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nhf

Neptune is garbage after smoke detection nerf

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Rant on.  Having played the RN CA line for some time, it's obvious how badly the smoke detection nerf negatively impacted this entire line.  The Neptune most of all.  And, the last smoke duration buff has done little to change this.  I would have never gone down the line or spent the money to retrain captains just to get comparable garbage to the USN CA line.  Thanks for taking a steaming dump on the RN CA line WOW.  Rant off.

 

Stats as of this post:

 

All (Damage, XP)
    Minotaur     66,454    1,617    
    Neptune     50,721    1,414    
    Belfast        46,635    1,390
    Fiji              41,092    1,197    
    Edinburgh  40,206    1,280    


2 Weeks (Damage, XP)
    Minotaur    62,916    (-6%) 1,567    
    Belfast       49,449    (-3%) 1,438    
    Neptune    44,767    (-12%) 1,288    
    Fiji              37,886    (-8%) 1,119    
    Edinburgh  36,160    (-10%) 1,183

 

If any BB line suffered such a decline WOW players would go absolute bananas.  But, BBs are the most costly ships to play in the game so that will never happen.  Thus, the "quit whining and adjust" comments are sure to follow.

Edited by nhf
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Not from me they won't. I can understand how you feel; however to be honest I was never a fan of the "squat in your own cloud of smoke and lol-shoot anything in range." On the other hand, I do appreciate the game's need for variety and the giving of distinct flavours to particular lines of ships.

It's all evolving and as Jimi Hendrix liked to say "it's all happening right on time."

Edited by Stauffenberg44
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We were never meant to just sit in smoke and pewpew away. My personal feeling is the nerf only affects players who can't get it done unless they abuse that mechanic. In short, learn, adapt, overcome. More importantly, please cease whining about not being able to abuse the mechanic you were never meant to abuse.

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6 minutes ago, TheKrimzonDemon said:

We were never meant to just sit in smoke and pewpew away. My personal feeling is the nerf only affects players who can't get it done unless they abuse that mechanic. In short, learn, adapt, overcome. More importantly, please cease whining about not being able to abuse the mechanic you were never meant to abuse.

So why did WG give the RN cruisers such a pitifully small smoke cloud, then?

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8 hours ago, TheKrimzonDemon said:

We were never meant to just sit in smoke and pewpew away. My personal feeling is the nerf only affects players who can't get it done unless they abuse that mechanic. In short, learn, adapt, overcome. More importantly, please cease whining about not being able to abuse the mechanic you were never meant to abuse.

The issue is the Neptune has ZERO other tools to "adapt" with given the current game meta. 

  • Shells are garbage and 70-80% of them shatter or deflect on anything at range that 1) can't WASD and 2) you are lucky enough to hit given shell loft/float. 
  • AP cannot kill DDs you spot before the entire enemy focuses on and deletes you. 
  • Get in close, and Neptune has ZERO armor, AND the BBs at its tier and above have 20km+ range regardless, meaning you're in range of 2-3 BBs once spotted and cannot prevent broadside to all, which does not really matter anyway because the Neptune can be penned at any angle. 
  • Made worse because the Neptune has huge detection. 
  • Made even worse because Neptune is a big CA target.
  • Made worse even still because the Neptune turns horribly AND predictably, like a BB in many ways, so good BB players can hit it at pretty much any range consistently. 

It's not "abuse":

The ENTIRE LINE was built around the one "mechanic" WOW utterly nerfed. 

There's literally nothing the Nepture has to "adapt" with.  You get that, right?

Edited by nhf
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5 minutes ago, Thraxian said:
6 minutes ago, Thraxian said:

So why did WG give the RN cruisers such a pitifully small smoke cloud, then?

 

Exactly.  End of discussion.

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9 minutes ago, Thraxian said:

So why did WG give the RN cruisers such a pitifully small smoke cloud, then?

 

2 minutes ago, nhf said:

Exactly.  End of discussion.

It is not pitifully small anymore.

