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panzerdeal61

Carriers : a high value target.

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   Well, I know the approved video says to support your team mates,  But shooting up Cruisers and battleships may not be your best choice.  Face it, an airplane with no place to land and refuel is lost.. and the game designers realize it. Even Though the maps short change them by 150  miles or so on range, the aircraft also out range the big guns by miles, and will Continue do so, until "WORLD OF MISSILE CRUISERS" comes out. Blasting past the surface ships to get the carriers, hopefully will be the BEST AA protection you can supply.. for your WHOLE team, not just 1 specific ship.

  Capturing the bases can be accomplished by slower team units, while faster  elements  could and should be detailed to carrier hunts. Reasons: Protection and points: CV's also  rack up the highest point scores FOR your team , and for your opponents, subtract costs the highest as a loss: [ higher than you gain, a double whammy. Remember, while you see it as a +45 point gain for sinking an enemy, HE sees it as -65 point loss for loosing an Ally..] In theory, a defeat on base points can be offset by points in ship losses, resulting in a Defeat becoming a draw..  

One should pay attention to the math.. in any game, it can be critical.

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Carriers1.jpg

Edited by panzerdeal61
Minor rewording.
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Problem with that is, CV takes time to get to. If most of your team is going after it on a Domination map, and the other team is playing normally, in most cases, by the time you kill the CV, the points gained will be less than or equal to what you lost by not seriously contesting, and the enemy, having already a positional advantage, can send a few ships to kill your CV in turn. You're also not softening up enemy AA with module kills.

 

Add to that, that depending on tier, by the time you've spent all that effort killing the CV, his fighters might have basically shut down your CV anyway.

 

And yes, planes have long range, and good destructive potential, but that danger is balanced by their glacial reload, and possibility of being attritted en route.

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Um... well, it would be nice if you could coordinate a team wide push to run over the enemy carrier. However... higher tier CVs are quite fast given their size, and if your team blindly pushes a flank to try and kill the CV, chances are the enemy CV will be on the exact opposite flank, behind all those enemies you've neglected to face on the other flank. Y'know, since they can see and spot with their planes where the entire enemy team went. xP Even if the push is successful, you'll probably end up with a lot of casualties, and with the teams basically flipping spawns.

 

There's a certain map I hate because that is all that ever seems to happen on it, which is Trident. Basically, whoever pushes first loses a lot of their ships and the team that circled around after the initial push then comes in to mop up. I can see what you're getting at with your reasoning, but it just doesn't work in this game. It may work with destroyers in low tier games, since they're so stealthy and with little to counter them, but it definitely doesn't work past tier six, were carriers can easily and effectively shift their positions.

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6 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Problem with that is, CV takes time to get to. If most of your team is going after it on a Domination map, and the other team is playing normally, in most cases, by the time you kill the CV, the points gained will be less than or equal to what you lost by not seriously contesting, and the enemy, having already a positional advantage, can send a few ships to kill your CV in turn. You're also not softening up enemy AA with module kills.

 

Add to that, that depending on tier, by the time you've spent all that effort killing the CV, his fighters might have basically shut down your CV anyway.

 

And yes, planes have long range, and good destructive potential, but that danger is balanced by their glacial reload, and possibility of being attritted en route.

A BIG reason for Battlecruisres..30 knots can make ab difference. Primary prey of the BC, like the Kongo, ISD "soft skins"..

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8 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Problem with that is, CV takes time to get to. If most of your team is going after it on a Domination map, and the other team is playing normally, in most cases, by the time you kill the CV, the points gained will be less than or equal to what you lost by not seriously contesting, and the enemy, having already a positional advantage, can send a few ships to kill your CV in turn. You're also not softening up enemy AA with module kills.

 

Add to that, that depending on tier, by the time you've spent all that effort killing the CV, his fighters might have basically shut down your CV anyway.

 

And yes, planes have long range, and good destructive potential, but that danger is balanced by their glacial reload, and possibility of being attritted en route.

A division of 1 Kongo and 2 destroyers, a simple fix.

 

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7 minutes ago, AllysaRockz said:

Um... well, it would be nice if you could coordinate a team wide push to run over the enemy carrier. However... higher tier CVs are quite fast given their size, and if your team blindly pushes a flank to try and kill the CV, chances are the enemy CV will be on the exact opposite flank, behind all those enemies you've neglected to face on the other flank. Y'know, since they can see and spot with their planes where the entire enemy team went. xP Even if the push is successful, you'll probably end up with a lot of casualties, and with the teams basically flipping spawns.

