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Are IJN DDs an exercise in frustration?

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155 members have voted

  1. 1. Are IJN DDs best described as an exercise in frustration?

    • Yes
    • No
    • How dare you pick an option that isn't black and white

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It really depends and I haven't played the line but I guess I'll go with no for now.

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I think they're very wide ranging in their results, which leads to frustration. In matches where you keep getting pushed back, or ypur torpedoes simply aren't hitting frustration can set it, leading to mistakes and more frustration.

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8 minutes ago, Grizley said:

Only if you're terrible.

Hello, sir. Could you elaborate on your response?

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Ever since the great line split/nerfpocalypse, they have become much more difficult to enjoy.

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I would say that there are aspects of the game that make IJN DDs frustrating to play. Primarily CVs, planes can make any kind of torpedo play a waste of time. However they can be very rewarding when things pan out. 

 

So I wouldn’t call them an exercise in frustration, people make the ships sound much worse than they really are. The ships require more planning and can’t just win fights that they run into like other ships. So players that don’t plan ahead well or react well will be punished, but when you do even running without smoke does not hurt survival much. 

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8 minutes ago, Elegant_Winter said:

Hello, sir. Could you elaborate on your response?

 

If you expect to carry games doing hundreds of thousands of damage, if you think it's not your job to cap, if you think radar is just sooooooo OP, if you think that firing torps at a bow on ship is a good idea, if you fire your torps down the guide line... Then everything will frustrate you because you're bad at the game.  

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9 minutes ago, Grizley said:

Only if you're terrible.

That would apply to DDs that have a playstyle that is not intrinsically linked to inconsistency. The primary form of offense for IJN DDs with the exception of Akizuki, is torpedoes (and it has aspects of the ship that is also very frustrating, namely the agility and speed) and torpedoes are simply unreliable. Your primary form of doing damage to all types of ships have multiple forms of defense available, and rely more on luck and enemy incompetence to succeed with. 

 

IJN torpedoes have the highest reaction time, and have long reloads in general. When faced with missions that force me to hit or do damage with torpedoes, I'll play my Z-52 or Gearing over a Shimakaze, the ship balanced entirely around being the premier torpedo ship. 

 

In this case, I voted yes because inconsistency is incredibly frustrating. I just don't have fun with them any more. I have worse games on average in them compared to other DDs of all tiers, punctuated by periods of fun. 

 

As a DD main, I have more reasons than not to ready up any DD that is not Japanese. 

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Given a choice between "easy" or hard, the majority of players will choose easy.  IJN is not easy from tier 5 up. Love my Japanese DDs.

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10 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

I would say that there are aspects of the game that make IJN DDs frustrating to play. Primarily CVs, planes can make any kind of torpedo play a waste of time. However they can be very rewarding when things pan out. 

 

So I wouldn’t call them an exercise in frustration, people make the ships sound much worse than they really are. The ships require more planning and can’t just win fights that they run into like other ships. So players that don’t plan ahead well or react well will be punished, but when you do even running without smoke does not hurt survival much. 

Accurate, but once USN torpedoes come into their own at tier 8, IJN ships show their weaknesses when paired against torpedoes that have greatly reduced reaction time at usable ranges.

 

Japanese destroyers are all high risk, and are unreliable by design. Reliability is something that is prized above all else when it comes to contribution to victory, in my opinion. 

 

Kagero, harekaze, and Yuugumo are the high points of the line, because they have aspects of them that allow them unique roles that other lines can't fill, but they still influence a match far less than the gold standard Benson and Fletcher on average.

Edited by SeraphicRadiance
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13 minutes ago, Grizley said:

If you expect to carry games doing hundreds of thousands of damage, if you think it's not your job to cap, if you think radar is just sooooooo OP, if you think that firing torps at a bow on ship is a good idea, if you fire your torps down the guide line... Then everything will frustrate you because you're bad at the game.  

I think it's best to view everything from the perspective of an average player, not a skilled player, when you're trying to create balance. Why? Average players are the overwhelming majority, and skilled players are a minority. I mean, that's who WG has in mind when they're designing the game (most of the time).

 

So, to reframe the question: Are IJN DDs an exercise in frustration for average players who are the overwhelming majority?

 

It's easy to just say, "If you're skilled you won't have any problems." How much does that mean though? It doesn't mean that much. Not many are as devoted to understanding the game as you are, and consequently they may never reach that level of skill. They devote their energy and attention elsewhere in life, and they play more purely for enjoyment. That's not wrong.

Edited by Elegant_Winter
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No, USN CVs are best described as an exercise in frustration especially Lexington.

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10 minutes ago, SgtSpud said:

Given a choice between "easy" or hard, the majority of players will choose easy.  IJN is not easy from tier 5 up. Love my Japanese DDs.

The reward for optimal situations with IJN DDs is high, no question. The problem is, it's extremely hard to take advantage of these situations, and even then, it can be spoiled by attentiveness, or factors as simple as a fighter plane flying too close; you can fail in any situation that is anything short of perfect for you. 

 

The line between overwhelming dominance and crushing disappointment is razor thin for IJN destroyers. 

