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Azumazi

Player's, it's time we talk about it. Torpedo Spotting!

Remove the ability for Aircraft to Spot enemy Torpedo's.  

117 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you believe this should be implimented into the game?

    • Yes to All
      37
    • No to All
      51
    • Maybe
      13
    • For Deep Running Torpedo's Only
      16

47 comments in this topic

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Now, this is a topic I've debated with players in private. Those players include Zampy and Tedster_ to some extent and overall my own personal opinion is this.

Aircraft Spotting Torpedo's has got to go...

When this mechanic first came about, the only 2 nations in game were the IJN and USN. With that in mind only their nations Cruisers had Hydro to assist in spotting torpedo's. Due to the mass complaints in CBT from all the torpedo's new modules and crew skills allowed better detection of torpedo's as well as nerfing the detection range of IJN torpedo's.

We are now coming to a close in 2017 and we now have Hydro EVERYWHERE. KM DD's with Hydro, KM BB's with Hydro (better than other nations Hydro at that). Overall, we now have more ships with Hydro in game across other classes. As it stands right now a single CV can literally lock down an enemy DD with little to no effort by just keeping his torpedo's spotted with aircraft. This effectively eliminates his ability to conduct attacks with Torpedo's. This is also one of the main reasons why CV's were removed from Clan wars.

This mechanic needs to go as it's not needed anymore and it effects a single class far more than any other. Outside of just spotting the ship having the aircraft spot the torpedo's literally 10km+ from the target long before it makes it to them means the DD in question cannot even engage said targets. This also hurts many Cruisers as their torpedo's are spotting long before they reach any said potential enemy.

This is even more obnoxious when a BB or Cruiser in question launches their catapult fighter to spot torpedo's as they work with them too. I have nothing against the CA/CL's and BB's using those planes to spot an enemy ship as that's literally what they were used for or an enemy Submarine Historically; however, spotting a torpedo that doesn't leave a visible trail on the ocean surface from standard operational altitude of 3km in a scout is literally impossible. The need for this mechanic is no longer necessary and it's harming all tiers of game play by making good CV players far capable of entirely shutting down the enemies ability to conduct torpedo runs by just keeping the torpedo's spotted and not even the enemy ship.

I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on this too.

 

Edit: Updated Poll to reflect Deep Running Torpedo's.

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At best I could see this being applied to deep water torps.

Your goal in a torpedo attack is to hit with at least one, not a full spread.

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It makes sense for planes to spot torps, I think it's fine as is.

Maybe like Pulicat suggests that they shouldn't spot deep water torps.

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DW shouldn't be spotted, but standard torps. Yeah no.

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I agree that deep water torps shouldn't be spotted from the air. But regular torps should.

 

Honestly, i don't get why anyone would want deep water torps. As a DD, the majority of my torpedo kills are on other DDs sitting in smoke. Why would I want to take that away?

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Okay, so I updated the topic to include deep running torpedo's as they have been brought up.

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I think and this has been said that torps should be spotted then lose spotting when they leave the vision range of what’s spotting them. So like plays following a dd around dosnt spot there torps for the whole time they are running etc. 

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Including DWT in your poll still gets a "No" vote from me because you still have surface torps in the mix. Aircraft shouldn't be able spot DWT. But, as @Pulicat, @JediMasterDraco, @IronWolfV, and @KaptainKaybe have said, surface torps should continue to be spotted by aircraft.

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So it's your position that, under the current system, DDs aren't torping  battleships enough?

 

Gotta disagree with that.  They are quite good at it.

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I actually think it's a really good mechanic. It requires the CV captain to think of his team, remember which ships have torpedoes, have map awareness of where those ships are and where they're likely to fire those torps, and keep in mind which of his teammates are most likely to need support (mostly those sitting still or in smoke). CVs also risk losing planes to AA or fighters by keeping them in front of their team's forward positions. It's a high teamplay, high skill, high risk, high reward tactic.

If anything, it's the hydro that should be removed, as all it needs is a push of the button and is arguably more effective.

