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Ducky_shot

The case against the Giulio Cesare

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So I have looked at the numbers and did some crunching. I have a hard time seeing this ship being sold too much in the future. I expect it to be removed from sale, but not likely right away. Let's face it, while it is OP, it's not Nikolai. This is going to be a TL/DR type post with a lot of numbers, but I thought some of you would find it interesting.

 

Lets see how it looks, shall we?

At First glance, it's win rate doesn't seem to be that much higher than the ARP Kongo immediately below it. But that is a full 2 percentage points, considering the Kongo is only 3.26% higher than 50%, that is significant (Bonus, There is nothing different about the 4 ARP ships, yet Kongo has a significantly higher WR compared to Hiei, figure that one out...) Not shown is the NY bringing up the rear at a paltry 47.78%

All Time, all Battles:

Spoiler

Screenshot001.thumb.jpg.e047a5732b1abc2fdb2911e38c8f8f53.jpg

Let's look at them a little deeper, shall we? The damage, XP, and K/D ratio are significantly higher when looking at the ships for all battles played. However if we take out a lot of data from the others that is old and from different metas, etc and go with the 2 week data, those only get higher versus the other t5 battleships.

Last 2 weeks, all battles

Spoiler

Screenshot002.thumb.jpg.fb5ce099b81f15700f956fff3590638c.jpg

Well, perhaps the ship is insanely OP when divisioned and meh when solo? When we take those layers off and compare the ships, you can see that there is very little drop off for the GC solo versus divisions:

Last 2 weeks, solo battles only:

Spoiler

Screenshot003.thumb.jpg.b2feadc247e26af4044e3e58c3088fe8.jpg

Well, is this significant enough to warrant its removal from sale in the game? That's what I wondered. So here is where the number crunching starts. How much better is the GC than its peers?

In all battles played amongst its t5 BB peers

3.84% higher than the average win rate (not weighted)

37% more damage than average

31% more xp than average (although xp is a poor factor from WoWs api due to various reasons)

and an astounding 52% higher K/D ratio than average.

 

Let's move it all the way to our last WT comparison: the last 2 weeks performance in solo play only.

Here it has 5.17% percent higher w/r than average

45% more damage than average

38% more xp than average

and 80%!!!!! higher K/D ratioi than average.

 

But is this enough to be considered OP?? What do the other 2 BB's that have been removed from sale look like in the exact same comparisons?

The Nikolai, arguably the most OP ship in the game since 0.6.3 brought about the removal of OWSF from the game and toppling Gremyaschy from that spot, checks in with these figures:

All Time, higher than average amongst its peers:

WR: 8.21%, Damage: 37%, XP: 30%, K/D: 79%

Last 2 weeks Solo, higher than the average amongst its peers

WR: 5.55%, Damage: 33%, XP: 26%, K/D: 54%

 

The Kong Albert, which was the most recent shiip to be removed from sale in the game, checks in with these numbers:

All Time, higher than average amongst its peers:

WR: 5.20%, Damage: 34%, XP: 34%, K/D: 50%

Last 2 weeks Solo, higher than the average amongst its peers

WR: 4.61%, Damage: 28%, XP: 28%, K/D: 41%

 

So when we compare all these 3 ships together this is how they are performing in their tiers.

All time higher than peer average:

Nikolai:

WR: 8.21%, Damage: 37%, XP: 30%, K/D: 79%

Konig Albert:

WR: 5.20%, Damage: 34%, XP: 34%, K/D: 50%

Giulio Cesare:

WR: 3.84%, Damage: 37%, XP: 31%, K/D: 52%

2 weeks, solo play, higher than peer average:

Nikolai:

WR: 5.55%, Damage: 33%, XP: 26%, K/D: 54%

Konig Albert:

WR: 4.61%, Damage: 28%, XP: 28%, K/D: 41%

Giulio Cesare:

WR: 5.17%, Damage: 45%, XP: 38%, K/D: 80%

 

Now, you can be the judge on whether or not this ship is OP. It is right up at the same levels as the KA and Nikolai and consider that it does not get the protected MM that the other 2 receive in their lower tiers and I think you will agree that this is one OP ship! My advice to you? If you have thought about buying this ship, BUY IT IF IT GOES ON SALE AGAIN!!

 

And if you are one of the ones that says the Conqueror is OP, prove it! No chance you will be able to do it...

Edited by Ducky_shot
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6 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Your images are broken.

They work fine for me.

Also, I have been considering writing a similar thread as this, but OP makes a far better case than I would've.

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A bit off topic but I expect the ARP Kongo to be the highest performing “tech tree” ship (it is a clone after all). It was first offered as part of a fairly difficult mission at the beginning of the ARP collaboration and only the top players at the time got her. I remember it used to be a bit intimidating to go up against one! The effect was even more with myoko.

