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awiggin

Coming soon to a game near you....

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YES!!! This is a start. Its about damn time someone grew a brain and took the first step.

Edited by Ulthwey
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This really doesn't affect anything except for the seasonal lootboxes (Christmas, Halloween).

 

I'd say watch how CSGO reacts to this though.  Skins and opening cases are a big part of GabeN's paycheck.

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The whole fiasco with EA is probably going to help the argument against loot boxes, which is great because they are in all tense and purposes gambling.

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22 minutes ago, Seadog_Supreme said:

For intangible items, probably legal in the US.

 

If a large enough group of nations sign on it's largely not going to matter, because too much of the market area "will" ban it to make it cost efficient to develop a seperate system just for those area's.

 

You also have to remember, not everyone playing on the NA server is actually from the NA. Lert for example is Dutch AFAIK, i'm UK, LWM is Canadian i believe, e.t.c.

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18 minutes ago, Carl said:

 

If a large enough group of nations sign on it's largely not going to matter, because too much of the market area "will" ban it to make it cost efficient to develop a seperate system just for those area's.

 

You also have to remember, not everyone playing on the NA server is actually from the NA. Lert for example is Dutch AFAIK, i'm UK, LWM is Canadian i believe, e.t.c.

 

Not mention players like me who play the NA servers but live in Asia. :fish_aqua:

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It wouldn't affect WoWs much. Their main set of income comes from Premium Time, vehicles, and vehicle bundles. At worst, WG would just be forced to sell seasonal Permacamo directly like regular Permacamo at cost or more, be forced to sell all the Signal Flags again like they did early on, and also sell individual Collectibles for Collection completion, probably at 2-5 USD per item, rather than stuffing them all into RNGboxes.

 

As far as it affecting players, it does take away the ability to ever get a realistic chance to indirectly buy a permanently removed Premium outside of SCs and events, and would just further shift the lost income from RNGboxes to selling Signals, Collectibles, and maybe even Consumables, resulting in a halfway to P2W situation like WoT's Gold Ammo, but on the consumable end of things (which is a big deal considering the +1 from Premium Consumables can make a difference in a match).

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Im glad to see loot box type crap on the way out.  WoWs ones like the Xmas ones are an exception as you get more then your moneys worth every time.  I hate the true gambling you get junk for your $ kind like what StarTrek Online does for example.  Or Elderscrolls Online.  Loot box type stuff are a slippery slope, the game that sells it needs to have things in them that are universally important to players like in WoWs we have camo, dabloons, etc.   In STO and ESO there is nothing that is quiet that universal, but that being said let me say ESO monthly subscription rewards are awesome and is a fantastic game, and STO F2P model is the best there is.

 

I rather see everything go into a store and stays there forever.  Im sick of limited offer [edited], im sick of loot box [edited].  And for the love of god would someone please add shopping carts so I can buy multiple things at the same time!!!  Whats so hard about make stuff, put it in store, price it reasonably, make it so people can get multiple things at once, profit, that game companies find so hard???  

 

/end rant

Edited by JToney3449

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3 hours ago, awiggin said:

 

Lootboxes, Lockboxes, all that cr@p has been in gaming for more than a decade.  MMORPGs were the first to suffer through this sh*t, the issue was raised long ago, and nobody gave a sh*t.  Now it happens with a Star Wars FPS game and all the sudden it's a big deal now.

 

But whatever.  If it gets companies to stop this stupid deal, then good to go, but I doubt this will happen.

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Personally, I like the Christmas and Halloween crates.  I have always gotten more than my money's worth and count on them to build stock.  Not sure why those should be stopped.  If you don't like them, you don't have to buy them.

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28 minutes ago, JToney3449 said:

Im glad to see loot box type crap on the way out.  WoWs ones like the Xmas ones are an exception as you get more then your moneys worth every time.  I hate the true gambling you get junk for your $ kind like what StarTrek Online does for example.  Or Elderscrolls Online.  Loot box type stuff are a slippery slope, the game that sells it needs to have things in them that are universally important to players like in WoWs we have camo, dabloons, etc.   In STO and ESO there is nothing that is quiet that universal, but that being said let me say ESO monthly subscription rewards are awesome and is a fantastic game, and STO F2P model is the best there is.

 

I rather see everything go into a store and stays there forever.  Im sick of limited offer [edited], im sick of loot box [edited].  And for the love of god would someone please add shopping carts so I can buy multiple things at the same time!!!  Whats so hard about make stuff, put it in store, price it reasonably, make it so people can get multiple things at once, profit, that game companies find so hard???  