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Just now, Elegant_Winter said:

I think it's best to view everything from the perspective of an average player, not a skilled player, when you're trying to create balance. Why? Average players are the overwhelming majority, and skilled players are a minority. I mean, that's who WG has in mind when they're designing the game (most of the time).

 

So, to reframe the question: Are IJN DDs an exercise in frustration for average players who are the overwhelming majority?

 

It's easy to just say, "If you're skilled you won't have any problems." How much does that mean though? It doesn't mean that much. Not many are as devoted to understanding the game as you are, and consequently they may never reach that level of skill. They devote their energy and attention else in life, and they play more purely for enjoyment. That's not wrong.

 

No.  Balancing for average or below average players is a good way to ton ruin a game. Ships should be balanced against the top 10% or so of the captains of that ship.

 

Yes that means some high skill cap lines will not work well for the "average" player. That's fine.  

 

One of the things I'll mention, is many IJN DD captains trying to play their DD like a crappy version of a USN DD. That won't work.  Positioning between your BBs and the enemy is a bad spot for an IJN DD. You want to be off to a flank so that ships angled against the BBs are at a 90 degree angle to you. Now launch your torps.  If they turn to dodge your torps they get wrecked by the BBs, if they maintain angle against the BBs your torps wreck them.  

 

I'll take an IJN DD that forces enemies broadside any time.    Even if they never did land a torp, they still contributed.  If it's forcing a BB broadside you often want them to dodge the torps and take the cits. It's more damage.

 

People can't just do whatever they want in a ship and expect it to come out how they want.  You can brawl in your Chappy if you want, but I'm not going to have much sympathy when you cry about getting wrecked.  

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Yes! I played all of them with the exception of shimakaze.

This is some of my most recent experiences with them:

I played with Shiratsuyu recently to see how she is performing lately after the several changes after her release. I spotted a Bayern alone, sailing in a straight line, broadside and oblivious to everything. I lauched a total of 3 salvos at the limit of my concealment with a difference of 90 secs between them, a total of 24 torps. All salvos were succesfull less the last one when he finally turned on his attention. BUT... the combination of those slow torps, with poor concealment gave the enemy BB enough time to dodge most of my torps. First salvo = 2 hits. Second salvo = 1 hit. Third salvo = Bayern managed to fit BETWEEN all of them. The match ended before i could sink the oblivious target, that was recovering a bit of the damage he was taking from the torps as well. I would be way more succesfull if i were playing with a german or american DD, their alfa damage is lower, but is nearly impossible to dodge them if the target is slow and is being as oblivious as that Bayern. Similar gameplays with Shira ended with similar results

Kagero was OKish. But that was because she has better concealment than everyone else at high tiers. And that characteristic fitted so well with my DD gamestyle, since i know how to provide intel with DDs and i can influence what my team does with that.

Yugumo has several issues, but those 23k damaging torps are so brutal that even when a single one hits the destiny they cause unbeliavable damage. But usually i would still prefer Fletcher or Z-23, since they are more balanced ships and they can hit more torps per battle without issues.

Akatsuki... i might play in the next days just to see how she's right now. Last time was 2 months ago (my experience will come here with an edit) Here it is: i had the similar issue with Shiratsuyu. But the amount of torpedoes she can lauch during a game is way higher than shira, that is more than enough to compensate the bad characteristics of her torps. But still not how i personally wanted her to perform, she is still the closest we have to the old tier 8 fubuki. My main issue with her is that she's a torp boat at heart and there are gunboats at the same tier that have better concealment than her, even if u manage to win a gun battle against one of them, the HP of the ship will problablt be dangerously low and the element of surprise will be gone.

Shinonome is the only IJN DD that does everything i want from her in the battlefield. My last game with her was a unbeliavable carry with 8 kills (NA record for the ship), 180k damage (around top 20 with the ship in the server) and 4 devastating strikes!!! And the team was behind in ships and points the entire game. And no. My experience with the other IJN DDs weren't affected by that game with Shino, since they didn't change after the monstruous game. Someone can argue about her 8km torps, i don't see an issue with them due to the lack of radar at tier 6

I don't wanna comment about the low tier IJN DDs... after the line split they were nerfed to oblivion so they can't be a huge threat to new players, the consequence of that is that they are a way lower threat to experienced players. Kamikaze and Fujin show how they were in the past. Even today i don't consider them a huge problem myself, since they only punish targets that arent paying attention. Personally, i find Gremyaschy way more problematic at tier 5.

 

About the Shinonome game... i will send them, so someone can upload them on YT.

 

Quick edit: did you guys noticed i prefer a german DD or an american one to do the "torpedoboat job"? Even when the japanese DDs are advertised being the most powerfull ones in this area.

Edit 2: I didn't even mention that the pan-asia DDs will probably make IJN DDs almost obsolete when it comes to torping capital ships.

Edited by Cpt_JM_Nascimento
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8 minutes ago, SeraphicRadiance said:

The reward for optimal situations with IJN DDs is high, no question. The problem is, it's extremely hard to take advantage of these situations, and even then, it can be spoiled by attentiveness, or factors as simple as a fighter plane flying too close; you can fail in any situation that is anything short of perfect for you. 

