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dmckay

Never show broadside to a BB when in a cruiser?

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Not showing broadside to a BB you are fighting with a cruiser is an axiom in this game. IMO in certain ships and in certain tiers I feel this is somewhat invalid. I don't play above tier 6 so I can't comment on how to fight in the high tiers but in my tier 3 St Louis I will not hesitate to engage a BB who is alone and I WILL turn broadside while engaging. First, that is where all her firepower is.  Tons of it...her broadside. Second, tier 3 BBs are so slow and ROF is so slow and when they do fire on me I use that time while they reload to lay a massive amount of damage on them by turning my broadside to them, firing, then turning back bow on before they are reloaded.   Gotta time it right of course but I kill a lot of BBs in my St Louis in this game. There!  I have blown an axiom of the game outta the water. Heh. Comments?  Attack me or agree or semi-agree.  Are there cruisers you have that you turn broadside in when fighting a BB using this simple tactic? :Smile_izmena:

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10 minutes ago, dmckay said:

Not showing broadside to a BB you are fighting with a cruiser is an axiom in this game. IMO in certain ships and in certain tiers I feel this is somewhat invalid. I don't play above tier 6 so I can't comment on how to fight in the high tiers but in my tier 3 St Louis I will not hesitate to engage a BB who is alone and I WILL turn broadside while engaging. First, that is where all her firepower is.  Tons of it...her broadside. Second, tier 3 BBs are so slow and ROF is so slow and when they do fire on me I use that time while they reload to lay a massive amount of damage on them by turning my broadside to them, firing, then turning back bow on before they are reloaded.   Gotta time it right of course but I kill a lot of BBs in my St Louis in this game. There!  I have blown an axiom of the game outta the water. Heh. Comments?  Attack me or agree or semi-agree.  Are there cruisers you have that you turn broadside in when fighting a BB using this simple tactic? :Smile_izmena:

 

You actually do have a interesting point - the St. Louis is  a somewhat unique beast in this respect.  There was a YouTube video posted a couple of years ago when WOWS was young that covered the T3 St. Louis’ armor profile that makes it different from other cruisers (due to the subject matter, it sounds like iChase may have posted it but I’m not sure after all this time).  The St. Louis’ citadel is unusually displaced so that if you shoot at it at the normal spots, it just tanks damage and you don’t get what usually happens when your shoot at a cruiser.  The original Cleveland had something similar since its boilers are not directly under its stacks and the original armor had a gap in its citadel area making it tankier if you shot between the stacks at the waterline (this has since been changed to a continuous citadel for the Cleve, nerfing it’s armor profile).

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Might be confirmation bias, but I feel like I take less damage in Hindenburg at close (and I mean close) range when showing full broadside rather than angling heavily.

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4 minutes ago, hangglide42 said:

 

You actually do have a interesting point - the St. Louis is  a somewhat unique beast in this respect.  There was a YouTube video posted a couple of years ago when WOWS was young that covered the T3 St. Louis’ armor profile that makes it different from other cruisers (due to the subject matter, it sounds like iChase may have posted it but I’m not sure after all this time).  The St. Louis’ citadel is unusually displaced so that if you shoot at it at the normal spots, it just tanks damage and you don’t get what usually happens when your shoot at a cruiser.  The original Cleveland had something similar since its boilers are not directly under its stacks and the original armor had a gap in its citadel area making it tankier if you shot between the stacks at the waterline (this has since been changed to a continuous citadel for the Cleve, nerfing it’s armor profile).

Tks for input.  The St Louis is not a BB but in her tier she can be a monster when used right. I take on BBs all the time in her. Hell in that tier she is kinda like a BB wanna be.

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1 minute ago, dmckay said:

Tks for input.  The St Louis is not a BB but in her tier she can be a monster when used right. I take on BBs all the time in her. Hell in that tier she is kinda like a BB wanna be.

 

I understand your enjoyment of her!  I’m in the process of rebuying ships that I went thru as I went up the tech trees & St. Louis is on my list!  

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4 minutes ago, hangglide42 said:

 

I understand your enjoyment of her!  I’m in the process of rebuying ships that I went thru as I went up the tech trees & St. Louis is on my list!  

She is a hoot to play. Slap that extra speed flag on her and she is even hootier. I suck a lot but got a 55% win rate in her which is great for me. I relish sinking BBs with her.  Got it down to a science since I have had her so long.  To be fair BB play in the lower tiers mostly sucks. Lotta new clueless players in their first ship....a brand new spiffy BB with not the slightest clue as to how to play it...I can tear those guys to pieces.  Brag much?  Ya, but only bout my skill in St Louis.

Edited by dmckay

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It's kind of hard to not be broadside to something anyway so why not the ship you are trying to delete.