 

There's a certain map I hate because that is all that ever seems to happen on it, which is Trident. Basically, whoever pushes first loses a lot of their ships and the team that circled around after the initial push then comes in to mop up. I can see what you're getting at with your reasoning, but it just doesn't work in this game. It may work with destroyers in low tier games, since they're so stealthy and with little to counter them, but it definitely doesn't work past tier six, were carriers can easily and effectively shift their positions.

Divisions : they are there for a reason. .also known as a Task Group inside the Task Force.

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3 minutes ago, panzerdeal61 said:

Divisions : they are there for a reason. .also known as a Task Group inside the Task Force.

 

Well, if you have two destroyers and a Kongo gunning for a carrier in a game, that's fine, provided the carrier is American and below tier 5. The Japanese carriers aren't faster than you, but there's no way you're going to hunt them down at the start of a game, unless the entire enemy team heads off in one direction and the carrier isn't paying attention. What I'm more concerned about is that you'd be wasting the potential of those two destroyers. Especially if you're playing a match of Domination or Epicenter. Having not one, but two DDs on your team just completely ignoring the objectives and going deep into enemy territory to kill the carrier will throw 7 games out of 10 right from the get go. :Smile_sad:  I know how it feels when my DDs don't play the objective when I'm in my BB...

 

Without cap superiority, you'll lose the game on points before your team can even react... and that's because the only ships that are effective at capping early game decided to go rabbit hunting instead of playing the objective. Yeah, I get it, the points difference for sinking a Carrier is massive... but so is that of a battleship, and with the battleship you don't have to essentially throw away two DD's on an epic flank to get the points. :Smile_great:

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Only low-tier carriers can be caught, and only bad carriers are caught away from support.

I realize that describes a huge percentage of CV players, but it's not something to build a strategy around.

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24 minutes ago, panzerdeal61 said:

A Division of 1 Kongo and 2 Destroyers..simple fix.

 

That's not a "team wide push" though.

 

And putting your team at a 2-DD disadvantage in cap contesting basically hands the enemy the caps.

 

Effectively removing 2-3 ships from the main battle to hunt the CV means that you're looking at 5-10 minutes of the enemy having a 2-3 ship advantage. Game could be over before you even see the CV. When a team loses 2-3 ships right at the start of the match, it's usually a short one.

 

And you might as well not send the Kongo, it's well-nigh impossible for it to sneak past the line, and once it's spotted, it's going to be engaged. (and a Kongo with no AA support that's been seen coming your way practically begs the enemy CV to come after it)

 

Also, one major consideration, unlike with any other ship type, is player skill. A bad CV driver is no threat at all, and can be pretty much ignored. And you won't know if he's bad (a lot are) before you're way out of position trying to catch him.

Edited by Skpstr
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I love when many enemy ships start hunting for my cv. This means less pressure on  my allies and we can get the caps. Also as long as I kite away i can hit them with lots of aircraft and have a quick reload since they aren't as far away.

Edited by RipNuN2

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Keep fixated on my Carrier, OP, cause 'it's coming for you'.

In most cases, you won't even get close enough to me to cause me any concern.

A Kongo & 2 DDs as a CV hunter group? T5s? Rofl.  Depending on what ship you use, GL in getting 2 other suiciders to join you.

 

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I love in lower tier games when I run out of planes so move my carrier closer to the friendlies than it was. Everyone stops shooting my beat up team mates to get that juicy juicy carrier kill. Lotta times it can cost the enemy team the game as they gun down my worthless carrier.

 

Hate when it happens to my team though.. damn target fixation 

 

But I don't know, I think to much goes into trying to deal with carriers and costs team games. They have an impact but I think it's overstated simply because you can't return fire on them. I at times used to actively hunt the enemy carrier in my carrier.. found I lost more games doing that than just working over the BBs and CAs my team is engaged with

Edited by Winters_night

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9 minutes ago, Winters_night said:

 I at times used to actively hunt the enemy carrier in my carrier.. found I lost more games doing that than just working over the BBs and CAs my team is engaged with

 

Yup. And a lot of the time, if you help your team push back the enemy, they get the CV anyway.

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Carrier hunting is a waste of effort. Even CV snipes are a big gamble.

If it gets caught out of position, sure, send him under. Otherwise, don't bother.