 

Granted they eventually gave one to pretty much everyone in the ARP finale but those stats started out with the top players. And those who still play them are probably very good in them still simply because of experience at this point. 

 

All this in my opinion lends support to the idea that Cesare is a bit ahead of the rest. I don’t really feel like playing Tier V any more thanks to the terrible MM (fix it pls, WG), but I have zero qualms about taking Cesare into bottom tier matches so that ship does something right!

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Interesting. Forza Italia ;)
Today was the first time I've actually been able to play her since she first came out (I bought the ship the very day it came out). I was quite pleased.

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21 minutes ago, Lert said:

They work fine for me.

Also, I have been considering writing a similar thread as this, but OP makes a far better case than I would've.

 

Still not seeing anything, even with a restart of the browser.

 

As for the ship itself, it's amusing in how it succeeds because it's not by the traditional things people measure Battleship power with.  Speed, Stealth is what sets Caesar apart.  Because in terms of guns, armor, which are the traditional measuring sticks of a BB that people really care about, are actually mediocre with the ship.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Still not seeing anything, even with a restart of the browser.

Here, I've put them on imgur for you.

P5scfxH.jpg

 

 

wP8sJHZ.jpg

 

LWG1ntM.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Lert said:

Here, I've put them on imgur for you.

Spoiler


P5scfxH.jpg

 

 

wP8sJHZ.jpg

 

LWG1ntM.jpg


 

 

 

Okay, thx, looking over.

 

Edit:  The 2nd and 3rd shots are the ones that are of interest to me.  Matter of fact, on Wednesday I put up Tier V BB Solo Stats in LWM's Cesare Review thread, here.  Caesar is putting in average numbers suitable for a Tier VIII Battleship... Yet these are piddly guns, smaller than the standard of 356mm in her tier range, as well as having flimsy armor.  It's a BB that breaks the norms of what it means for a BB to succeed.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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I can't see images either.

 

I do disagree, I think that GC is going to have one of the strongest selection pressures for her playerbase of almost any ship. She's rare, for a line with only premiums, not super well heard of as ships like Texas would be on the US server.

People buying her are likely to be very into the game, or history nuts (who in the US are likely not that numerous for a ship like GC) - unlike say Texas which has been given away a lot and is certainly in demand by a bunch of young, inexperienced 'murica f-yes!' players GC is likely more niche.

I think GC is 'good' but just being good at T5 - a bastion of awful ships - makes her desirable, because she's desirable more experienced players take her out more. My average tier is 7, I have >5,000 games and I have about 500 T10 battles - which is more games than a lot of T5 players will have in total. I just started the Kongo recently not really having had any interest in playing IJN battleships for a long time. Unsurprisingly I find it pretty easy, especially when top tier - I have an even higher WR in the Kongo than GC over a small sample size. I also do better in the Okto Rev (again a recent ship for me) and Iron Duke (ditto). My GC has fired a decent amount of HE which will result in higher damage, but repairable fire damage.

In contrast Okto Rev is very good - but I'll probably never play it again having done the missions for crates.

 

GC has weaknesses, that belt takes hits like nothing I've played at that tier, When a Kaiser is multi-citing you from long range you're in trouble. The vulnerability to torpedoes is big. However, an experienced player such as myself can mitigate those weaknesses readily - it's very clear to me in GC when I'm playing someone who knows what they're doing, and at that point it feels not particularly good at all. A good Ok Rev for instance? Problem. Someone who waits for broadside, angles himself well - big problem.

In addition as a fast and flexible ship it's easier for an experienced player to exploit. Speed raises the skill ceiling by allowing you to use the number one 'easy to learn, difficult to master' in-game skill - positioning.

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5 minutes ago, mofton said:

I can't see images either.

 

I do disagree, I think that GC is going to have one of the strongest selection pressures for her playerbase of almost any ship. She's rare, for a line with only premiums, not super well heard of as ships like Texas would be on the US server.

People buying her are likely to be very into the game, or history nuts (who in the US are likely not that numerous for a ship like GC) - unlike say Texas which has been given away a lot and is certainly in demand by a bunch of young, inexperienced 'murica f-yes!' players GC is likely more niche.

I think GC is 'good' but just being good at T5 - a bastion of awful ships - makes her desirable, because she's desirable more experienced players take her out more. My average tier is 7, I have >5,000 games and I have about 500 T10 battles - which is more games than a lot of T5 players will have in total. I just started the Kongo recently not really having had any interest in playing IJN battleships for a long time. Unsurprisingly I find it pretty easy, especially when top tier - I have an even higher WR in the Kongo than GC over a small sample size. I also do better in the Okto Rev (again a recent ship for me) and Iron Duke (ditto). My GC has fired a decent amount of HE which will result in higher damage, but repairable fire damage.

