anyway. Like Ranked battles, another not fun to play mode. Random is getting boring too. Scenarios same thing over and over. Match maker is wonky. Fortnite Battle Royale is looking better and better, The teamwork is way better for sure.

Clan battles are a lot of fun.
Clan matchmaking, clans with multiple teams, clan rankings, etc.... not so much fun. 

What's especially rough is knowing that, no one but the top 10 or so clans have a shot at the ship. Because they will continue to crush everyone else through clan sub teams. Get just enough super unicum people onto a team so that they can always win and carry the rest of their clan to victory. While the non-prime clans sometimes struggle to field enough people to play in an evening. 

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3 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

Clan battles are a lot of fun.
Clan matchmaking, clans with multiple teams, clan rankings, etc.... not so much fun. 

What's especially rough is knowing that, no one but the top 10 or so clans have a shot at the ship. Because they will continue to crush everyone else through clan sub teams. Get just enough super unicum people onto a team so that they can always win and carry the rest of their clan to victory. While the non-prime clans sometimes struggle to field enough people to play in an evening. 

As it should be. Stalingrad is not a participation trophy. It is a reward for being good. Also, you can't carry the rest of the clan to victory. It has to be 15 individual wins for each player, for that player to get the flag.

Edited by Feminist
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7 minutes ago, Filmore_Slim said:

It is all part of "setting the meta"

Padding clan war winrates is setting the meta?

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3 minutes ago, OgreMkV said:

What's especially rough is knowing that, no one but the top 10 or so clans have a shot at the ship.

Who woulda thought 

FGTLNJq.png

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2 hours ago, KongoPride said:

As always, thoughts from the community are welcome.  I am concerned that teams of lesser skilled players may become discouraged and quit after facing such an onslaught/overwhelming target deck while entering Squall or Gale.

POPCORN faced a similar scenario this last night, eiher steamrolling or being steamrolled, in either case, by teams well above our skill level, or far far below. Too few close run battles (the ones you really enjoy, win or lose). 

And the playoffs... out of 5, we seem to have spent all our time playing against teams that had just dropped down a league. Honestly, if a clan drops down a league (due to inactivity for example)  they should be forced into a cooloff cooldown period of say a week before they are allowed to enter playoffs again.:Smile_popcorn:

Just to add to this, we have been stuck in playoff purgatory of the same league for the past month, fighting one clone/spin off clan after another followed by a relegated clan, a revolving door.

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Stalingrad is not a participation trophy and you can't get carried there like ranked. Get good or keep trying.

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2 hours ago, Anumati said:

Stalingrad is not a participation trophy and you can't get carried there like ranked. Get good or keep trying.

I think the ranked reward ships excluding flint will be more exclusive.

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3 hours ago, Feminist said:

As it should be. Stalingrad is not a participation trophy. It is a reward for being good. Also, you can't carry the rest of the clan to victory. It has to be 15 individual wins for each player, for that player to get the flag.

This ^^^^^ 100% this^^^^. 

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 The MM is kinda [edited] up but WG never really gave a crapabout explaining how it works so it could be working as intended for all I know.

 

 

"Clan Battles" Matchmaking: 

  • Your Clan's ranking is factored into the process
  • Your Division is matched up based on Clan's League and group
  • Your Division can't be matched against a Division you just fought
  • Divisions from the same Clan won't be matched against each other

 

  Very vague explanation by WG, thankfully we now know what they really mean:

  • Your Clan's ranking is factored into the process to a minimum.
  • Your Division is matched up based on Clan's League and group, for example a Squall clan will meet Typhoon clans - this is for balance.

 

 

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As long as we each get our 3 oils for the match day, we are OK.

Folks in my clan realize it's not likely we will be in the top 10..  sooooo..  Once we do our bit to build the port..

Why suffer the abuse. 

Heck, we've even found a way to say, 'screw it' and have fun for a couple battles at the end of the session.

