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FleetAdmiral_Assassin

Fletcher vs Z23, Z46, Z52

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Has anyone else had this issue, because I'm finding it quite annoying. My Fletcher can't seem to hurt German DDs. 

 

Day before yesterday, I fought a Z-46 at mid-range. He was firing at another player, I was trying to take him out. I hit him over 50 times with a combination of HE and AP, yet he still had 75% of his health (and took me out). Today, I just fought a Z-23. I hit him 30 times with HE and barely scratched his paint (took out his engines, steering and torps - but did almost no damage from 30 hits). WTH After he killed me, I watched our Gearing pick up where I left off. Gearing was firing AP and again, was barely scratching him (he killed the already hurt Gearing as well).

 

In the case of the Z-46 he was traveling away from me (I was chasing him). In the case of the Z-23 we were both broadside to each other.

 

It isn't just these two cases, every time my Fletcher tries to hit a German DD of Tier 8-10, i have no problem hitting them, I just can't damage them.

 

Anyone else having this issue?

Edited by FleetAdmiral_Assassin

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I dunno. I can't recall feeling like I've struggled to dmg the high tier German DDs with the USN 127s, but maybe I'm just forgetting about it. You probably already know this from the sounds of your post, but for me, if I'm in a high tier USN DD (or Russian as well), cruiser rules take over when I fight with a high tier DD that is also fat (so all the German ones, all the Russian ones, and the Gearing [maybe Fletcher too depending on situation]). HE when he's angled, HE to the superstructure, bow and stern, and AP for "citadel" shots, and nice meaty AP pens. The German ones die super fast to that, and so does the Khaba (thanks be to that stupid stupid stupid 50mm plate it gets). /shrug

 

I will say tho, that if you're hitting (and knocking out) lots of modules, that could explain the small damage numbers. The modules may very well be eating the shells and the damage, leaving the entire ship's hp pool untouched, but sapping the hp from the modules. (someone correct me here if I'm wrong, I'm probably not up to snuff on the mechanics involved here)

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IMO, you shouldn't fire AP at destroyers as a USN DD. USN DD AP has pretty poor damage, and plus, the enemy can always angle and auto-bounce your shells. 

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Never ever had trouble with them: First you should not be contesting or within 5km of them when they're known to have hydro ready. Second don't sit in your smoke when they can hydro you. You might want to wait before capping so you can spot them, you outspot them. 

 

If they don't have hydro, then within 7km your guns SHRED them. No contest. Fletcher wins. Use HE. 

Their guns don't turn fast enough, nor do they fire fast enough. 

 

Avoid their torps. Avoid trying to torp them if they have hydro. 

 

All this is predicated on you knowing when they have hydro... Try a Lo Yang or a KM DD with hydro and you'll start to figure out when they have it. 

 

Reminder that their smoke is trashy. Their guns are better at mid range. You outspot them, but they have hydro. Avoid the hydro. Tada. 

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19 hours ago, Aduial said:

IMO, you shouldn't fire AP at destroyers as a USN DD. USN DD AP has pretty poor damage, and plus, the enemy can always angle and auto-bounce your shells. 

 

I have to agree with this. I've tried it and I get pitiful results every time, so I now just use HE on US DDs and forget about AP.

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I would have to say with this last patch I have to be right on target with my guns or they miss I think they tweaked it a little bit maybe if you're really experience player they make it where you can't hit a dang thing and if your a noob  you just have to shoot in the general direction and you hit

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On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 5:52 PM, FleetAdmiral_Assassin said:

Anyone else having this issue?

Yes, but I'm on the German side of this and I'm loving it!

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On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 2:36 AM, BlailBlerg said:

No contest. Fletcher wins. Use HE. 

Their guns don't turn fast enough, nor do they fire fast enough. 

My Z-46 would like very much to disagree with that.

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shoot em shoot em shoot em and no damage I see the exact same thing . T9 & T10 German DDs has 6 guns so If I see them with my Fletcher I do not fight them .You are out gunned ! 

Shoot a Z 23 and it's like hits you see happening just disappear while you keep getting pounded on . I just torp them now forget shooting them .

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9 hours ago, Capt_Q_Sparrow said:

shoot em shoot em shoot em and no damage I see the exact same thing . T9 & T10 German DDs has 6 guns so If I see them with my Fletcher I do not fight them .You are out gunned ! 

Shoot a Z 23 and it's like hits you see happening just disappear while you keep getting pounded on . I just torp them now forget shooting them .

You're definitely not outgunned. A Fletcher can beat a Z-46 in a fair gunfight, as long as you don't stay broadside and get punished with AP, because German AP hurts. 