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31 minutes ago, senseNOTmade said:

I actually think it's a really good mechanic. It requires the CV captain to think of his team, remember which ships have torpedoes, have map awareness of where those ships are and where they're likely to fire those torps, and keep in mind which of his teammates are most likely to need support (mostly those sitting still or in smoke). CVs also risk losing planes to AA or fighters by keeping them in front of their team's forward positions. It's a high teamplay, high skill, high risk, high reward tactic.

If anything, it's the hydro that should be removed, as all it needs is a push of the button and is arguably more effective.

Or I just drop a DB on a high tier IJN DD and taunt him and his carrier in open chat as I hover the empty DB over him effectively removing him for the duration of the game.  Does wonders pulling enemy fighters out of position and causing an internal rift in their team.

Not really high risk; the empty DB's are faster than their fighters but it is very easy if you don't have the skill/time to kill the DD normally with CV torpedoes.  Really annoying for the IJN DD though; if your CV is balanced loadout or strike you really can't contribute if your torpedoes are constantly spotted.

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46 minutes ago, LaffeyKaiNi said:

I think and this has been said that torps should be spotted then lose spotting when they leave the vision range of what’s spotting them. So like plays following a dd around dosnt spot there torps for the whole time they are running etc. 

Maybe a good idea but not so sure.

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I can see that happening to deepwater torpedos  as many others mentioned above, but I am conflicted as then the CV loses its use to spot deep water Torpedoes, then again maybe better as the player needs to be more wary. 

 

I personally think they should just reduce the aircraft spotting range of deepwater torpedos but they should still be spotted.

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20 minutes ago, WhimsicalPacifist said:

Or I just drop a DB on a high tier IJN DD and taunt him and his carrier in open chat as I hover the empty DB over him effectively removing him for the duration of the game. Does wonders Thus pulling enemy fighters out of position and causing an internal rift in their team.

Not really high risk; the empty DB's are faster than their fighters but it is very easy if you don't have the skill/time to kill the DD normally with CV torpedoes.  Really annoying for the IJN DD though; if your CV is balanced loadout or strike you really can't contribute if your torpedoes are constantly spotted.

So ships with bad AA need to stay close to ships with good AA, and CVs need to provide air cover for their teammates. I mean, I'm not very happy with CV gameplay myself, but the methods which the enemy team has for countering aggressive moves by your planes apply here just as much as they do in any other situation.

Plus, you're shifting the discussion more towards how easy it is for CVs to spot destroyers (which is rather unbalanced, at least for IJN DDs) rather than how easy it is for CVs to spot torpedoes. If planes couldn't spot torpedoes, then a CV could still park his DBs above enemy DDs. In fact, it might even force him to do this more, as revealing the location of the DD is now the only way he can protect his team from torpedo attack.

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1 hour ago, LaffeyKaiNi said:

I think and this has been said that torps should be spotted then lose spotting when they leave the vision range of what’s spotting them. So like plays following a dd around dosnt spot there torps for the whole time they are running etc. 

Actually, I don't think that is a problem with the time period wee are playing.  Once spotted the torps do not suddenly veer off and go another direction - especially for the early tiers.  Even then - I don't think the average torpedo in WW2 could see targets or turn to throw off spotting.  Once spotted - the line can be drawn for their course.  Keeping them 'spotted' effectively does this.

Not an expert in torpedoes and if I am wrong then someone will correct me I am sure.

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Well, remove torp spotting entirely from planes.

 

3 hours ago, Azumazi said:

Okay, so I updated the topic to include deep running torpedo's as they have been brought up.

Hmm....

 

Why not require Vigilance skill in order for planes to see torps? Captain doesn't have it, then his planes never see torps. Seems fair.

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Well lets see, I mostly play DD and BB;'s these days.. And I do it at tier VIII.  My life average on hits with torpedo's just recently climbed to 6%.  considering that I've over 8k battles played my short term hit percentage may well be over 10%.

 

SO I know about torpedo's.. and just how frustrating it can be to run a torp DD (which I do, Kagero FTW!)  And the having to deal with Hydro, RADAR, and Aircraft.   But on the other hand I have achieved some skill in the art of "Team Play".  Getting hits with torps is a rare thing.  For many players you can expend a hundred torpedo's in a match and not score a single hit (It's happened to me.. frustrating, very frustrating)  5-7 torpedo hits in a match is considered fairly outstanding, beyond that gets into the realm of "Gods of Torpedo Warfare" (I've managed it a few times.. not often)  

 

Lets start with a very pertinent and important fact.  These "sensors" only operate for a short time with a lengthy cool down before reuse.  So lengthy in point of fact that you may as well activate the moment it comes off of cool down, and yes, use the premium version.. not so much because you have more of them, but that they last longer and have a shorter cooldown so you at least get as much use as you can out of them.  (same applies to Radar).  Hydro does have a lengthy run time however.  