 

The line between overwhelming dominance and crushing disappointment is razor thin for IJN destroyers. 

 

CVs are brutal for IJN DDs. No doubt. Spotting torps and in general they lack the AA to punish a CV for permanent spotting them.  Get help from your CV and hope he has fighters.

 

That said, you don't need to get 300k damage to carry a team.  Use your torps to set up no win situations.  Deny areas and slow pushes.

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IJN DDs overall are better described as "feast or famine".

 

More the latter than the prior.

Edited by Wulfgarn
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I would say a nice quality of life change would be preventing torpedoes from being spotted by aircraft. If they could only be seen by ships or Hydro it would present an interesting tactical choice, and also buff ships that rely on torpedo damage indirectly. Having planes spot DDs is already enough info for skilled Captains to avoid a spread without them being spotted 6km+ away.

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3 minutes ago, Cpt_JM_Nascimento said:

I lauched a total of 3 salvos at the limit of my concealment with a difference of 90 secs between them, a total of 24 torps. BUT... the combination of those slow torps, with poor concealment gave the enemy BB enough time to dodge most of my torps. First salvo = 2 hits. Second salvo = 1 hit. Third salvo = Bayern managed to fit BETWEEN all of them. 

Now I don't own shiratsuyu and obviously you have much,much more experience in the game than me but I have a suggestion.

 

Try launching all salvos with a small time difference but in different arcs. I think there is a higher chance to hit but I can be wrong of course.

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11 minutes ago, Grizley said:

 

No.  Balancing for average or below average players is a good way to ton ruin a game. Ships should be balanced against the top 10% or so of the captains of that ship.

 

Yes that means some high skill cap lines will not work well for the "average" player. That's fine.  

 

One of the things I'll mention, is many IJN DD captains trying to play their DD like a crappy version of a USN DD. That won't work.  Positioning between your BBs and the enemy is a bad spot for an IJN DD. You want to be off to a flank so that ships angled against the BBs are at a 90 degree angle to you. Now launch your torps.  If they turn to dodge your torps they get wrecked by the BBs, if they maintain angle against the BBs your torps wreck them.  

 

I'll take an IJN DD that forces enemies broadside any time.    Even if they never did land a torp, they still contributed.  If it's forcing a BB broadside you often want them to dodge the torps and take the cits. It's more damage.

 

People can't just do whatever they want in a ship and expect it to come out how they want.  You can brawl in your Chappy if you want, but I'm not going to have much sympathy when you cry about getting wrecked.  

You know, I used to play that way, back when I first grinded through the IJN destroyers tree on the game's release. My old tier 9 Kagero has exceptionally high average damage and kills per game. But you know what? Incredibly low win rate. Awful. The lowest win rate out of any of my tier 8+ ships ever, in fact.

 

Map control wins games. Caps wins games. Even in the heyday of IJN destroyers, they still had low impact on victory. And in a game with a carrier, you're just asking to be shut down. 

 

IJN destroyers just have too many conditions that need to be met, and require perfect position at the right time, and while you're doing that, the enemy KMS/USN DD is fighting for caps on the front lines and establishing zones of control on the map. That is frustration. 

Edited by SeraphicRadiance
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Just now, Silver_kun said:

Now I don't own shiratsuyu and obviously you have much,much more experience in the game than me but I have a suggestion.

 

Try launching all salvos with a small time difference but in different arcs. I think there is a higher chance to hit but I can be wrong of course.

I use this strategy a lot. But during the week that i played with Shira, i was playing with Kagero and Yugumo a lot too. When the torp walls were being a total success against targets going in straight lines. But it didn't work for Shiratsuyu's slow torps, that affected my gamestyle.

Bonus: i don't plan to sacrifice the smoke generator, for TBR. Since i find losing a capping and a team tool for it a bit too much

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Just now, Cpt_JM_Nascimento said:

I use this strategy a lot. But during the week that i played with Shira, i was playing with Kagero and Yugumo a lot too. When the torp walls were being a total success against targets going in straight lines. But it didn't work for Shiratsuyu's slow torps, that affected my gamestyle.

Bonus: i don't plan to sacrifice the smoke generator, for TBR. Since i find losing a capping and a team tool for it a bit too much

Oh I see.

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53 minutes ago, Elegant_Winter said:

Hello, sir. Could you elaborate on your response?

Lol, nice pic with milk tea 

29 minutes ago, SoftAndCute said:

No, USN CVs are best described as an exercise in frustration especially Lexington.

oh lol. Ive heard this

29 minutes ago, SeraphicRadiance said:

The reward for optimal situations with IJN DDs is high, no question. The problem is, it's extremely hard to take advantage of these situations, and even then, it can be spoiled by attentiveness, or factors as simple as a fighter plane flying too close; you can fail in any situation that is anything short of perfect for you. 

 

The line between overwhelming dominance and crushing disappointment is razor thin for IJN destroyers. 

This is pretty much the problem: too much binary-ness. Spotted torps? no hits. Travelling away? You'll be able to kite between them. etc etc.

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