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1 hour ago, panzerdeal61 said:

   Well, I know the approved video says to support your team mates,  But shooting up Cruisers and battleships may not be your best choice.  Face it, an airplane with no place to land and refuel is lost.. and the game designers realize it. Even Though the maps short change them by 150  miles or so on range, the aircraft also out range the big guns by miles, and will Continue do so, until "WORLD OF MISSILE CRUISERS" comes out. Blasting past the surface ships to get the carriers, hopefully will be the BEST AA protection you can supply.. for your WHOLE team, not just 1 specific ship.

  Capturing the bases can be accomplished by slower team units, while faster  elements  could and should be detailed to carrier hunts. Reasons: Protection and points: CV's also  rack up the highest point scores FOR your team , and for your opponents, subtract costs the highest as a loss: [ higher than you gain, a double whammy. Remember, while you see it as a +45 point gain for sinking an enemy, HE sees it as -65 point loss for loosing an Ally..] In theory, a defeat on base points can be offset by points in ship losses, resulting in a Defeat becoming a draw..  

One should pay attention to the math.. in any game, it can be critical.

fumes2.jpg

Carriers1.jpg

 When you run in on the Enemy CV, 9 times out of 10 "I need support" will bring the enemy surface units right to you... get him to fight where YOU want to, not where HE can capture a spot..

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44 minutes ago, Edgecase said:
15 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

 

Yup. And a lot of the time, if you help your team push back the enemy, they get the CV anyway.

Only low-tier carriers can be caught, and only bad carriers are caught away from support.

I realize that describes a huge percentage of CV players, but it's not something to build a strategy around.

Plan B} IF his air groups are gunning on you, they aren't going after others who CAP right ? One way or the other,...it helps.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

 

Yup. And a lot of the time, if you help your team push back the enemy, they get the CV anyway.

..BUT ONLY after doing avoidable damage to your allies...love the way folks get hung out to dry...

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49 minutes ago, AllysaRockz said:

 

Well, if you have two destroyers and a Kongo gunning for a carrier in a game, that's fine, provided the carrier is American and below tier 5. The Japanese carriers aren't faster than you, but there's no way you're going to hunt them down at the start of a game, unless the entire enemy team heads off in one direction and the carrier isn't paying attention. What I'm more concerned about is that you'd be wasting the potential of those two destroyers. Especially if you're playing a match of Domination or Epicenter. Having not one, but two DDs on your team just completely ignoring the objectives and going deep into enemy territory to kill the carrier will throw 7 games out of 10 right from the get go. :Smile_sad:  I know how it feels when my DDs don't play the objective when I'm in my BB...

 

Without cap superiority, you'll lose the game on points before your team can even react... and that's because the only ships that are effective at capping early game decided to go rabbit hunting instead of playing the objective. Yeah, I get it, the points difference for sinking a Carrier is massive... but so is that of a battleship, and with the battleship you don't have to essentially throw away two DD's on an epic flank to get the points. :Smile_great:

Carriers really shouldn't be in an epicenter  scenario, either, caps aren't really their thing..and Yet I've seen it, as I'm sure everyone else has.

FACT: AC outrange guns , makes them a threat. Period. ERVEN if youy can't catch a T-5, you CAN make him run, and if he's running, he ain't gunning..not at your allies  anyway. Sometimes one must look beyond individual scores to the team effort.

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6 minutes ago, panzerdeal61 said:

Plan B} IF his air groups are gunning on you, they aren't going after others who CAP right ? One way or the other,...it helps.

Ah ha... but what if no one's capping because your only two DDs are suicide rushing the carrier?

Edited by warpath_33
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1 hour ago, panzerdeal61 said:

Capturing the bases can be accomplished by slower team units, while faster  elements  could and should be detailed to carrier hunts. Reasons: Protection and points: CV's also  rack up the highest point scores FOR your team , and for your opponents, subtract costs the highest as a loss: [ higher than you gain, a double whammy. Remember, while you see it as a +45 point gain for sinking an enemy, HE sees it as -65 point loss for loosing an Ally..] In theory, a defeat on base points can be offset by points in ship losses, resulting in a Defeat becoming a draw..

Is this a troll post? 

Hunting a carrier is a bad idea, because 

1. You give the enemies a huge cap advantage by taking ships out of the battle for more than a few minutes. You talk about the 45 point gain, but those points could be more easily earned by capturing bases.