 

Now as noted i do drive DD's and I do drive IJN DD's who's torps can be pretty much spotted from orbit even without Aircraft, and Hydro thrown into the mix (and RADAR mess'n with your ability to get close nuff to pop fish out that might hit) .

 

  All of this is known and recognized.  How ever torpedo's are just one of the toys that DD's get to play with.  They also have guns (some good, some great, some not worth the ink on paper to complain about 'em they perform so poorly!)

typically Smoke of course, and engine boost.  

 

One thing I do quite a bit is I do know the maps pretty well these days and will typically advance to whereI have what I consider a launch point.. no targets, none needed.. just a place to put torps where I KNOW they will be seen..  I want the enemy team to see them.  I want them to react to them.. because players WILL turn their ships and show broadsides to Cruiser and BB fire to avoid a torpedo!.  I like getting kills, and I like causing damage, but I being on the winning side even better. SO DD players need to learn the long game.  Harrass, discomfit, force movement.  dont fire all your torps at once.  pay attention to how players move and how they react to potential threats..  Only played a few matches yesterday and did n't get a single torp hit.. but I kept 2 cruisers and 3 B's pinned behind a rock and being totally ineffectual in one match just because I kept sending torps past each end of the island they were behind.   They were afraid of getting torped.  They could have rushed me at any time and didn't.  Maybe I might have sunk one of them, maybe not, but I did take rapacious advantage of their desire to avoid damage to the point of keeping 5 ships pretty much out of the battle   They died behind that island once the rest of the team finished off their badly outnumbered team mates... did put a couple torps into one of the BB's and a cruiser when they finally decided to run away..(3 torps hits..that was my damage delt for the round)  Not a high score round but that battle would not have been won if I'd not kept those ships locked down.  

 

So learn to take advantage of their sensors  I don't see this issue becoming less of an issue ever.    I'd also like to recommend some reading for you.  Gordon R. Dickersons "Tactics of Mistake".  Get you pointed into developing tactics of misdirection, and learning how to deal with asymmetrical warfare which is what we do a lot in this game.  

 

It's very much like something out of an old movie... I got 6 bullets, and there's 7 of you.. Who's first?..  Even though it's only a game.. yea.. no one want's to be first!  

 

Hydro, RADAR, Aircraft.  They can ruin your day, but you can also take advantage of them and turn them against their owners with creative tactical use of what you do have..   if they insist on spotting your torpedo's they take your time and make sure they have torpedo's to spot.  Because if they're spotting yours, they may not be paying attention elsewhere.  Your playing on a TEAM.  The opportunities WILL come, but in the mean time you can create opportunities for the other players on the team.   In the end winning is what matters.  Players that chase stats spend just as much time loosing battles for their team as they do winning battles due to out right selfishness.  Play selfless.  Play for team results.

 

I realize the game its self does not encourage this.  Your rewarded for what you do, and if what you do cant be quantified with damage then your just not going to be rewarded by the games scoring system.  I've spent 3 seasons playing in Supremacy League where the game rewards are not in effect.  (we battle in "training Rooms"  no expenses, but no rewards either)  Because of that there is only one result that matters.. winning the match.  It doesn't matter who sinks the target as long as it gets sunk.  It doesn't matter who takes the cap, and long as the cap gets taken.  That "style" of play is something I've carried into the main game and my win rate has in the short term shot through the roof.  I typically pull a 60 to 70% win rate and tend to make a substantial contribution to the team I'm on winning even when my score for the match is a bit of a washout.  