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56 minutes ago, dmckay said:

Not showing broadside to a BB you are fighting with a cruiser is an axiom in this game. IMO in certain ships and in certain tiers I feel this is somewhat invalid. I don't play above tier 6 so I can't comment on how to fight in the high tiers but in my tier 3 St Louis I will not hesitate to engage a BB who is alone and I WILL turn broadside while engaging. First, that is where all her firepower is.  Tons of it...her broadside. Second, tier 3 BBs are so slow and ROF is so slow and when they do fire on me I use that time while they reload to lay a massive amount of damage on them by turning my broadside to them, firing, then turning back bow on before they are reloaded.   Gotta time it right of course but I kill a lot of BBs in my St Louis in this game. There!  I have blown an axiom of the game outta the water. Heh. Comments?  Attack me or agree or semi-agree.  Are there cruisers you have that you turn broadside in when fighting a BB using this simple tactic? :Smile_izmena:

 

You said it: You don't play above tier 6. 

 

In your case your combining a cruiser with all around firepower, plus battleships with very poor accuracy. 

 

As for other cruisers, Phoenix is very similar. Fast enough to turn while playing ships with poor accuracy. 

 

However, axioms don't need to be 100% true in order to be useful. Consider it the exception that proves the rule. 

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14 minutes ago, DingBat said:

 

You said it: You don't play above tier 6. 

 

In your case your combining a cruiser with all around firepower, plus battleships with very poor accuracy. 

 

As for other cruisers, Phoenix is very similar. Fast enough to turn while playing ships with poor accuracy. 

 

However, axioms don't need to be 100% true in order to be useful. Consider it the exception that proves the rule. 

Yes what you say is valid.  I did not actually blow the axiom outta the water but in certain situations in certain ships one can be creative. I have Phoenix.  Great ship but tricky to do well in for most and I have not done so hot with her but have had some great matches with her.  Just keep turning. I would NEVER show my broadside to a BB in her unless I was on drugs. OH!  I am on drugs.  BP med, Viagra (never get a chance to use it these days however...no opportunities at my age), arthritis med, med for blood circulation, dementia med, etc. :Smile_sad:

Edited by dmckay

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Emile Bertin.  What's her armor 13mm at the bottom of the citadel and that's the thickest?  If you give broadside at close range, AP BB shells seem to have a tendency of overpenning the citadel. If you angle and give them a long target though, then that's when the AP has enough time to arm inside the ship. 

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You will always be better off angled rather than broadside, with few exceptions.  Those exceptions are ships with armor so weak that they will be over-penned.  Even Turtle-back ships which are more resistant to Citadel damage will take more damage.  There are some things which are deceptive such as damage caps, these mean that if you are extremely close to an enemy and they fire a full broadside but don't hit your citadel their shots likely all hit the same area.  Each area of the ship only takes a certain amount of damage, this is really important to know against DD's and why you should sequential fire at close range.

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There's little bit of give where St Louis doesn't have to go full broadside; but it's just oh so tempting to do so. Watching the original flamethrower ship rain down the brimstone with each full salvo is just the best.

 

Do pretty good with her when I let myself go back and play her in Randoms, (55% WR,) but just as much fun in Co-op, running around trolling the bots, racking up a hundred or more hits; one of the ships I still have a 100% Co-op WR with after 2 years playing.

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Atlanta is better off broadside against BBs

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I play the St Louis using ripple fire as I constantly turn the ship back and forth. Seems to make me a harder target (especially for torps) since the ships it sees don't have the lasers found at higher tiers. It eventually brings the broadside to bear in a near constant stream of firing. It may hurt my accuracy a bit though.

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Players aim, dispersion, ship armor and RNG are all factors that will effect your survival in a broadside cruiser salvo from a BB. At most tiers one can be almost or totally destroyed by one salvo when showing their broadside in a cruiser with. It's not a wise thing to do at any tier and the St. Louis due to it's armor and good HP numbers is probably one of the few exceptions. 

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11 hours ago, hangglide42 said:

 

You actually do have a interesting point - the St. Louis is  a somewhat unique beast in this respect.  There was a YouTube video posted a couple of years ago when WOWS was young that covered the T3 St. Louis’ armor profile that makes it different from other cruisers (due to the subject matter, it sounds like iChase may have posted it but I’m not sure after all this time).  The St. Louis’ citadel is unusually displaced so that if you shoot at it at the normal spots, it just tanks damage and you don’t get what usually happens when your shoot at a cruiser.  The original Cleveland had something similar since its boilers are not directly under its stacks and the original armor had a gap in its citadel area making it tankier if you shot between the stacks at the waterline (this has since been changed to a continuous citadel for the Cleve, nerfing it’s armor profile).