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Uhm... compare it to say oh, I dunno, a USN destroyer... it is pitifully small for a much larger ship. Funny thing about those RN cruisers tho'...

 

From my experience - the line is complete, I have a Mino - the line goes fragile about the Edinburgh or Ed as I call her. You so much as look at a red ship the wrong way and bam, you're out of it or close to it. Playing the French line helps with the two top ships in the R(U)N cruiser line... keep moving, got to keep moving on... it was fun while it was there... the complete hiding of your ship up until the minimum discovery range... and yup, downright LOL hilarious. The Mino alone, in her smoke, could stop nearly the entire red fleet, forcing them to change their course. Man she was fun to play. 

 

The smoke change had me trying her without smoke... now that it's changed... I'll go back to smoke. 

 

But if the stats say the numbers are down, they're down. It takes probably a ten to twenty percent solid drop in stats before the alarms go off... and it probably takes a few weeks at lower numbers before they start thinking about tweaking them.

 

A numb thought just hit me... for the purpose of balancing ships... could you attach an RNG "seed" value to each ship which might aid in your favor when red rounds are incoming... and when you're firing outbound... maybe that could comp the damage numbers up without having any mechanics changed? 

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35 minutes ago, nhf said:

Exactly.  End of discussion.

 

Things that were bullshlt get made less good... wow what a shocker.

 

How close to you frequently fight with Neptune? Detection range firing from smoke is 6.6km. That is the largest of any of the Brit CLs, but it's also point blank range basically...

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10 minutes ago, Captain_Dorja said:

 

Things that were bullshlt get made less good... wow what a shocker.

 

How close to you frequently fight with Neptune? Detection range firing from smoke is 6.6km. That is the largest of any of the Brit CLs, but it's also point blank range basically...

DDs unseen outside the Neptune's detection range before smoke, or a DD with low detection that spots the Neptune prior to smoke, just charges smoke until 6.6km.  There are DDs with >6km detection range.  It's not hard for a DD.  I've started just charging Neptune smoke until 6.6km (Hint: A DD with less than 6.6km detection need not even fire) and it works most of the time, easily.  And, if a Neptune spots me in a DD, so what, its AP can't kill me before my team deletes it.  You can make excuses, but the stats don't lie: The smoke detection nerf totally crapped on the RN CA line.

Edited by nhf
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5 minutes ago, nhf said:

DDs unseen outside the Neptune's detection range before smoke, or a DD with low detection that spots the Neptune prior to smoke, just charges smoke until 6.6km.  There are DDs with >6km detection range.  It's not hard for a DD.  I've started just charging Neptune smoke until 6.6km (Hint: A DD with less than 6.6km detection need not even fire) and it works most of the time, easily.  And, if a Neptune spots me in a DD, so what, its AP can't kill me before my team deletes it.  You can make excuses, but the stats don't lie: The smoke detection nerf totally crapped on the RN CA line.

 

If you get spotted in your smoke, you were about to be killed anyways. 

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10 minutes ago, SergeantHop said:

 

If you get spotted in your smoke, you were about to be killed anyways. 

No because DDs would not charge/approach RN CA smoke at the smoke detection range BEFORE the smoke detection nerf.  It's 6.6km now, which is FAR MORE than it was before.  And, the line still has radar AND torp spam walls fired at smoke to deal with.  Take away smoke, and the Neptune has ZERO other tools.  The Neptune's greatest asset was a one trick pony... and WOW took away the pony.  The decline in stats prove my point.

Edited by nhf

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26 minutes ago, nhf said:

No because DDs would not charge/approach RN CA smoke at the smoke detection range BEFORE the smoke detection nerf.  It's 6.6km now, which is FAR MORE than it was before.  And, the line still has radar AND torp spam walls fired at smoke to deal with.  Take away smoke, and the Neptune has ZERO other tools.  The Neptune's greatest asset was a one trick pony... and WOW took away the pony.  The decline in stats prove my point.

