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SwagOver9000Boi

Lets talk about Graf Zeppelin 2

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I have been told that the GZ 2 is balanced. Well WG, its not. Here are some suggested nerfs and buffs I think would make the GZ Strike Loadout a lot more balanced. Here I will focus on how the Dive Bombers and Torpedo Bombers could be balanced.

1.  Reduce number of planes in a Dive Bomber Squadron from 10 planes to 8 planes and make dive bomber squadrons slower. In return for this decrease, the player can have a choice between HE and AP bombs so during high tier matches Graf Zeppelin captains can have a positive impact on the game

2. Make a tighter drop pattern and increase damage dealt by torpedoes. In return however, the torpedoes are slower and easier to dodge. Meanwhile, to avoid players just using Torpedo Acceleration skill to get rid of this nerf, make sure the torpedo squads cannot drop from very close to enemy ships with manual drop

3. Fix Fuse time on torpedoes. It would be ideal to increase the fuse time of GZ torpedo squadrons to near where American and Japanese Fuse times are. This is only because of the quantity of complaints about this fuse time. The fuse time does not even have to be very close to American and Japanese fuse times, but increased somewhat.

Thats about it. If anyone in the comments notice anything I missed, let me know. Thanks

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36 minutes ago, SwagOver9000Boi said:

I have been told that the GZ 2 is balanced. Well WG, its not. Here are some suggested nerfs and buffs I think would make the GZ Strike Loadout a lot more balanced. Here I will focus on how the Dive Bombers and Torpedo Bombers could be balanced.

1.  Reduce number of planes in a Dive Bomber Squadron from 10 planes to 8 planes and make dive bomber squadrons slower. In return for this decrease, the player can have a choice between HE and AP bombs so during high tier matches Graf Zeppelin captains can have a positive impact on the game

2. Make a tighter drop pattern and increase damage dealt by torpedoes. In return however, the torpedoes are slower and easier to dodge. Meanwhile, to avoid players just using Torpedo Acceleration skill to get rid of this nerf, make sure the torpedo squads cannot drop from very close to enemy ships with manual drop

3. Fix Fuse time on torpedoes. It would be ideal to increase the fuse time of GZ torpedo squadrons to near where American and Japanese Fuse times are. This is only because of the quantity of complaints about this fuse time. The fuse time does not even have to be very close to American and Japanese fuse times, but increased somewhat.

Thats about it. If anyone in the comments notice anything I missed, let me know. Thanks

players already have this choice. Yuo should be able to switch loadouts in the modules window when in port. It would be good to be able to switch in game during battles however. AS you say, HE is far more useful when matched against tier10s./

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10 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

players already have this choice. Yuo should be able to switch loadouts in the modules window when in port. It would be good to be able to switch in game during battles however. AS you say, HE is far more useful when matched against tier10s./

I would like to make a analogy to DF, you take a risk in a cruiser that can use hydro when you take DF instead as you can't be sure there will be a carrier. But if there's a carrier then you might have been better off with DF.

But hydro works in all situations too.

 

Now you either choose AP and risk not getting enough DMG if you get a high tier match or you take HE which works always.

 

I feel it's pretty fair. I would like the ability to change in battle but I do wonder how it would impact other classes and whether it will be balanced.

 

Edited by Silver_kun

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The Reason why the GZ II seems overpowered is because of 3 main reasons in my opinion,

 

1.It has deep water torpedoes that only strike BB's And CV's thus the main target for the GZ II is big healthy BB's, this is the main reason why it gets massive damage in a lot of games.

2.People are extremely ignorant of what the GZ II is capable of thus they basically ignore it with the flawed belief they are untouchable.

3. People dont understand the mechanics of the AP bomb.

 

With all that being sad removing the Deep Water torpedoes then changing the fuse timer would help because the GZ II would be way more busy trying to protect the team from other threats such as DD's and CA's, causing a lower damage output over all but allowing it to support the team better.

However removing the ability for a captain to use the torpedo acceleration skill is a horrible idea, instead I would counter by saying it should just be a more specific point of failure for the drop distance.

When it comes to choosing AP or HE mid game, everyone has been calling for that but it still hasn't come to pass so it may never happen.

