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FeyPrince

AP vs HE bombs

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So after some damage testing, here is my feedback on the AP bombs vs the HE bombs on Lexington. Essex, and Midway, versus just using the normal HE ones we have on live

.

When using HE bombs on ships you get around 500-2000 damage normally against any decent sized targets, you are only limited by how many hit. normally about 4 hits (out of 7) for 12k damage, being really random based on the RNG of the drop

BBs ~15 k of 4-5 hits

Cruisers ~10k off of 3-4 hits

DDs ~600k off of 2 hits

 

when using AP bombs you get different damage based on your targets.

Most BBs and CAs ~11k off of 7 hits

DDs and british CLs ~500 off of ~4/5 hits   (could do more testing on British CLs)

Some specific BBs (Bismark/Tirpitz) and some CAs (Noticed it on Des Moines and Henri) 20-40 k damage. (7 hits still)

(All of the above assumes you get a manual drop right on target at the correct angle)

Now the main concern is while the AP bombs were alright on Enterprise, using the same bombs on Essex and Midway is a bit.... underwhelming. Again it has the same problem of your bombs only being good at hitting very specific targets, but largely as I player I run into another issue when comparing the two.  Why would I use the 1000lb AP bomb over the 1000lb HE bomb? the AP bombs have a much tougher to use targeting reticle (although much better when you get a good drop at connecting), and on average they do about the same damage + Fire, as opposed to just doing AP damage.

 

On Enterprise there is a significant choice 500lb HE vs 1000lb AP, in their current state Lexington/Essex/Midway all have a choice between 1000lb of either, and the 1000lb HE has higher max damage so even on just pens it does more. The AP bombs overpen often lowering damage OR they Citadel very specific targets for spikes in damage.

my suggestions to make a more valid choice between the two to try out:

-Use a bigger bomb so even though there is inconsistency in targets it can get a higher damage output (USN had a rarely used 1600lb Bomb)

-Fix the AP bomb fuses/damage so they hit different ships more consistently for better damage, if my HE is dealing ~10k damage a drop + fire, the AP bombs should be doing about 20k versus ALL BBs (not just bismark) and probably about 15k against heavy cruisers, and always overpen everything on DDs. Just at least so the AP is dealing more alpha on average than the HE against the target types AP is supposed to go after

 

[Note all this is in raw tests without Def AA active and AA knocking out planes of which HE is probably more vulnerable too, though all my test games when you lose a couple AP bomb planes you do almost no damage where a single HE bomb hitting and causing fire would have been much more in favor than 2 AP overpens for 1600 damage]

 

In conclusion Enterprise has a Serious choice between its two bomb types 500lb HE and 1000lb AP, the choice between 1000lb HE and AP bombs, is largely in the favor of the HE bombs and really comes down to do you want to delete a couple cruisers and Bismark, or do you want fire almost always? the fact that the 1000lb HE bomb has serious bite to it makes the 1000lb AP bomb seem inferior in comparison even when it comes to raw alpha damage..    (namely if I bomb a BB with HE and get 5 hits its ~17k damage, if I bomb with AP its only ~12k with all bombs hitting, so its not even competitive)

 

Thanks for listening if you read my analysis.

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As a receiving end of this abomination.

Was struck by GZ 3xDB squad : 4xAP bombs 26k damage, probably valid numbers, but:

Atago with extended AA range was focusing DFAA on sequentially all squadrons and yet they dropped just fine ... I think DF effect was ignored 

What is the point of DF if CV still strike to full extent? Same tier CA with active DF definitely should be able to deflect CV strike. No? 

 

p.s. yes, Atago AA is terrible - it's about DFAA ability, not the particular ship

Edited by SlartiBartFastE2

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Even on the Enterprise, there really is no choice. You take HE bombs because they're more versatile and start fires. Sure, you don't delete Fusos or Germans, but you have a bomb you can actually use against any target! 

 

The only ship with AP bombs that are useful against most things is the GZ in testing now. The shorter fuse/lower armor threshold means you can citadel most cruisers (which, IMO, is broken). 

 

The AP/HE bomb implementation is wrong too. You should be able to switch between the two in battle like you can switch between AP and HE or narrow and wide spread torps. The balancing factor is that you still have to fly the planes back and wait on a rearm. 

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22 minutes ago, Show_Me_Your_Cits said:

Even on the Enterprise, there really is no choice. You take HE bombs because they're more versatile and start fires. Sure, you don't delete Fusos or Germans, but you have a bomb you can actually use against any target! 

 

The only ship with AP bombs that are useful against most things is the GZ in testing now. The shorter fuse/lower armor threshold means you can citadel most cruisers (which, IMO, is broken). 