 

/end rant

 

Oh, Star Trek Online's lockboxes are REALLY BAD.  There are guys that spend like $200 USD and not get the lockbox ship they want.  There are cases of guys blowing even $800 USD and not get the ship they want.  Every time when a new lockbox for the quarter comes out, you can always look in the official forums and see someone complaining that they spent [Insert yooge amount of $$$] and not get what they wanted.

 

Taking people out to the cleaners.

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They could still do loot boxes as long as they were not paid for directly with cash. So for instance in wows they could make a SC cost 750 doubloons see a work around ?

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32 minutes ago, Kunra_1 said:

They could still do loot boxes as long as they were not paid for directly with cash. So for instance in wows they could make a SC cost 750 doubloons see a work around ?

 

You can only get doubloons for real money so no that wouldn't be a workaround.

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I think the issue is that with so many games you are at a major disadvantage if you don't pay to win where as with the loot boxes in WOWS you are always going to get something useful and might get lucky and win a ship but you get something useful from each one it is more like a blind bag 

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I wonder how far this can be taken. TCGs have booster packs that are essentially loot boxes. Especially with individual cards that can have their barter price fluctuate due to imbalance, synergy, or the general game meta.

 

I remember getting a "Jace, the Mind Sculptor" in a Magic draft when it came out (Worldwake set). At the time one of these could net over $100 and I eventually traded it for a few full decks (pretty decent ones, too). It's a fairly low chance to get a specific rare card in even a box set which contains 36 booster packs.

 

So, can it be considered gambling if someone actually tries to pull a rare card they want from boosters instead of just buying the card by itself?

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Money earning schemes are so numerous I should think "inventing" another method to achieve a similar outcome should not be difficult. We are talking about creative folks here. 

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4 hours ago, Carl said:

 

If a large enough group of nations sign on it's largely not going to matter, because too much of the market area "will" ban it to make it cost efficient to develop a seperate system just for those area's.

 

You also have to remember, not everyone playing on the NA server is actually from the NA. Lert for example is Dutch AFAIK, i'm UK, LWM is Canadian i believe, e.t.c.

 

I agree that they'll probably keep it consistent, but I don't think it matters where you live, just where the server is.

 

Dunno what they can really do anyway, other than not allow sale of physical copies if loot boxes aren't removed. I mean, how hard is it for an underage Belgian person to participate in online poker for real money, if they have access to a credit card?

 

More likely IMO, is that they'll require a ratings change, so that games with lootboxes are rated 18+.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Seadog_Supreme said:

For intangible items, probably legal in the US.

Tangibility of an item does *not* determine if an action is gambling or not.

And I *expect* that the law will be altered in the US to include loot crates and the like as gambling for a simple reason: gambling winnings are taxed at a different rate than normal capital gains (~25-28% vs. a progressive tax on capital gains but rarely, in most circumstances, over ~20%), and as such, the *huge* profits posting by EA and other Publishers are something that the Government will want a piece of. And unlike other industries, Games does not have the same degree of respect or influence in power to prevent it.

I would be surprised if not in the next few months/year to see a change to the tax code on gambling to include loot-boxes and as such, Developers be subject to the same 25% capital gains tax that say, the operator of a lottery machine is expect to pay on income.

Edited by _RC1138
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1 hour ago, Final_Spark said:

I wonder how far this can be taken. TCGs have booster packs that are essentially loot boxes. Especially with individual cards that can have their barter price fluctuate due to imbalance, synergy, or the general game meta.

 

I remember getting a "Jace, the Mind Sculptor" in a Magic draft when it came out (Worldwake set). At the time one of these could net over $100 and I eventually traded it for a few full decks (pretty decent ones, too). It's a fairly low chance to get a specific rare card in even a box set which contains 36 booster packs.

 

So, can it be considered gambling if someone actually tries to pull a rare card they want from boosters instead of just buying the card by itself?

 

I'd say no, simply because the rare card has no greater intrinsic value than the common one. Now if the company sold individual cards, (and you knew what card you were buying) and the rares cost more than the commons, then yes, the booster packs would be gambling.

 

It would be with the Halloween and Christmas boxes here, because all the possible prizes have a doubloon, and therefore cash, value, set by the company.

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21 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

I'd say no, simply because the rare card has no greater intrinsic value than the common one. Now if the company sold individual cards, (and you knew what card you were buying) and the rares cost more than the commons, then yes, the booster packs would be gambling.

Intrinsic value does *not* influence is something is gambling or not. Purely based on capital gains. Even $0.01 is still gambling (hence the (now misnomered) penny slots). By the way this is most *easily* seen in how most major casinos operate: chips. You don't gamble with legal tender *generally speaking* in a casino, you gamble with chips issued and *owned* by the casino. Those chips have, effectively, 0 intrinsic value, that is to say, nothing about a $1000 chip and a $25 chip is appreciably different other than color. The value is arbitrarily set by the Casino. That's why, until you cash out at a Casino, you are not subject to taxes, because, in chips, you haven't actually *won* anything yet.