St.Louis - If I am not mistaken may have turtleback armor... and the armor is quite thick anyways combined with shell performance of that tier- check in armor viewer - and Cleveland has a low citadel at a tier where not all BBs can really land consistent shots yet

Also at high tiers, guns with high penetration and decent velocity at close range can overpen full broadside cruisers - ex. the Moskva will overpen Dmitri Donskois and Ibuki's at close range

- Also all of these things can be seen in the armor viewer (it's included in the game for a reason...) - or if you are in a thinly armored ship that is relatively thin (small width) against high pen high velocity guns

Edited by 901234

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16 hours ago, dust340man said:

Players aim, dispersion, ship armor and RNG are all factors that will effect your survival in a broadside cruiser salvo from a BB. At most tiers one can be almost or totally destroyed by one salvo when showing their broadside in a cruiser with. It's not a wise thing to do at any tier and the St. Louis due to it's armor and good HP numbers is probably one of the few exceptions. 

Well as I stated in original post I do not stay broadside when fighting a BB.  I only go broadside just after BB fires and take advantage of long reload BB has to go broadside and lay 2-3 salvos on her then I am turning back to bow on then BB fires and if I am missed, which happens a lot in tier 3, I turn again. Back and forth and back and forth. Actually I guess I only go bout 3/4 broadside fire and turn back....rinse and repeat. 3/4 broadside brings all those guns into play and they can be pretty devastating and they fire so fast it's not hard to get 3 or more salvos off before I turn back to bow on. See what I am saying? 

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On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 10:20 AM, vonKaiser said:

Emile Bertin.  What's her armor 13mm at the bottom of the citadel and that's the thickest?  If you give broadside at close range, AP BB shells seem to have a tendency of overpenning the citadel. If you angle and give them a long target though, then that's when the AP has enough time to arm inside the ship. 

I am not sure that this is the case.  I recall reading somewhere that if a shell penetrates the citadel, the result is always a citadel hit; it will never result in an overpen.  The armor on the Emile is just so poor that a hit on another ship that would result in a normal pen would be more likely to result in an overpen.

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On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 0:02 PM, dmckay said:

then I am turning back to bow on then BB fires and if I am missed, which happens a lot in tier 3, I turn again

This is not really a violation of the rule.  Turning enough to get all your guns into play then turning back to present a narrow profile and timing this in such a way as to be "broadside" only between enemy reloads is not the same as "giving someone your broadside."  That is, in fact, perfectly within the spirit of the rule.

That rule is meant to counter the beginner notion that it is best to sail perpendicular to my target so that I can keep all my guns to bear.  Even in a St. Louis, that is a bad idea because you are presenting a broader target and flatter armor, resulting in more pens even if your citadels are harder to hit in general.  To do what you are describing, you only have to turn enough to get your guns to bear, and if that turn is done when he cannot fire at you either because his guns are turned elsewhere or because you are timing his reloads, you are not technically "giving" him your broadside while you are turned because he cannot "take" it if he cannot fire at you.  Besides, turning back when he can fire is exactly what the rule is meant to convey.

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8 hours ago, Sotaudi said:

This is not really a violation of the rule.  Turning enough to get all your guns into play then turning back to present a narrow profile and timing this in such a way as to be "broadside" only between enemy reloads is not the same as "giving someone your broadside."  That is, in fact, perfectly within the spirit of the rule.

That rule is meant to counter the beginner notion that it is best to sail perpendicular to my target so that I can keep all my guns to bear.  Even in a St. Louis, that is a bad idea because you are presenting a broader target and flatter armor, resulting in more pens even if your citadels are harder to hit in general.  To do what you are describing, you only have to turn enough to get your guns to bear, and if that turn is done when he cannot fire at you either because his guns are turned elsewhere or because you are timing his reloads, you are not technically "giving" him your broadside while you are turned because he cannot "take" it if he cannot fire at you.  Besides, turning back when he can fire is exactly what the rule is meant to convey.

Exactly.  This is what I try and do.  It's not for every ship but St Louis in her tier can pull this off. Kind a mini-BB...odd but great ship.  Damn monster when all guns are on target.  Tks

 

Timing is critical with this tactic.  Also, as I said earlier, BB play in tier 3 SUCKS. It just does for the most part and that helps. Newer players generally. I am no good but I am hell on wheels in tier 3.  I feel guilty at times. 

Edited by dmckay

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On 11/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, Sotaudi said:

I am not sure that this is the case.  I recall reading somewhere that if a shell penetrates the citadel, the result is always a citadel hit; it will never result in an overpen.  The armor on the Emile is just so poor that a hit on another ship that would result in a normal pen would be more likely to result in an overpen.

I'd suggest watching this video.  I copied it at the relevant time.

 

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On 11/26/2017 at 9:38 AM, SireneRacker said:

Might be confirmation bias, but I feel like I take less damage in Hindenburg at close (and I mean close) range when showing full broadside rather than angling heavily.

I'm not a hindie driver but I've seen a lot of commentary on the turtleback armour helping at those close ranges and "baiting" AP- from a distance it doesn't work so well as you would expect with this armour configuration. 

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Saint Louis really does not play like a cruiser. She has very heavy belt armor, and a very low citadel with a turtleback. She also faces a lot of badly-played BBs with horrid accuracy, range, and armor schemes. She's just not prone to instant deletion the way other Cruisers are. 

 

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