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Jakajan

More module options for tier 8.

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Lately I dislike playing tier 7 destroyers. I think it is somewhat because the tier 8 concealment expert module is so dominate on tier 8 + destroyers as it gives such a massive advantage. Frankly I would like to see the tier 8 module slot just completely disappear but I do not think that would happen.

The concealment module makes such a massive difference, I would say tier 7 destroyers are not nearly as much fun as tier 7 cruisers, or battleships, but enough griping. :P

The other module slots at other tiers have tempting alternative options to their best one, even the 500k cost module allows for secondary modification, anti air modification, and aiming system modification for different flavors that work for the skill. For the 2 million cost? It is just the concealment option.

What other options for that module would be worth taking instead of concealment expert?

* Maybe air concealment module? Reduce spotting by air by 40%

* Element protection module? 10% reduction to fire and flooding damage, maybe even 5% more torpedo protection

*High explosive charge module? +100 meters per second to shell velocity

These are some ideas that may be competitive to concealment module and might make the tier 8 slot more interesting. These are just my thoughts.

What kinds of modules do you all think could be competitive to the concealment module?

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The Rudder Shift Module is useful if you're not one to silence the guns all match. Though it'd be even better if BBs could use it too.

 

The Target Acquisition Module could use a slight buff of +1km or +2km to guaranteed detection to make it more enticing to take.

 

A Special Module (SC and mission reward-only) that further cuts firestarting and flooding chance by 50% each would work well in that slot too, leaving it only available to T8+ ships.

 

Another Special Module that instead cuts fire/flooding duration by 40% would work too, which could stack with the earlier Module that cuts both by 15% as well as the Captain skill that cuts both by 15%. Between this and the previous module, it's a matter of prevention vs duration, which varies greatly by nationality due to different DCP durations. The IJN and KM would do better with duration reduction, whereas the USN and RN would do better with prevention.

 

A Special Module that boosts Torpedo reload by say, 10% would work in that slot too; forcing stealthy ships to either pick between faster torpedo reload or more concealment, but also give ships that are less-stealthy but carry torps a means of pumping out a bit more. For the sake of not quite ignoring CVs, this also buffs TB reload times by 10%.

 

A Special Module that increases RoF by 15% but decreases sigma by 0.2 and increases dispersion by +5m per 1km range could work; again, giving the trade-off of more shells downrange but at the cost of worse accuracy; especially at longer ranges (an extra 50m radius at 10km is already considerable; moreso at standard ranges of 15~18km).

 

A Special Module that simply adds +1 to all Consumables is also a considerably tempting alternative, and restricted to T8+ ships.

 

A Special Module that increases torpedo range by 10% but also cuts speed by 10%, BUT DOES NOT change detection range, might also work. Also applies to air-dropped torps, not that a CV would ever take it.

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T7 DD are kinda ok but yeah considering you face T8 with concealment module, except Shiratsuyu, other DD are kinda meh.

 

IMO T7 DD should receive a slight buff to concealment. Something that will allow them to move a little bit freely. 

 

Now regarding other T8 module, I don't think i would ever replace concealment for something else... At least for my cruiser and destroyer. It's is a great tool for both cruiser and destroyers when it come to survivability (except if you run Russian DD) especially now when RN BB can have insane concealment . Hell a Conqueror Lion or Monarque could outspot a Henri 4 and these 3 ship can easily citadel Henri to death 

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1 hour ago, Jakajan said:

Lately I dislike playing tier 7 destroyers. I think it is somewhat because the tier 8 concealment expert module is so dominate on tier 8 + destroyers as it gives such a massive advantage. Frankly I would like to see the tier 8 module slot just completely disappear but I do not think that would happen.

then you would just make T8 DDs all the worse off against T9 and T10 DDs. T7 gets much better MM than T8. You're much more likely to go against T5s at T7 than you are going to see T6s at T8.

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Mmmm ... so here's the thing: Every single class of ship in the game has a threshhold tier and DDs are not the only ones suffering.

 

BBs at tier 7 are outclassed by BBs at tier 8 because Tier 8 BBs can overmatch Tier 7 BBs, but not the other way around.

CAs at tier 8 are massively outclassed by CAs at tier 9 because Tier 9 CAs not only have Repair Party, but they also have the gun reload module and generally have significantly better DPS.

 

So yes, you're right ... Tier 7 DDs have a disadvantage in terms of concealment. But their DPS is nearly the same (they typically have the same number of guns and RoF), and their health pool is only 1 or 2k different, meaning in a gunfight, a good T7 DD player can kill a T8 DD played by an average player. It's just that the T8 player will see him first. So generally, if you're a T7 DD thrown into a match with T8 DDs (not counting RU ones of course), only solo cap if you have a good deal of support. Otherwise, be the backup when capping of a T8 DD. Also note that even with the concealment difference, caps themselves are much larger than your concealment range, so do what you would normally do, which is to sit at the very edge of the cap with your nose pointing back towards your own spawn if you need to bail.

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9 hours ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Mmmm ... so here's the thing: Every single class of ship in the game has a threshhold tier and DDs are not the only ones suffering.

 

BBs at tier 7 are outclassed by BBs at tier 8 because Tier 8 BBs can overmatch Tier 7 BBs, but not the other way around.

CAs at tier 8 are massively outclassed by CAs at tier 9 because Tier 9 CAs not only have Repair Party, but they also have the gun reload module and generally have significantly better DPS.