The same logic can be extended to loot boxes and yes, card game booster packs. As they themselves may possess no intrinsic value, they *can* be traded in eventually for cash (some may say sold) at a greater value than your initial investment. It's no different in concept than buying a penny stock, and it turning into a Fortune 500 company and that single stock increasing in value literally 1000 fold. Just because you're initial investment is small or without intrinsic value doesn't mean you get out of paying the capital gains on the increased value.

For lootboxes, this would translate *less* for the customer (who in most cases has no ability to turn their winnings into legal tender) but much so for the casino's, a.k.a. the developers, who would be subject to the 25% capital gains tax on their side of the winnings.

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1 hour ago, Final_Spark said:

I wonder how far this can be taken. TCGs have booster packs that are essentially loot boxes. Especially with individual cards that can have their barter price fluctuate due to imbalance, synergy, or the general game meta.

 

I remember getting a "Jace, the Mind Sculptor" in a Magic draft when it came out (Worldwake set). At the time one of these could net over $100 and I eventually traded it for a few full decks (pretty decent ones, too). It's a fairly low chance to get a specific rare card in even a box set which contains 36 booster packs.

 

So, can it be considered gambling if someone actually tries to pull a rare card they want from boosters instead of just buying the card by itself?

I play a lot of hearthstone and dont consider packs gambling.  For the simple reason you have garanteed min value in the pack that is actually worth something.  For instance you are garanteed 5 cards one of which at min is a rare or better, anything you already have copies of is reduced to dust used to craft any card you like and you are garanteed 1 legendary card every 40 packs.  My best was 2 legendary in 1 pack =). So you have a set minimum value.  STO's lockboxes has no real min value the items in them range far to much to be considered universally helpful to the players.   

 

I cant speak to all TCG but hearthstone at least is not what I would consider 'gambling' in its true sense.  STO lockboxes on the other hand I consider full blown gambling.

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25 minutes ago, _RC1138 said:

Intrinsic value does *not* influence is something is gambling or not. Purely based on capital gains. Even $0.01 is still gambling (hence the (now misnomered) penny slots). By the way this is most *easily* seen in how most major casinos operate: chips. You don't gamble with legal tender *generally speaking* in a casino, you gamble with chips issued and *owned* by the casino. Those chips have, effectively, 0 intrinsic value, that is to say, nothing about a $1000 chip and a $25 chip is appreciably different other than color. 

 

Sorry, "intrinsic" was the wrong word. I meant something like "officially assigned by the vendor". The cards wouldn't be gambling AFAIK, because "officially", the only value assigned to them by the vendor, is the price of the pack, divided by the number of cards. A rare card IS more valuable to have in the game, but there is no other way to get the card, so no assigned non-cash value. Any cash value assigned to them is completely beyond the purview of the vendor, and not facilitated by them. (AFAIK)

 

At the casino, those chips are assigned varying cash values by the vendor.

 

I would consider WG lootboxes gambling, because everything in them effectively has a cash value. I don't know if the EA lootbox items can be purchased outright, (and thus have a cash value) but since you can "grind" them, they do have an assigned value.

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1 hour ago, _RC1138 said:

Tangibility of an item does *not* determine if an action is gambling or not.

And I *expect* that the law will be altered in the US to include loot crates and the like as gambling for a simple reason: gambling winnings are taxed at a different rate than normal capital gains (~25-28% vs. a progressive tax on capital gains but rarely, in most circumstances, over ~20%), and as such, the *huge* profits posting by EA and other Publishers are something that the Government will want a piece of. And unlike other industries, Games does not have the same degree of respect or influence in power to prevent it.

I would be surprised if not in the next few months/year to see a change to the tax code on gambling to include loot-boxes and as such, Developers be subject to the same 25% capital gains tax that say, the operator of a lottery machine is expect to pay on income.

THIS

 

Well corporations get away with murder as to tax evasions compared to the common man , especially as of the advent  of online business, since governments have been slow on the upkeep of realizing how much "money" is flowing across the internet, and yep the TAXMAN was bound to get them .  Two things in life . Death and Taxes , which is an inside joke i think , since death really takes place afterwards. So it only remains Taxes.  Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Even JC said taxes were pretty much  of a certainty

 

Little Beatles to start your day http://www.criticalcommons.org/Members/oroark/clips/taxman-update.mp4/view

Edited by Strachwitz666

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