 

Overall though I think the GZ I is the more balanced choice in my opinion.

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I just wish they would let people chose wich bombs they want to you on the GZ give us the option of the SC500 or the SC250 and have the smaller bomb reload faster

Edited by skull_122_steel

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@Goliath654 I also feel the no. Of planes per squadron...

 

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4 hours ago, Goliath654 said:

The Reason why the GZ II seems overpowered is because of 3 main reasons in my opinion,

 

1.It has deep water torpedoes that only strike BB's And CV's thus the main target for the GZ II is big healthy BB's, this is the main reason why it gets massive damage in a lot of games.

2.People are extremely ignorant of what the GZ II is capable of thus they basically ignore it with the flawed belief they are untouchable.

3. People dont understand the mechanics of the AP bomb.

 

With all that being sad removing the Deep Water torpedoes then changing the fuse timer would help because the GZ II would be way more busy trying to protect the team from other threats such as DD's and CA's, causing a lower damage output over all but allowing it to support the team better.

However removing the ability for a captain to use the torpedo acceleration skill is a horrible idea, instead I would counter by saying it should just be a more specific point of failure for the drop distance.

When it comes to choosing AP or HE mid game, everyone has been calling for that but it still hasn't come to pass so it may never happen.

 

Overall though I think the GZ I is the more balanced choice in my opinion.

I didn't exactly say I wanted to remove deepwater torpedoes, I said change fuse time.

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Hmm... Im surprised nobody has pointed this out about the bimbs, but how about that damage? And attack pattern? How are the AP bombs balanced, exactly, and how do they even work? After watching this lovely video, those bombs just seem... absolutely ridicoulus. The auto drop is literally a round circle. No need to pick a smart attack angle, just point, click, and kill. Really? I'll link the parts that just show off what I mean, exactly.

 

Dive Bomber Strike 1 - Bismarck                      Dive Bomber Strike 2 - King George V                     Dive Bomber Strike 3 - Shokaku

 

Since someone will ask, they are links to three different bomber strikes in Flamu's GZ Strem Highlight Video.

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Please no more circular DB strike pattern.

 

There is almost no skillful counter for ship being striked to reduce damage taken and no maneuver needed from CV player to enhance chance of better strike.

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Really - does anybody actually play the Graf Zeppelin in random?  I take mine to Random just to get frustrated as heck !!!!   1 fighter squadron - the other carriers have 2 (unless they are morons and go with a strike package on a Lexington) so all they do is hang their fighters together - 1 pins your fighters - the other comes in to strafe as they click to exit with the first squadron -- BANG 10 dead fighters.  2nd - the 10 (9+1) dive bombers with HE is the saving grace of the GZ Test 2 ship -- it can punish that DD who is coming for you since the Deep water torps will ONLY hit a BB or CV. Playing Random battles that means 70% to 90% of the ships CAN'T be touched by the torps so now the Cruisers as well are safe from you. the USS Enterprise (hey a T8 premium CV) will walk all over your butt. Now yeah, every other few battles - i can catch a stupid BB or CV out away from others and nail him with those deep water babies and hurt him real bad - but attacking a T10 BB with 10 torp planes (t7's) -- maybe 2 or 3 planes come home -- YOU won't do it all game long -- you will be out of planes before long before the battle is over.

 

By the way -- AP bombs are absolutely stupid gimic. They only do real damage to BB's and CA's -- bang right through lighter ships and there is NO FLOODING OR FIRES -- never ever do i use them.  Wargaming, keep your AP bombs - give the GZ torps  and lets go with it: My only issue with the two GZ test ships is the 1 (ONE) darn fighter squadron -- its getting killed by straffing.