 

Life in DD's is difficult.  It all ways has been.  For all your great damage dealing potential, it's still just potential until it actually happens.  The higher you go in tier the more difficult it gets.   But un-surprisingly it's no different over all then it is for BB, CA, and CV drivers.  They also have their challenges, and trust me, they are in mortal FEAR of DD's and their torps.   If WG were to put more realistic torpedo spotting mechanics into this game (if they ever do then they'll need to do away with the torpedo "lead" indicator just to be fair) then the number of torpedo carrying DD's and Cruisers in a match would need to be drastically limited just to maintain some amount of a fair and balanced battle. 

 

I'm not crazy about how the games does certain things but believe me when I tell you it could be much much worse.

 

yea, way way worse.

 

 

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1 hour ago, senseNOTmade said:

So ships with bad AA need to stay close to ships with good AA, and CVs need to provide air cover for their teammates. I mean, I'm not very happy with CV gameplay myself, but the methods which the enemy team has for countering aggressive moves by your planes apply here just as much as they do in any other situation.

Plus, you're shifting the discussion more towards how easy it is for CVs to spot destroyers (which is rather unbalanced, at least for IJN DDs) rather than how easy it is for CVs to spot torpedoes. If planes couldn't spot torpedoes, then a CV could still park his DBs above enemy DDs. In fact, it might even force him to do this more, as revealing the location of the DD is now the only way he can protect his team from torpedo attack.

Maybe actually play the classes in question before you make assumptions about how the matchup plays out.  Your highest tier IJN DD is the Isokaze.

The IJN DDs are fatally over reliant upon the torpedoes to affect the game.  If they are negated completely by aircraft (and denied positions to launch torpedoes) that IJN DD player could have played a gunboat 2 tiers lower and been more useful.

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4 minutes ago, WhimsicalPacifist said:

The IJN DDs are fatally over reliant upon the torpedoes to affect the game.  If they are negated completely by aircraft (and denied positions to launch torpedoes) that IJN DD player could have played a gunboat 2 tiers lower and been more useful.

As I said in my previous post, I do agree that CV planes are too good at spotting destroyers. However, as I said in my previous post, the usual counters of seeking AA cover and relying on the friendly CV, do still apply here. A destroyer with its high speed is far more capable of leading the planes into the AA bubble of a Neptune than a slow-[edited]BB would be, and the friendly CV should be just as busy pushing back any spotting planes as the enemy is in pushing them forward.

Further, as I said in my first post, spotting destroyers does require microing, tends to involve losing planes to AA, has risks of being intercepted, and has a large opportunity cost, particularly for USN CVs, because you can't use that squadron to do anything else while you're spotting.

Lastly, as I said in my previous post, what you are talking about are the problems of having the destroyer itself be spotted, and there are legitimate balancing complaints about this. However, this thread is more about torpedo spotting, not just for DDs but also for CA/CLs, and in particular how plane spotting compares with hydro. My argument was by no means that plane spotting is a perfect mechanic; only that it is preferable to simply giving everyone hydro.

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21 minutes ago, senseNOTmade said:

As I said in my previous post, I do agree that CV planes are too good at spotting destroyers. However, as I said in my previous post, the usual counters of seeking AA cover and relying on the friendly CV, do still apply here. A destroyer with its high speed is far more capable of leading the planes into the AA bubble of a Neptune than a slow-[edited]BB would be, and the friendly CV should be just as busy pushing back any spotting planes as the enemy is in pushing them forward.

Further, as I said in my first post, spotting destroyers does require microing, tends to involve losing planes to AA, has risks of being intercepted, and has a large opportunity cost, particularly for USN CVs, because you can't use that squadron to do anything else while you're spotting.

Lastly, as I said in my previous post, what you are talking about are the problems of having the destroyer itself be spotted, and there are legitimate balancing complaints about this. However, this thread is more about torpedo spotting, not just for DDs but also for CA/CLs, and in particular how plane spotting compares with hydro. My argument was by no means that plane spotting is a perfect mechanic; only that it is preferable to simply giving everyone hydro.

Last night I had a game in kagero, where our CV was a potato, enemy CV was keeping all torpedoes spotted, most of our destroyers spotted and in general was free to do anything he wanted.

I did 0 damage that game, not one of my torpedoes hit a target due to planes spotting them constantly, 2ce I tried to get within 6-7km to make sure at least one hit, but was spotted by said planes and had to run away. None of our DDs were able to do anything but cap a single point and died promptly due to spotting. You simply cannot always be glued to CAs and still do anything fun or useful in a dd. Besides, our CAs were also bad...