 

The AP/HE bomb implementation is wrong too. You should be able to switch between the two in battle like you can switch between AP and HE or narrow and wide spread torps. The balancing factor is that you still have to fly the planes back and wait on a rearm. 

I believe that AP bombs need to be normalized a lot. Lower the max damage on the German BBs and raise it on heavy cruisers and other BBs, just not so it's a massive death strike. But instead does like 30-40K dmg on German BBs vs the normal 112K max dmg and like 20-30K dmg to something like a Montana, so some nation's have a bit more of a defence value vs others and heavy cruisers would take something like 10-20K average, light cruisers would be like 5-10K and DDs would be the normal over pens. Weakening the squadrons before they drop would make a larger difference to your survival chance.

 

I also agree that we should have an option to rearm between HE and AP bombs mid battle, and choose which squadrons have which. Using Midway as an example, I should be able to have one squadron using HE and the other using AP at the same time, and they rearm to their previous ordinance until told otherwise.

 

Numbers are up for debate.

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1 hour ago, SlartiBartFastE2 said:

 

Atago with extended AA range was focusing DFAA on sequentially all squadrons and yet they dropped just fine ... I think DF effect was ignored 

 

 

I was playing with a friend the other day.  He was in a Pensacola, I was sick of the tier 7s I have, so I decided to play the Molotov as, even if we did get a tier 9 battle, it would still be competitive.  Well, we did get tier 9 and I was insta-deleted by their Taiho before the first enemy was even lit.  I get that a tier 6 with poor AA shouldn't be able to do much against a tier 9 CV, but I was within 1-2km of the Pensacola and a Tirpitz and the Pens and I both used our DF consumable and manually selected a squadron.  The Taiho's planes weren't even affected.  Not a single plane was lost and it still dropped a tight spread.

 

I suck at CVs, so I only play them in CO-OP, but I have noticed that it appears really random as to whether or not AA will affect your drops (DF or not).  I often see a BB by itself and attack with three dive bomber squadrons at spaced out intervals to wait for the damage control party to go on cool down.  All squadrons have all planes and all other variables appear to be the same.  Yet some of my drops are hurried and some aren't.  I've even dropped on clusters of multiple ships which included AA cruisers and not had the drop affected.  I think it has been kind of glitchy for a while.

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At this point I don't see any reason to use the AP bombs option. 

(Not that I'll play any USN CVs if the removal of the AS loadout option goes through to live.)

 

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2 hours ago, AspiringCodger said:

 

I was playing with a friend the other day.  He was in a Pensacola, I was sick of the tier 7s I have, so I decided to play the Molotov as, even if we did get a tier 9 battle, it would still be competitive.  Well, we did get tier 9 and I was insta-deleted by their Taiho before the first enemy was even lit.  I get that a tier 6 with poor AA shouldn't be able to do much against a tier 9 CV, but I was within 1-2km of the Pensacola and a Tirpitz and the Pens and I both used our DF consumable and manually selected a squadron.  The Taiho's planes weren't even affected.  Not a single plane was lost and it still dropped a tight spread.

 

I suck at CVs, so I only play them in CO-OP, but I have noticed that it appears really random as to whether or not AA will affect your drops (DF or not).  I often see a BB by itself and attack with three dive bomber squadrons at spaced out intervals to wait for the damage control party to go on cool down.  All squadrons have all planes and all other variables appear to be the same.  Yet some of my drops are hurried and some aren't.  I've even dropped on clusters of multiple ships which included AA cruisers and not had the drop affected.  I think it has been kind of glitchy for a while.

You mentioned this was co-op use of your CV, first thing I'll day here is the bot CAs don't always trigger DF and I'm not sure what the criteria is for them to activate it. Second, you as a tier 6 CA vs a tier 9 CV, even with DF, a Taiho can drop enough fish in the water to kill you, the issue there was your AA was not sufficient enough to cull the incoming DMG, and Pensacola AA is not that good, and I could see the tirpitz running a secondary build. While your DF was enough to cause a panic spread your base AA was insufficient enough to stop enough of the strike to destroy you.

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1 minute ago, Onii_Chan_Ryuu said:

You mentioned this was co-op use of your CV, first thing I'll day here is the bot CAs don't always trigger DF and I'm not sure what the criteria is for them to activate it. Second, you as a tier 6 CA vs a tier 9 CV, even with DF, a Taiho can drop enough fish in the water to kill you, the issue there was your AA was not sufficient enough to cull the incoming DMG, and Pensacola AA is not that good, and I could see the tirpitz running a secondary build. While your DF was enough to cause a panic spread your base AA was insufficient enough to stop enough of the strike to destroy you.

 

I used the BB example specifically due to the fact they don't have DF.  With no DF and all other things the same, some drops have the panic spread, some don't.