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His 6 guns more than make up for my very slight  reload advantage . Fletcher is out gunned by a Z46  reload difference is not a factor . his double turrets hit for twice what a fletcher single gun does . I won't fight them . better success smoking running and torping  not going to stick around let him smoke and long range sonar me . Add in the hits that mysteriously do no damage and it's a losing proposition to get in a gun fight with it .

 

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On 11/27/2017 at 3:36 AM, BlailBlerg said:

Never ever had trouble with them: First you should not be contesting or within 5km of them when they're known to have hydro ready. Second don't sit in your smoke when they can hydro you. You might want to wait before capping so you can spot them, you outspot them. 

 

If they don't have hydro, then within 7km your guns SHRED them. No contest. Fletcher wins. Use HE. 

Their guns don't turn fast enough, nor do they fire fast enough. 

 

Avoid their torps. Avoid trying to torp them if they have hydro. 

 

All this is predicated on you knowing when they have hydro... Try a Lo Yang or a KM DD with hydro and you'll start to figure out when they have it. 

 

Reminder that their smoke is trashy. Their guns are better at mid range. You outspot them, but they have hydro. Avoid the hydro. Tada. 

 The gun turn is faster  but that only really matters within 3km or so. and the 1 sec on rof can make a difference but the AP from the KM DD's can kill a USN DD faster than the HE from a USN DD can kill a KM DD. This happens quite often, about 75% of the time I will kill a Gearing and end up at roughly 50% health. This is because of the max potential damage each ships has per Volley. 18,000 for the Z-52 using AP vs 10,800 HE or 12,600 AP for the Gearing. In a quick short ranged Battle the Z-52 will usually win. A longer ranged battle where the max damage falls off with higher miss rate, the Gearing prevails. From 3-8 km the Z has the advantage in a big way. 0-3 km & 8-12 km Gearing, beyond that they are about equal. Picking your engagement range is crucial vs KM DD's. Now the pan Asian "Just say No" to going against KM DD's the deep water torps sort of screw's them.

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I think it is just bad aim.

Fletcher will absolutely demolish a Z-23

In fact, Z-23 is so garbage, that a C-hull Benson can still obliterate it

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On 11/27/2017 at 2:21 PM, sbcptnitro said:

 

I have to agree with this. I've tried it and I get pitiful results every time, so I now just use HE on US DDs and forget about AP.

AP can work, but it need to be point blank range and broadside.    I was hitting gearing with ap and was getting 1800 point volley so it can work.    any angle and it doesn't work. 

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Well, I drive a Fletcher.  I also have a Z52, but I just got it.  And, of course, I drove Z23 and Z46 before Z52.  It's been my experience that I pretty much die from gunfire in any of them if I'm spotted.  Although the Z46 and Z52 have enough hit points that I can sometimes survive if I jump behind smoke or an island quickly enough.

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23 hours ago, centarina said:

AP can work, but it need to be point blank range and broadside.    I was hitting gearing with ap and was getting 1800 point volley so it can work.    any angle and it doesn't work. 

I get close to 6k salvoes on meaty parts of Gearing with Z-52 and Z-46 firing AP. 

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On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 3:43 PM, MrDeaf said:

I think it is just bad aim.

Fletcher will absolutely demolish a Z-23

In fact, Z-23 is so garbage, that a C-hull Benson can still obliterate it

The Z-23 can mount 150s, and with hydro see you in your smoke and not be seen. That is not a recipe for success on the other side. 

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32 minutes ago, Seamus_44 said:

The Z-23 can mount 150s, and with hydro see you in your smoke and not be seen. That is not a recipe for success on the other side. 

The 150mm have extremely crappy DPM.
Z-23 will do 33,000DPM with HE, while a Farragut will do 45,000DPM with HE

Benson has far superior concealment
5.8km of excellence vs.6.2km of pure suckage

Benson even has faster top speed compared to Z-23, so Benson can permaspot the Z-23 too.
38 knots on a light and nimble hull vs. 37 knots on a heavy and sluggish hull.

If, for some reason, you are dumb enough to smoke up around a Z-23, that you would have OUTSPOTTED by 400m, then that is on your head.

On 12/12/2017 at 3:30 PM, JochenHeiden said:

I get close to 6k salvoes on meaty parts of Gearing with Z-52 and Z-46 firing AP. 

Yeah, the AP on those two are very effective against the fat DDs in higher tiers.

Sadly, it's only that doesn't apply to Z-23's 150mm AP. Yes, it will citadel cruisers, but this also means it has way too much penetration against DDs.

Edited by MrDeaf

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On 12/15/2017 at 9:25 AM, MrDeaf said:

The 150mm have extremely crappy DPM.
Z-23 will do 33,000DPM with HE, while a Farragut will do 45,000DPM with HE

 

If you are sitting in smoke and can't see the Z-23, who can see you thanks to hydro, the dpm does not matter when he hits true and you can't As with WoWs in general, it's all a matter of trade=offs. Just looking at the numbers and not considering tactics does not tell the whole story. 