 

You're missing the point entirely. My point was if there was a ship inside 6km before, even if you weren't spotted, you were about to be in a world of hurt. Either a wall of torps is rapidly approaching or you're going to eat a broadside at point blank range when your smoke is up. Neptune is not at all a one trick pony. Massive heal and great concealment mean it can have some great staying power if you play smart. You just have to do that now, play smart.

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6 hours ago, SergeantHop said:

 

You're missing the point entirely. My point was if there was a ship inside 6km before, even if you weren't spotted, you were about to be in a world of hurt. Either a wall of torps is rapidly approaching or you're going to eat a broadside at point blank range when your smoke is up. Neptune is not at all a one trick pony. Massive heal and great concealment mean it can have some great staying power if you play smart. You just have to do that now, play smart.

DDs move WITHIN 6.6km AFTER smoke, or a DD with detection less than 6.6km was near BEFORE smoke.  Got it?

 

The huge decline in stats simply does not support your point.

Edited by nhf

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3 minutes ago, nhf said:

DDs move WITHIN 6.6km AFTER smoke, or a DD with detection less than 6.6km was near BEFORE smoke.  Got it?

 

The huge decline in stats simple does not support your point.

 

Mkay, buddy. 

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I heard Neptune get a stupid 6.x km detection after firing in smoke, which is a bit weird, considering Mino has her concealment after firing from smoke around 5km. Other than that, Neptune seems fine.

 

Also RN CL has always been a line that heavily rely on positioning and angling, even in smoke. Its becoming a bit harder to play now since people are now trying to shoot in smoke. (thing that was rare before). I tried some game in my Fiji recently and I didn't really felt a change. Well one difference actually, now i know if a DD is sneaking around my smoke and it's a free kill. I mean I just have to go out, pop my hydro for torps and that's it.

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I spent a fair amount of time slogging up the line, and about the time I got the Eddy the smoke changes hit (I got her a couple of weeks before the changes, I think). As a result, I run the Edinburgh with radar. Sometimes it works, sometimes not so much. I still have a better than 50% win rate with it. But the Neptune is a different story. I can't figure out how to win consistently with it. Half of my games are good, and some of my best games are in the Neptune now, but the other half are insta-deletes that really aren't much fun to play. I just got the Mino...I mean, I've spent so much time and energy on this line that I might as well finish it. 

 

But honestly, I don't mind the nerf in principal. It should, in theory, make the game better and take us a tiny bit closer to reality.  But they build this line around smoke, so they should have given some kind of a buff to balance the nerf. Very, very few of us can play these ships like Euro, so for most of us it's a pretty harsh move.

 

And WG, read this carefully - I'm one of the guys that likes the game enough to spend actual cold, hard cash here. My desire to continue spending money has been greatly diminished by the flat-lining of the RN CL line. 

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3 hours ago, Grflrgl said:

... But the Neptune is a different story. I can't figure out how to win consistently with it.  Half of my games are good, and some of my best games are in the Neptune now, but the other half are insta-deletes that really aren't much fun to play...

Success in the Neptune most games now depends primarily on this: Is there a DD on your side/part of the map?  In other words, chance.  Meaning, nothing to "figure out" in your game play, instead a lowering of your expectations after a massive nerf.  There are of course those who will tell the thousands of RN CA players who played the more than 150,000 games those 2 week stats above represent that "you need to just play smarter".  Which is bogus because the RN CA tree line after the smoke detection nerf simply lacks the tools to play smarter with.  And, the stats prove it, validated additionally by the fact that the Belfast was least impacted because it has smoke WITH 1) HE and 2) Radar, which both keep DDs from approaching smoke.  I don't mind a challenge, but you gotta give me something to work with.

Edited by nhf

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The Neptune would be fine if they put the smoke detection range back at what the Edin or Mino is: about 5.2km or so.

I've adapted quite well in my Edinburgh to the smoke change, but the Neptune's much larger size means that it's 6.6km range really is far too high.