 

So yes, you're right ... Tier 7 DDs have a disadvantage in terms of concealment. But their DPS is nearly the same (they typically have the same number of guns and RoF), and their health pool is only 1 or 2k different, meaning in a gunfight, a good T7 DD player can kill a T8 DD played by an average player. It's just that the T8 player will see him first. So generally, if you're a T7 DD thrown into a match with T8 DDs (not counting RU ones of course), only solo cap if you have a good deal of support. Otherwise, be the backup when capping of a T8 DD. Also note that even with the concealment difference, caps themselves are much larger than your concealment range, so do what you would normally do, which is to sit at the very edge of the cap with your nose pointing back towards your own spawn if you need to bail.

You're glossing over the point.  Even without the concealment module, tier 8 DD's would have a mild concealment advantage over their tier 7 predecessors.  But with the concealment module, that advantage becomes unfairly large IMO.

 

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This goes right back to T4 protected MM causing problems for T5 and 6 as well as some lesser problems for T7 and 8. 

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50 minutes ago, Crucis said:

You're glossing over the point.  Even without the concealment module, tier 8 DD's would have a mild concealment advantage over their tier 7 predecessors.  But with the concealment module, that advantage becomes unfairly large IMO.

 

That is the main point. Tier 8 destroyers both have defaultly better concealment, also giving them the concealment module makes for some way too stealthy boats.

 

Destroyers from tier 4-7 have a gradual reduction of stealth, at tier 8 they are dropped back to tier 5ish levels, then tier 9 and 10 they become less stealthy once more.

 

So again, I think that having different modules that could compete with concealment module, or maybe moving the concealment module to a different tier would be interesting.

 

Just to throw this out, and I'm not saying this is a great idea, but could you imagine if the concealment module was given out at a different tier, or remove altogether? I could also maybe see it more fair if it was reduced to a 5% concealment bonus.

 

Concealment module at tier 5 would be a interesting choice. I'm not saying it is a good idea, but it would take the extreme stealth bump out of the tier 7-8 gap. There would be a gap but not as bad.

 

People would complain about seal clubbing Kamikaze again, but tier 5 is the worst tier for seal clubbing right now so I think it would be manageable.

Edited by Jakajan

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Jakajan, the concealment module should just be removed.  Wherever it might be placed would create a massive jump in concealment between that tier and the tier before.  Without it, there's a nice, smooth progression of concealment that is as it should be.  Or if it isn't that way because the devs assumed its presence, then rebalance base concealment values that makes sense without the concealment module.

Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to think of any possible modules that could compete with the concealment module in the 6th upgrade slot, at least for DDs and perhaps BBs and CVs.

I personally think that the 6th slot concealment module and the 3rd slot range increasing module should both be removed so that concealment and gun ranges have smoother progressions, rather than allowing massive improvements at tier 8 (concealment module) and tier 9 (3rd slot, range increasing module).  And again, if some balance issues around gun range exist, due to the lack of the range increasing module, then just tweak those ships' base gun ranges appropriately.

 

Some people have complained that you should be able to get great upgrade modules at high tiers because that's one of the benefits of progressing upwards in tier.  I don't entirely agree nor disagree.  I have no problem with certain kinds of upgrades.  But I have a major problem with gun range and concealment module upgrades because no amount of skill can counter them.  Look at the other tier 8 and 9 upgrade modules.  None of them have such a profound effect as the range and concealment upgrades. They have useful effects, but not effects that that are nearly as game changing, at least in my opinion.

 

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10 hours ago, Crucis said:

Jakajan, the concealment module should just be removed.  Wherever it might be placed would create a massive jump in concealment between that tier and the tier before.  Without it, there's a nice, smooth progression of concealment that is as it should be.  Or if it isn't that way because the devs assumed its presence, then rebalance base concealment values that makes sense without the concealment module.

Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to think of any possible modules that could compete with the concealment module in the 6th upgrade slot, at least for DDs and perhaps BBs and CVs.

I personally think that the 6th slot concealment module and the 3rd slot range increasing module should both be removed so that concealment and gun ranges have smoother progressions, rather than allowing massive improvements at tier 8 (concealment module) and tier 9 (3rd slot, range increasing module).  And again, if some balance issues around gun range exist, due to the lack of the range increasing module, then just tweak those ships' base gun ranges appropriately.

 

Some people have complained that you should be able to get great upgrade modules at high tiers because that's one of the benefits of progressing upwards in tier.  I don't entirely agree nor disagree.  I have no problem with certain kinds of upgrades.  But I have a major problem with gun range and concealment module upgrades because no amount of skill can counter them.  Look at the other tier 8 and 9 upgrade modules.  None of them have such a profound effect as the range and concealment upgrades. They have useful effects, but not effects that that are nearly as game changing, at least in my opinion.

 

That is fair, to be honest the game would be more balanced without those two options, but that is again just likely our mutual opinion.

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6 hours ago, Jakajan said:

That is fair, to be honest the game would be more balanced without those two options, but that is again just likely our mutual opinion.

I do think that the game without those two upgrades would be more far and balanced.  It definitely stinks when you're in a tier 7 DD, particularly the non-IJN ones, and the concealment of your higher tier competition is not just mildly better than yours, but vastly better.  Ditto for the 3rd slot gun range upgrade.  I'd rather see gun upgrades focus more on things like accuracy, turret rotation, reload speeds.  Things that are useful but don't represent uncounterable things.  A cruiser whose guns are outranged by 3-4 km can't counter that range difference.  They're boned.  A DD whose concealment is "outranged" by 1-2 km (due to the concealment module) can't counter that.

It seems to me that, using the concealment module example, what this ends up doing at least with tier 7 DDs, is push them into fighting at near their max torpedo range and hoping and praying to stay out of detection range of those enemy DDs they have no hope of spotting.  Alternatively, maybe they try to operate around places where they can possible encounter enemy DDs at far less than normal concealment ranges (CRs) where the enemy's CR is effectively neutralized. 

But in the end, these two upgrades are just plain unfair.

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