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On 12/21/2017 at 8:10 AM, Seamus_44 said:

If you are sitting in smoke and can't see the Z-23, who can see you thanks to hydro, the dpm does not matter when he hits true and you can't As with WoWs in general, it's all a matter of trade=offs. Just looking at the numbers and not considering tactics does not tell the whole story. 

Well, don't be an idiot and smoke up near a T6+ German DD?

I mean, Z-23 has this god awful 6.3km max concealment vs. Fletcher/Benson, which have 5.8km, so there's no need to smoke up against it.

Now, Z-46, 5.9km concealment, and Z-52, 6.1km concealment with 5.88km hydro, both with effective 128mm AP, are far more dangerous to deal with.

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What i've noticed is that the German DD will detect my Fletcher before I see them. I now have a choice, I can move towards what I think has detected me, or try to run. Let's say I move forward to reveal who has detected me. By now the German DD and I start to trade fire, he's broadside and I'm closing distance (haven't had time to turn yet). German DD now pops smoke and slows. After a few more seconds, I realize the smoke isn't spreading (meaning he likely turned away and is waiting to see what I do). Here's the trap.

 

I'm now in hydro range, and he pops hydro and starts firing at me. I can't see him, but he can see me. I have 2 choices. Try to run and take unanswered damage until I can turn and get out of hydro range (if I do he'll turn and chase extending the amount of time he can invisifire on me - which only gets broken if he leaves smoke or I get out of his hydro range)... or charge forward to get within his smoke firing detectability range (in which case he runs directly away while still laying smoke - the range between us stays mostly constant, and the whole way I'm lit by hydro but can't see him). If the German DD is half-way intelligent, it's a no win situation for the Fletcher.

 

Run - take damage without being able to shoot back = Fletcher loses. Even if the Fletcher lives, it is now damaged while the German DD is not.

 

Charge - take damage without being able to shoot back = Fletcher loses. German DD will be using AP firing at the head-on Fletcher raking in large damage.

 

There is no winning play for the Fletcher. Even if the Fletcher fires torps into smoke and runs, by the time the torps hit (if they hit) or by the time the Fletcher gets out of hydro range the Fletcher is likely badly hurt. If ya get lucky, your torps sink the German DD then you spend the rest of the game with a sliver of health... but more likely than not, the German DD escapes barely scratched while the Fletcher gets pummeled.

 

Add to the situation that the Fletcher's guns seem to do FAR less damage to German DDs than they should = no win situation for the Fletcher.

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The German DDs do not outdetect a Fletcher unless you are not running full concealment which is your own fault.

Detection Ranges for the Germans are: 

Z-52: 6.1 km
Z-46: 5.9 km
Z-23: 6.2 km

Fletcher: 5.8 km

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If you are in T8+ without CE on your DD, and you are not a main line soviet DD, then you need to fix that ASAP.

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On 11/27/2017 at 1:36 AM, BlailBlerg said:

Never ever had trouble with them: First you should not be contesting or within 5km of them when they're known to have hydro ready. Second don't sit in your smoke when they can hydro you. You might want to wait before capping so you can spot them, you outspot them. 

 

If they don't have hydro, then within 7km your guns SHRED them. No contest. Fletcher wins. Use HE. 

Their guns don't turn fast enough, nor do they fire fast enough. 

 

Avoid their torps. Avoid trying to torp them if they have hydro. 

 

All this is predicated on you knowing when they have hydro... Try a Lo Yang or a KM DD with hydro and you'll start to figure out when they have it. 

 

Reminder that their smoke is trashy. Their guns are better at mid range. You outspot them, but they have hydro. Avoid the hydro. Tada. 

There are two types of Z players, the ones who play it like a DD, and the ones who play it like a German DD. I think I only ever lost one fair 1 v 1 knife fight in my 46, and won quite a few 1 v 2 (had a game once with a kagero on one flank, shim on the other. Torp'd the shim and gunned down the kag). I cannot ever recall losing to a Fletcher in either my 46 or 52. I chew them up and spit them out. If they go broadside the AP will demolish them. If they angle in they are either approaching me to which I torp them, or running which I usually just let them run since pursuit especially in early game can lead to ambushes. 

 

A well played Z is easily the most effective knife fighter in the game, bar none. Not sure why you would suggest their guns become more effective at midrange. In my experience the closer the enemy the bigger my hits. Broadsides for 3k damage a pop are not unreasonable at all. This easily out strips the HE damage Fletch can lob out. 

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