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1 hour ago, EAnybody said:

The Neptune would be fine if they put the smoke detection range back at what the Edin or Mino is: about 5.2km or so.

I've adapted quite well in my Edinburgh to the smoke change, but the Neptune's much larger size means that it's 6.6km range really is far too high.

 

The totally broken mechanic after the smoke nerf for the Neptune is that smoke detection is now literally more than the spotting distance of DDs.  So, another solution is to extend hyrdo to smoke detection range for enemy ships (not torps) only when in smoke (not outside smoke).  DDs will not charge smoke once spotted at 6.6km, or whatever the detection range of the RN CA in smoke.

Edited by nhf

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I think Neptune has taken a mighty hit, I've sunk them 4 times since the change by exploiting it. If it has 10km stealth, wants to smoke anywhere even semi aggressive then it's child's play to motor up to 6.6km (still 0.8km inside your own stealth, well outside his hydro) in a destroyer spot and kill. You can cross that distance in cruisers quick too. The difference between 2km proxy spot and 6.6km is immense. If there was a BB in the 6.6-2km range before you were going to put a world of hurt on him, even if he might get within 2km to spot you - now, curtains.

WG pay lip-service to wanting aggression, then do this?

 

The RN CL, especially at T9-T10 have awful shell arcs at a tier with Zao, Moskva etc. That, combined with the need to maneuver like your tail's on fire as the armor is so lacking, plus the requirement to hit only portions of red ships with the AP only makes open water combat suicidal.

I didn't want RN CL to have smoke as the main way of doing damage, although it is - being able to sit at closer range than you'd otherwise survive at, and being able to focus wholly on aiming is the only way these ships do significant damage (a few radar equipped DD hunting fanatics aside). WG should not have gone down this route in the first place, but they have and aside from rebalancing RN CL to have smaller citadels, worthwhile extremity armor and maybe even HE they shouldn't hammer on smoke too hard.

15 hours ago, AlcatrazNC said:

I heard Neptune get a stupid 6.x km detection after firing in smoke, which is a bit weird, considering Mino has her concealment after firing from smoke around 5km. Other than that, Neptune seems fine.

It's based in part on stock concealment, where Neptune's pretty bad at 13.4km. Minotaur's stock value is 11.5km hence the difference scales.

Neptune's concealment isn't particularly good for T9 (by RN CL standards it's especially bad) - Baltimore and Ibuki get 12.6. The others are worse than Neptune - but Roon, S-Louis, Donskoi all have the shell arcs and chops to engage effectively at >15km.

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3 hours ago, mofton said:

...combined with the need to maneuver like your tail's on fire...

I can't speak for the others, but my tail usually is on fire...

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Agreed. I don't play much on the neptune lately, it has been an exercise in frustration. I love that ship.

There's a constant "this ship was fun, but they "nerfed" it." Too much of that and people will leave the game.

I respect balance but sometimes the "statisticians" forget, some of these ships need to be fun to play otherwise why bother?

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Just got the Nep and I have to say its a huge step back from the Eddy, the Nep just gets shredded every time a BB looks at it and the shells shatter most of the time.

Its such an easy kill that once spotted, most ships will forgo shooting at other targets just to try and get the quick kill on the Nep.

One match, 23 hits for a paltry 2k damage and then I get nuked by an Iowa from 20km away who puts 3 shells through my bow for 3 citadels....one.....two.....three and dead, I only survived the second one because I hit the heal right after the first hit. Ive only played a handful of games but the number of times I get instantly killed without a detonation is alarming.

I know the tier 9 cruisers are not in a good place but Im thinking Im gonna hang up the Neptune for a while until the 4-6 Missouri's per game slows down.

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I have to say I found the Neptune seriously inferior to Minotaur before  the smoke nerf; I imagine its pathetic now.

That said - Shift gears and run Radar. Kill the DDs that get to abuse the still-broken smoke. (The smoke nerf was another buff for DDs and another middle finger from WG to BBs and cruiser drivers alike.)

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