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11 hours ago, KongoPride said:

Not sure if this is normal, but it sure doesn't feel normal.  And if this is the case, what is the primary point to having separate leagues?

The real core of the system is almost certainly an MMR-style hidden rating (think Blizzard or DOTA2). Leagues are only there to act as indicators and performance-accumulators for issuing rewards.

That said, the fact that you're gaining points despite having a losing record means you're beating the odds, and moving up accordingly. I agree that it feels weird to have to do it by taking odd games off high-division teams, but that may actually be true to the way the population skill curve is shaped -- WoWS may very well have no "middle class" of players, only potatoes and unicums. If that's the case, then the only matches to be had are from people significantly higher or significantly lower in skill.

 

11 hours ago, OgreMkV said:

What's especially rough is knowing that, no one but the top 10 or so clans have a shot at the ship.

Give that there are 23 clans in Typhoon I alone, I'd say your estimate is pretty darn far off.

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Having played in several of these games it went from well this should be fun, to, this will be a challenge, to, whats the freaking point... Many of these games were dropped in sub 30 sec wait time, so there is no internal timer for MM, it finds a match, any match, any league and slaps it together. I would have rather waited a few minutes for a more even match. 

 

We have several guys trying to train us in competitive play, but when you get steam rolled it doesn't leave a lot of time for teaching and tends to cause frustration in both the teachers and the learners. I fail to see how this is good for anyone, do the Typhoon 1 teams really want gamble their points / waste their time on lower skilled / lowered tiered teams? WG needs to do a better job about MM.

 

Another issue WG needs to consider, if they are concerned about participation, is reputation. If you keep [edited]people over, they will remember and they will not participate. If there aren't enough people playing then no one will get a game and people will stop playing altogether.

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59 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

The real core of the system is almost certainly an MMR-style hidden rating (think Blizzard or DOTA2). Leagues are only there to act as indicators and performance-accumulators for issuing rewards.

That said, the fact that you're gaining points despite having a losing record means you're beating the odds, and moving up accordingly. I agree that it feels weird to have to do it by taking odd games off high-division teams, but that may actually be true to the way the population skill curve is shaped -- WoWS may very well have no "middle class" of players, only potatoes and unicums. If that's the case, then the only matches to be had are from people significantly higher or significantly lower in skill.

Our clan is what I would describe as being upper middle class (if skill level was adjusted to economics).  Most of the players that are participating have a WTR between 1200-1450.  Those above 1400 are the trainers, and those below are in training so that they can reach unicum status as well as learn the fundamentals of competitive play, both in advancement for clan wars this season, but also progressing to the next and beyond to Supremacy League.  Like any economy, eventually the middle class gets screwed, because they steam roll the poorer players, but are dominated by the higher tier players with entire division makeups consisting of players in the top 10% on the server.  

Good post +1.

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16 hours ago, OgreMkV said:

Clan battles are a lot of fun.

The mode can have its moments, for one or perhaps two days a week of four, but even during those three hours too many battles are the same as random/ranked; overly static smoke-swapping torp-soup camp-fests.

.... this was supposed to be about aggregate skill & gameplay? - just seems like more of the same ol, same ol to me.

Edited by Soylent_Red_Isnt_People

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15 minutes ago, Soylent_Red_Isnt_People said:

too many battles are the same as random/ranked; overly static smoke-swapping torp-soup camp-fests.

I'm not doubting what you're saying, but I am very surprised to hear that you're seeing such a different meta. I'm used to seeing 0-1 destroyer on a team, and island camping as an easy way to get flanked and/or bombarded from someplace you can't shoot back at.

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Strange i have not seen a post about being in an upper league and loosing to a team from a lower league.

Which does happen about as much as the way you are saying lower league teams get smacked around by uppers

If you want those players trying to improve their skills and tactics as they move up then you want them to face much better teams.

Nothing like having a boost of confidence when your team is in group 1 of storm and you beat a team from group 2 of typhoon.

 

 

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