 

You don't seem to have read what I said.  I know that my tier 6 cruiser's AA wasn't sufficient.  I get that it shouldn't be.  Also, my DF wasn't enough to cause a panic spread.  My issue was that there were three ships all at close range all firing at the torp bombers, two of them used DF and manually selected a target and it still had zero effect on them.  No planes were lost and there was no panic spread.

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5 hours ago, AspiringCodger said:

 

I used the BB example specifically due to the fact they don't have DF.  With no DF and all other things the same, some drops have the panic spread, some don't.

 

You don't seem to have read what I said.  I know that my tier 6 cruiser's AA wasn't sufficient.  I get that it shouldn't be.  Also, my DF wasn't enough to cause a panic spread.  My issue was that there were three ships all at close range all firing at the torp bombers, two of them used DF and manually selected a target and it still had zero effect on them.  No planes were lost and there was no panic spread.

well, I was on my phone, and typing on it can be difficult, so I tend to omit words and explanations. as for your experience with the DF not causing a panic spread, can you share a replay? as I have NEVER seen that, so I will continue on to speculation for now, causing the panic spread of a well placed torpedo drop, could... lead to two slightly offset and angled drops to make one more closer together spread, that is just wider, while not impossible to dodge, it is harder, I tend to do this if I already committed to a torpedo drop.. or possibly you both focused the same squadron, and the other one, was not suffering from the panic effect, and got a clean drop in. causing you to take the 4 torpedoes it would require to kill you. from full HP, or maybe they already got locked into the attack, where it could not be aborted, I believe DF does not effect them if its activated too late.. again, without a replay, its all speculation.

 

as for your issue with some attacks happening quickly and others having to make a complete circle, that's just the existing messed up CV system in place, its been buggy like that for ages, I sometimes order my planes to abandon an attack run, and they just barely hit the circle and insta drop, without flying over my target location, but, the bombs drop there... and other times, I make a last second drop change and the planes have to make a full circle to go back in for their drop, usually causing half my squadron to die, or miss my target.

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On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 7:08 AM, SlartiBartFastE2 said:

As a receiving end of this abomination.

Was struck by GZ 3xDB squad : 4xAP bombs 26k damage, probably valid numbers, but:

Atago with extended AA range was focusing DFAA on sequentially all squadrons and yet they dropped just fine ... I think DF effect was ignored 

What is the point of DF if CV still strike to full extent? Same tier CA with active DF definitely should be able to deflect CV strike. No? 

 

p.s. yes, Atago AA is terrible - it's about DFAA ability, not the particular ship

No. It's about DFAA and AA ability. Otherwise the AA number wouldn't matter. DFAA gives some scatter affect AND it boosts the native AA. Bombers will make it through the scatter aura and still make drops even in the best of times. If the AP DBs that Lexington+ gets are similar to the ones Enterprise had, DFAA alone doesn't scatter them that much. 

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On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 6:33 PM, Onii_Chan_Ryuu said:

well, I was on my phone, and typing on it can be difficult, so I tend to omit words and explanations. as for your experience with the DF not causing a panic spread, can you share a replay? as I have NEVER seen that, so I will continue on to speculation for now, causing the panic spread of a well placed torpedo drop, could... lead to two slightly offset and angled drops to make one more closer together spread, that is just wider, while not impossible to dodge, it is harder, I tend to do this if I already committed to a torpedo drop.. or possibly you both focused the same squadron, and the other one, was not suffering from the panic effect, and got a clean drop in. causing you to take the 4 torpedoes it would require to kill you. from full HP, or maybe they already got locked into the attack, where it could not be aborted, I believe DF does not effect them if its activated too late.. again, without a replay, its all speculation.

 

as for your issue with some attacks happening quickly and others having to make a complete circle, that's just the existing messed up CV system in place, its been buggy like that for ages, I sometimes order my planes to abandon an attack run, and they just barely hit the circle and insta drop, without flying over my target location, but, the bombs drop there... and other times, I make a last second drop change and the planes have to make a full circle to go back in for their drop, usually causing half my squadron to die, or miss my target.

Also, hits will happen even with the scatter. It does not guarantee that attacks miss. 

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12 hours ago, Tzarevitch said:

No. It's about DFAA and AA ability. Otherwise the AA number wouldn't matter. DFAA gives some scatter affect AND it boosts the native AA. Bombers will make it through the scatter aura and still make drops even in the best of times. If the AP DBs that Lexington+ gets are similar to the ones Enterprise had, DFAA alone doesn't scatter them that much. 

Let me put it simple. DFAA panic targeted squadron. Targeted squadron drop in big area. There is NO level of panic - squadron either panicked or not. I did not ask to shot down the planes (this is why not and AA) - but I found that DFAA did not work as intended and I call this WG-fail.

Edited by SlartiBartFastE2

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