2 Fighter squadrons (4 planes each before captains skill)

1 Dive Bomber sqdn (9+1) is great

2 Torp Bomber sqdn (5 ea)

or  

Current loadout (2 fighter and 3 dive bomber squadrons and let player choose before match for HE or AP)

 

 

Edited by BlackOP6

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4 hours ago, BlackOP6 said:

Really - does anybody actually play the Graf Zeppelin in random?  I take mine to Random just to get frustrated as heck !!!!   1 fighter squadron - the other carriers have 2 (unless they are morons and go with a strike package on a Lexington) so all they do is hang their fighters together - 1 pins your fighters - the other comes in to strafe as they click to exit with the first squadron -- BANG 10 dead fighters.  2nd - the 10 (9+1) dive bombers with HE is the saving grace of the GZ Test 2 ship -- it can punish that DD who is coming for you since the Deep water torps will ONLY hit a BB or CV. Playing Random battles that means 70% to 90% of the ships CAN'T be touched by the torps so now the Cruisers as well are safe from you. the USS Enterprise (hey a T8 premium CV) will walk all over your butt. Now yeah, every other few battles - i can catch a stupid BB or CV out away from others and nail him with those deep water babies and hurt him real bad - but attacking a T10 BB with 10 torp planes (t7's) -- maybe 2 or 3 planes come home -- YOU won't do it all game long -- you will be out of planes before long before the battle is over.

 

By the way -- AP bombs are absolutely stupid gimic. They only do real damage to BB's and CA's -- bang right through lighter ships and there is NO FLOODING OR FIRES -- never ever do i use them.  Wargaming, keep your AP bombs - give the GZ torps  and lets go with it: My only issue with the two GZ test ships is the 1 (ONE) darn fighter squadron -- its getting killed by straffing.

2 Fighter squadrons (4 planes each before captains skill)

1 Dive Bomber sqdn (9+1) is great

2 Torp Bomber sqdn (5 ea)

or  

Current loadout (2 fighter and 3 dive bomber squadrons and let player choose before match for HE or AP)

 

 

I understand, but what I am referring to is an option for the player to choose IN GAME if they want to use AP or HE bombs. Lets put this into perspective. You are playing the Graf Zeppelin. A enemy destroyer has broken through your teams defenses and is coming at you. If you have chosen AP bombs before the battle. You are completely inefective and no help to your team

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On 11/18/2017 at 2:50 PM, Silver_kun said:

I would like to make a analogy to DF, you take a risk in a cruiser that can use hydro when you take DF instead as you can't be sure there will be a carrier. But if there's a carrier then you might have been better off with DF.

But hydro works in all situations too.

 

Now you either choose AP and risk not getting enough DMG if you get a high tier match or you take HE which works always.

 

I feel it's pretty fair. I would like the ability to change in battle but I do wonder how it would impact other classes and whether it will be balanced.

 

This. You get to pick the all target HE bombs or the specialist AP bombs. The same way cruiser have to choose between hydro and df. 

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9 hours ago, StoneRhino said:

This. You get to pick the all target HE bombs or the specialist AP bombs. The same way cruiser have to choose between hydro and df. 

 

Yeah, but Hydro and DF are consumables, where as HE and AP are weapon choices. All ships can change between AP and HE (Unless you're a select set of RN Cruisers for obvious reasons) so why can't carriers change between AP bombs and HE bombs? Now of course, if they have AP bombs on their planes and they spot a target that would be good for HE bombs, they would still have to bring the planes back to change out the bombs.

 

Aircraft Carriers are all about the versatility, being able to fill in multiple roles for the team. This would add more damage versatility, making it so carriers could use different bombs on different targets and help their team out more efficiently instead of being forced to go after specific ship classes in a match to be effective.

 

Besides, in what world would a CV not have both HE and AP bombs on board? 

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1 hour ago, AllysaRockz said:

 

Yeah, but Hydro and DF are consumables, where as HE and AP are weapon choices. All ships can change between AP and HE (Unless you're a select set of RN Cruisers for obvious reasons) so why can't carriers change between AP bombs and HE bombs? Now of course, if they have AP bombs on their planes and they spot a target that would be good for HE bombs, they would still have to bring the planes back to change out the bombs.

 

Aircraft Carriers are all about the versatility, being able to fill in multiple roles for the team. This would add more damage versatility, making it so carriers could use different bombs on different targets and help their team out more efficiently instead of being forced to go after specific ship classes in a match to be effective.

 

Besides, in what world would a CV not have both HE and AP bombs on board? 

The point is to much versatility. You have a choice just like people have a choice with DF. You don't get to change it because you see something in that battle that the other choice would have been better. 