In contrast Okto Rev is very good - but I'll probably never play it again having done the missions for crates.

 

GC has weaknesses, that belt takes hits like nothing I've played at that tier, When a Kaiser is multi-citing you from long range you're in trouble. The vulnerability to torpedoes is big. However, an experienced player such as myself can mitigate those weaknesses readily - it's very clear to me in GC when I'm playing someone who knows what they're doing, and at that point it feels not particularly good at all. A good Ok Rev for instance? Problem. Someone who waits for broadside, angles himself well - big problem.

In addition as a fast and flexible ship it's easier for an experienced player to exploit. Speed raises the skill ceiling by allowing you to use the number one 'easy to learn, difficult to master' in-game skill - positioning.

 

Precisely.  The ship is unforgiving if you don't use her right.  But those aspects that people consider as secondary for a BB, speed and stealth, if you know how to milk it, the ship sings.  Because power and armor are actually rather weak.

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30 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

 

Still not seeing anything, even with a restart of the browser.

 

As for the ship itself, it's amusing in how it succeeds because it's not by the traditional things people measure Battleship power with.  Speed, Stealth is what sets Caesar apart.  Because in terms of guns, armor, which are the traditional measuring sticks of a BB that people really care about, are actually mediocre with the ship.

One thing about Cesare that might be a significant factor in her performance is her gun placement. Her tight clusters are something of an intangible since they don't contribute to her stats on-paper, but offer an advantage compared to ships that have their guns spread out along the length of the ship.

 

Cesare does have great stats, I can't debate that. But do you fear this ship? Does it command your attention like Albert, Kutuzov, or Belfast? I've had no trouble dealing with Cesare, in fact, I find October Revolution to be a bigger deal. I could be in the minority with that, but still. Cesare is inarguably a good ship, but I have trouble putting it alongside ships like Kamikaze and Nikolai.

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2 hours ago, Ducky_shot said:

The Kong Albert, which was the most recent ship to be removed from sale in the game...

It might be slightly off topic, but rumors of Konig Albert's demise are greatly exaggerated (paraphrasing here).

It went back on sale on EU only a week or two after it's "ban".

https://eu.wargaming.net/shop/wows/vehicles/7109/

I only contribute this because it seems many are unaware.

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1 hour ago, SkaerKrow said:

One thing about Cesare that might be a significant factor in her performance is her gun placement. Her tight clusters are something of an intangible since they don't contribute to her stats on-paper, but offer an advantage compared to ships that have their guns spread out along the length of the ship.

 

Cesare does have great stats, I can't debate that. But do you fear this ship? Does it command your attention like Albert, Kutuzov, or Belfast? I've had no trouble dealing with Cesare, in fact, I find October Revolution to be a bigger deal. I could be in the minority with that, but still. Cesare is inarguably a good ship, but I have trouble putting it alongside ships like Kamikaze and Nikolai.

Kinda this. I'm not really in awe of it going up against her. She doesn't seem to swing as hard, subjectively speaking from the receiving end. Not that I can just blatantly show her my broadside without penalty, just I'm not overly worried about her shells running me through.

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21 minutes ago, ZoomieG said:

It might be slightly off topic, but rumors of Konig Albert's demise are greatly exaggerated (paraphrasing here).

It went back on sale on EU only a week or two after it's "ban".

https://eu.wargaming.net/shop/wows/vehicles/7109/

I only contribute this because it seems many are unaware.

I think each server decides what its selling or not. I know Russia banned Kamikaze right before NA put it on sale last December.

1 hour ago, SkaerKrow said:

One thing about Cesare that might be a significant factor in her performance is her gun placement. Her tight clusters are something of an intangible since they don't contribute to her stats on-paper, but offer an advantage compared to ships that have their guns spread out along the length of the ship.

 

Cesare does have great stats, I can't debate that. But do you fear this ship? Does it command your attention like Albert, Kutuzov, or Belfast? I've had no trouble dealing with Cesare, in fact, I find October Revolution to be a bigger deal. I could be in the minority with that, but still. Cesare is inarguably a good ship, but I have trouble putting it alongside ships like Kamikaze and Nikolai.

The Konig Albert never really struck me as OP either and I was surprised when they pulled it. I had great fun killing 2 of them on release day as they went around an island broadside to me in my Fuso.

9 minutes ago, Mulletproof said:

Kinda this. I'm not really in awe of it going up against her. She doesn't seem to swing as hard, subjectively speaking from the receiving end. Not that I can just blatantly show her my broadside without penalty, just I'm not overly worried about her shells running me through.

Yeah, I'm not sure what it is, its got some intangibles going for it. I think it has a lot to do with that roughly 100 mm of nose armor that bb's can't punch through when at a slight angle. Couple that with great maneuverability that can coax bb's to shoot and then dodge those shells while getting the back turrets in action, it seems like its ability to stay alive longer and put out damage consistently is what sticks out in my mind as what it is good at.