Tell me how is that fair and balanced? Oh and do not even attempt to teach me how to play DDs, go look at my stats if you will.

A single ship should not make 3-5 DDs on enemy team 100% invalid just because they got a crap CV player.

 

EDIT: always find it funny that people saying "everything is fine as it is" are those with "Very rarely uses torpedoes" or super unicums or only play divisions... so yeah

Edited by Vaitmana
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4 hours ago, Kapitan_Wuff said:

It makes sense for planes to spot torps, I think it's fine as is.

Maybe like Pulicat suggests that they shouldn't spot deep water torps.

If you can point me in the direction of historical, era specific examples of using aircraft as torpedo screens, id appreciate it. Ship spotting? All day long. But im think torpedo spotting examples are going to be very few and far between.

Even dat "historical accuracy" wont save this one.

Edited by Mulletproof
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4 minutes ago, Vaitmana said:

Tell me how is that fair and balanced? Oh and do not even attempt to teach me how to play DDs, go look at my stats if you will.

A single ship should not make 3-5 DDs on enemy team 100% invalid just because they got a crap CV player.

This game tries to get people to work as a team by specializing the classes into the distinct roles which mutually support each other; a goal which is generally supported by most players. However, one of the oft-overlooked downsides of specializing classes is that it makes players dependent on their teammates performing their roles, in order to perform their own roles.

This problem might be more blatant in the case of DDs because they rely on large alpha strikes, and it might be more obvious in the case of CVs because of the duel format MM. However, a BB is also reliant on DDs and radar ships to spot for him. A CA is reliant on the BBs to tank damage. A CV is reliant on CAs to protect his squadrons, a DD is reliant on covering fire to protect himself from radar. A BB is reliant on the DDs to contest caps, a RN CL is reliant on CAs to radar for him, a CV is reliant on all the other ships to protect him from sneaky DDs and the list goes on and on. If you could single handedly win the game and do massive damage despite half your team seemingly being complete idiots, that wouldn't be balanced either, and it certainly wouldn't encourage teamwork.

I seem to remember discussions of win rates on this forum, and people talking about how, no matter how good you are, only about 20% of matches will be under your control. Hence most players' winrates are in the 40%-70% range. In the other 80% of games, either your team would have won regardless of what you did, or your team is made up of such potatoes that no matter how skilled you might be, you simply will not have the support you need to turn the match. And this is the case regardless of which ship class you play.

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20 minutes ago, senseNOTmade said:

This game tries to get people to work as a team by specializing the classes into the distinct roles which mutually support each other; a goal which is generally supported by most players. However, one of the oft-overlooked downsides of specializing classes is that it makes players dependent on their teammates performing their roles, in order to perform their own roles.

This problem might be more blatant in the case of DDs because they rely on large alpha strikes, and it might be more obvious in the case of CVs because of the duel format MM. However, a BB is also reliant on DDs and radar ships to spot for him. A CA is reliant on the BBs to tank damage. A CV is reliant on CAs to protect his squadrons, a DD is reliant on covering fire to protect himself from radar. A BB is reliant on the DDs to contest caps, a RN CL is reliant on CAs to radar for him, a CV is reliant on all the other ships to protect him from sneaky DDs and the list goes on and on. If you could single handedly win the game and do massive damage despite half your team seemingly being complete idiots, that wouldn't be balanced either, and it certainly wouldn't encourage teamwork.

I seem to remember discussions of win rates on this forum, and people talking about how, no matter how good you are, only about 20% of matches will be under your control. Hence most players' winrates are in the 40%-70% range. In the other 80% of games, either your team would have won regardless of what you did, or your team is made up of such potatoes that no matter how skilled you might be, you simply will not have the support you need to turn the match. And this is the case regardless of which ship class you play.

I agree with everything you said, but one thing. CVs do not follow this philosophy precisely, a win or a loss is almost completely dependent on whether your CV is better or not. A single player should not have so much power.

If there was an option to play without CVs, I would chose it, they bring nothing interesting or fun for me to gameplay, only hard counter dds and ruin fun games.

Edited by Vaitmana

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