2. The carrier can easily take these "Fast ships", which you defined as 2 destroyers and 1 fast battleship. Well, face it, but a CV can easily keep your two DDs spotted, and take them out if they're a decent CV player. So in the end, you're not going to kill him, you're going to be taken out without accomplishing anything.

3. A CV is not that slow, with the exceptions of the Bogue and Langley. They usually do 30 knots or faster, and even in a DD, you're not going to catch them when actively maneuvering to dodge their strikes. 

 

Not to mention that slower ships, like BBs and CAs, cannot cap as well as DDs.

Edited by Aduial

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No..covered by Kongo from our Division: What are the OTHER divisions, including our carrier doing ? It's called a task group. Ideally you would have 2-3 in the team. One fast ships, other two not so fast. Mind: a Clan can set this up easier, but it should be doable.

There's where the game could be improved a bit: seeing the map, THEN selecting your ship, would be a players bonus, instead of how it's currently done, but that's just an idea... myself I think they got that backwards.

Example: TF 38

TG 38.1            TG 38.2             TG 38.3                      TG 38.4

KONGO          Wisconsin            Nassau                          Independence [31 Knots]

DD                     CA                    CA                                 CL

DD                     CL                     CL                                 DD

CV hunt              CAP a           CAP c                          [AIR] CV hunt then support.      

 

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5 minutes ago, Aduial said:

Is this a troll post? 

Hunting a carrier is a bad idea, because 

1. You give the enemies a huge cap advantage by taking ships out of the battle for more than a few minutes. You talk about the 45 point gain, but those points could be more easily earned by capturing bases.

2. The carrier can easily take these "Fast ships", which you defined as 2 destroyers and 1 fast battleship. Well, face it, but a CV can easily keep your two DDs spotted, and take them out if they're a decent CV player. So in the end, you're not going to kill him, you're going to be taken out without accomplishing anything.

3. A CV is not that slow, with the exceptions of the Bogue and Langley. They usually do 30 knots or faster, and even in a DD, you're not going to catch them when actively maneuvering to dodge their strikes. 

 

Not to mention that slower ships, like BBs and CAs, cannot cap as well as DDs.

And every strike headed to you is 1 less headed to Division 2. Who can CAP.

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51 minutes ago, Znayut said:

Carrier hunting is a waste of effort. Even CV snipes are a big gamble.

If it gets caught out of position, sure, send him under. Otherwise, don't bother.

^^^ THIS

A waste of time and resources except for end game,  OP proposes taking 1/4 od team to chase a single ship which may or may not be important to the battle. 

My team lost a battle a few days ago because a stupid DD went off to sink both enemy CVs instead of capping and sinking effective enemies.  I had already shot down all of their planes and told him so! 

CV sniping doesn't gain much unless you can do it in one pass.  If it takes 2 round trips of your planes to take out the red CV, that's 2 BBs you could have crippled, 2 DDs you might have sunk...

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1 hour ago, Skpstr said:

Problem with that is, CV takes time to get to. If most of your team is going after it on a Domination map, and the other team is playing normally, in most cases, by the time you kill the CV, the points gained will be less than or equal to what you lost by not seriously contesting, and the enemy, having already a positional advantage, can send a few ships to kill your CV in turn. You're also not softening up enemy AA with module kills.

 

Add to that, that depending on tier, by the time you've spent all that effort killing the CV, his fighters might have basically shut down your CV anyway.

 

And yes, planes have long range, and good destructive potential, but that danger is balanced by their glacial reload, and possibility of being attritted en route.

This is exactly the problem, though it's a lot less of a problem at the lower tiers.  Why?  Smaller maps.  On smaller maps, carriers won't be soooo far behind the front lines, and you can tend to get to them relatively quickly.  Fight a tier 4 or 5 battle on a map like Big Race, or New Dawn, or Fault Line, and you'll find that it doesn't really take all that long to run down the  CV's.  That said, one of the biggest problems I see when it comes to running CVs to ground is how many players on the same team all go after the CV.  This can be a sure way to lose a battle, unless the CV isn't the only ship remaining or your team is trailing on points.  Both of my solo warriors were because all of the ships on the enemy team were chasing our team's CV while I, in my KamikazeR, would run for their base (in Standard Mode) and cap them out.  In both of those battles if even 2 of their ships hadn't chased our CV and just jumped on our base, they'd have won.  But noooo, everyone's got to chase the CV!

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