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its a  t5BB, and WG has to make them strong or no one will buy it due to MM issues.   heck, i find iron due to be OP when I grinded through it, and OR  and  Konig is also still capable.        while it may be strong,  I just don't see it being popular and I ersonally would not buy it since I already have plenty of T5 ships.          if you want a t5  BB that is strong,  it  a good choice, but   you have to want to play t5 as it is always better to buy higher tier than lower, if you are buying premium ships.    

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ARP Kirishima 5 BB japan_wows.svg 2 100.00% 26,610 1,162 0.0 0.0 2.5 0% 31% 0% 835
ARP Kongō 5 BB japan_wows.svg 5 100.00% 38,849 1,360 2.5 1.0 0.6 60% 19% 0% 1,143
ARP Haruna 5 BB japan_wows.svg 12 66.67% 35,611 1,051 1.1 0.8 1.0 33% 23% 0% 1,023
Giulio Cesare 5 BB italy.svg 12 66.67% 64,989 1,445 1.3 0.8 1.2 33% 31% 0% 1,032
Iron Duke 5 BB uk.svg 17 64.71% 45,295 1,193 1.2 0.7 2.4 41% 28% 0% 1,066
Kongo 5 BB japan_wows.svg 40 62.50% 28,882 1,111 1.0 0.6 1.3 43% 19% 0% 971
Texas 5 BB usa.svg 110 60.00% 45,721 1,353 1.7 0.9 2.7 48% 25% 0% 1,059
New York 5 BB usa.svg 85 42.35% 23,232 767 0.6 0.4 0.8 33% 21% 0% 775
König 5 BB germany.svg 28 35.71% 28,536 967 0.7 0.5 1.6 32% 23% 0% 686
Oktyabrskaya Revolutsiya 5 BB ussr.svg 3 33.33% 46,022 1,176 1.0 0.3 2.0 67% 26% 0% 761
ARP Hiei 5 BB japan_wows.svg 1 0.00% 12,851 851 3.0 3.0 1.0 0% 33% 0% 1,206
Edited by Sovereigndawg

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theres only one issue with the numbers argument, theres still not enough games played yet to judge it. Theres some ships in some lines that have a bit higher dmg and wr than others, should we nerf those too?

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2 hours ago, awildpervert said:

theres only one issue with the numbers argument, theres still not enough games played yet to judge it. Theres some ships in some lines that have a bit higher dmg and wr than others, should we nerf those too?

It's the 3rd played ship in tier 5 on EU in the last two weeks. WR is 4th only surpassed by the Kamikazes and Gremy and we all know what happened to those. It's almost inevitable the GC will be pulled from the store at some point.

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7 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Yet these are piddly guns, smaller than the standard of 356mm in her tier range, as well as having flimsy armor.  It's a BB that breaks the norms of what it means for a BB to succeed.

Smaller guns, but faster than other BB's at her tier.  But it's good at killing Cruisers and even DD's.  It can do okay against some BB's, but it really doesn't play like a BB.  With its speed, it's more like a super heavy cruiser.  And it's fast enough to move from one side of the map to the other if you have one flank collapsing.  Where a ship like the NY could only look at the collapse on the mini-map and sigh.  Plus a lot of people miss because they usually underestimate the speed.  But the small guns won't take out a full health BB.  But they can one salvo delete a full health cruiser.  It's not so much OP, but rather a ship that creates some mismatch issues for the enemy to deal with. 

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6 hours ago, awildpervert said:

theres only one issue with the numbers argument, theres still not enough games played yet to judge it. Theres some ships in some lines that have a bit higher dmg and wr than others, should we nerf those too?

That's a pretty broad statement. The reason I looked more at the 2 week numbers is that it has comparable games played versus its t5 counterparts and is still ouperforming them. Also the 2 weeks window cuts out different metas, mm, etc in the past.

 

As to your statement about other ships... Go find me another premium that is this far ahead of its counterparts and tell me if its for sale. This was the whole point of this thread, showing that its numbers, at this time, are right in line with other removed premiums. It's not that its ahead of everything else, its that its FAR ahead of everything else.

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4 hours ago, MHarinxma said:

It's the 3rd played ship in tier 5 on EU in the last two weeks. WR is 4th only surpassed by the Kamikazes and Gremy and we all know what happened to those. It's almost inevitable the GC will be pulled from the store at some point.

It’s not in the store. My guess is that WG will treat it like Okhotnik. That ship was offered once, and probably won’t be offered again. They’ll release it for limited promotions, but I don’t know that it will come back to the premium shop. With Roma on the horizon, WG already has a replacement RM BB lined up. 

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