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8 hours ago, AllysaRockz said:

 

Yeah, but Hydro and DF are consumables, where as HE and AP are weapon choices. All ships can change between AP and HE (Unless you're a select set of RN Cruisers for obvious reasons) so why can't carriers change between AP bombs and HE bombs? Now of course, if they have AP bombs on their planes and they spot a target that would be good for HE bombs, they would still have to bring the planes back to change out the bombs.

 

Aircraft Carriers are all about the versatility, being able to fill in multiple roles for the team. This would add more damage versatility, making it so carriers could use different bombs on different targets and help their team out more efficiently instead of being forced to go after specific ship classes in a match to be effective.

 

Besides, in what world would a CV not have both HE and AP bombs on board? 

Whaaaaat?????  Make a Carrier FUN to play and Versatile ----- you are NOT a representative of Wargaming, that is for sure.

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22 hours ago, StoneRhino said:

The point is to much versatility. You have a choice just like people have a choice with DF. You don't get to change it because you see something in that battle that the other choice would have been better. 

 

Erm... I already said, those are consumables. What we're talking about is bomb loadout. Ships can change ammunition types in game depending on the situation they find themselves in, so again I say, why can't bombers change their bombs out? This is not game changing in any way, like having DF over Hydro when a CV comes to strike you. It's just a basic game mechanic that should have been introduced right at the start of implementation for AP bombs, allowing you to switch which bombs you have loaded to better fight in certain situations. :fish_glass:

 

15 hours ago, BlackOP6 said:

Whaaaaat?????  Make a Carrier FUN to play and Versatile ----- you are NOT a representative of Wargaming, that is for sure.

 

I'm flattered, but WG isn't that bad.

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On 25/11/2017 at 3:22 PM, BlackOP6 said:

I take mine to Random just to get frustrated as heck !!!!   1 fighter squadron - the other carriers have 2 (unless they are morons and go with a strike package on a Lexington) so all they do is hang their fighters together - 1 pins your fighters - the other comes in to strafe as they click to exit with the first squadron -- BANG 10 dead fighters. 

this.

and you know what, try mentioning that to an ST CV player. people are being taken for a ride.

On 25/11/2017 at 3:22 PM, BlackOP6 said:

Really - does anybody actually play the Graf Zeppelin in random? 

I play the vanilla GZ with HE bombers and 2 x fighter groups quite often, so do a few others, a dedicated and much reviled minority :Smile_hiding:

The test versions 2, or at least, as far as completing our supertest missions for the rewards. (A little more this last test, due to divs)

On 25/11/2017 at 8:21 PM, SwagOver9000Boi said:

I understand, but what I am referring to is an option for the player to choose IN GAME if they want to use AP or HE bombs. Lets put this into perspective. You are playing the Graf Zeppelin. A enemy destroyer has broken through your teams defenses and is coming at you. If you have chosen AP bombs before the battle. You are completely inefective and no help to your team

Many GZ testers have been asking for this since August, but all we have had from Facebook and survey feedback is one very deaf ear. WG do not want to know. (Even though it would go a very long way to resolving the issues we had with the original premium shop version)

On 19/11/2017 at 8:21 AM, AllysaRockz said:

Hmm... Im surprised nobody has pointed this out about the bimbs, but how about that damage? And attack pattern? How are the AP bombs balanced, exactly, and how do they even work? After watching this lovely video, those bombs just seem... absolutely ridicoulus. The auto drop is literally a round circle. No need to pick a smart attack angle, just point, click, and kill. Really? I'll link the parts that just show off what I mean, exactly.

 

Dive Bomber Strike 1 - Bismarck                      Dive Bomber Strike 2 - King George V                     Dive Bomber Strike 3 - Shokaku

 

Since someone will ask, they are links to three different bomber strikes in Flamu's GZ Strem Highlight Video.

The rng of dive bomb drops is far more realistic than the rigid drop patterns of torpedo bombers. If anything, torpedo bomb drop patterrns should be subject to sigma.dispersion rules. I am surprised none of you have thought of this counter argument. Plane dropped torpedo spreads should be chaotic, and unpredictable, the opposite of what we see in game right now.

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17 minutes ago, nuttybiscuit said:

I am surprised none of you have thought of this counter argument. Plane dropped torpedo spreads should be chaotic, and unpredictable, the opposite of what we see in game right now.

 

I would care more about the torpedoes if I didn't know how to dodge incoming torpedoes, and if not dodging, then on how to take the minimal amount of damage when letting them hit me. Air dropped torpedoes aren't threatening to me provided I have my speed up and I'm paying attention. :cap_cool: If they were randomly put about with every single drop, that would probably just make it even easier.

 

With those dive bombers, there are absolutely no skills involved. It's literally just point and click, and you'll do just as well with the dive bombers as a super unicum would. Maybe it is more realistic, but if all bombers dropped like that, a perfect, small circle, I'm sure you'd fine people would be quite upset with that, since no amount of evasion or dodging will save you. I know you didn't say anything about the damage, but that's something to keep note of here... if the bombs are so accurate, and they do massive amounts of damage with no way of avoiding them, I'm sure you see the problem.

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Just now, AllysaRockz said:

 

I would care more about the torpedoes if I didn't know how to dodge incoming torpedoes, and if not dodging, then on how to take the minimal amount of damage when letting them hit me. Air dropped torpedoes aren't threatening to me provided I have my speed up and I'm paying attention. :cap_cool: If they were randomly put about with every single drop, that would probably just make it even easier.

 

With those dive bombers, there are absolutely no skills involved. It's literally just point and click, and you'll do just as well with the dive bombers as a super unicum would. Maybe it is more realistic, but if all bombers dropped like that, a perfect, small circle, I'm sure you'd fine people would be quite upset with that, since no amount of evasion or dodging will save you. I know you didn't say anything about the damage, but that's something to keep note of here... if the bombs are so accurate, and they do massive amounts of damage with no way of avoiding them, I'm sure you see the problem.

Kaga has torpedos, point and click, its drop pattern designed expressly to be impossible to miss, massive damage. Why no complaints? Kaga's torpedos are in fact worse, because they can hit and sink all classes of ships from t5 to t9, dds, cruisers and battleships are all viable targets.

GZ AP bombs? Yes point and click to hit, but over pen on dds, over pen on many cruisers, auto miss on anything Russian, only really effective vs German and Japanese battleships. That's right, ONLY effective vs 1 class of ship of only 2 tech trees.

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12 hours ago, AllysaRockz said:

 

Erm... I already said, those are consumables. What we're talking about is bomb loadout. Ships can change ammunition types in game depending on the situation they find themselves in, so again I say, why can't bombers change their bombs out? This is not game changing in any way, like having DF over Hydro when a CV comes to strike you. It's just a basic game mechanic that should have been introduced right at the start of implementation for AP bombs, allowing you to switch which bombs you have loaded to better fight in certain situations. :fish_glass:

 

 

I'm flattered, but WG isn't that bad.

No it's not an ammo types it's a loadout selection. Just like you cannot change AS to strike for example. Someone can't change thier hull during the game. For example you cannot use a Nurnberg B hull until you see a cv and switch to the C hull. 

 

I know your going to throw out some nonsense about "we're talking about two different types of bombs and not a hull, big difference". If we were talking about real life I would agree. However, this is a game and therefore subject things like balance.

 

How ap bombs currently exist it should be a choice you have to make. You want versatility pick HE and is you want high alpha specialisation pick AP. It's that simple.

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Both of you guys made good arguments. 

 

On one hand, the specialization makes it more “balanced” by letting a 3rd party (matchmaking) tell you whether or not your loadout is good.

 

On the other hand, bombs are ammo types, and every other ship can switch between HE and AP ammo types. 

 

I have 2 suggestions, make a smaller drop circle so you can use skill to aim for specific spots and not miss. Although at the cost of not switching ammunition types in battle. Or, have a SAP bomb instead of full AP that has a low penetration fuse but a long enough detonation time to citadel vulnerable cruisers while not overpenning DDs and a low (German) fire chance and alpha damage (~6000). 

 

Or both, not circular bomb drop accuracy needs betterment if that is their main damage.

Edited by GabeTheDespot
Fixed it, I was forgetting whether it was Enterprise or GZ we were talking about

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11 minutes ago, GabeTheDespot said:

USN bomb accuracy needs betterment if that is their main damage.

What has this got to do with GZ? (jealousy?)

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