Jump to content
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
sartt

US CVs are dead if the new PTR stay how it is

25 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

227
[ANTK]
Members
1,719 posts
3,130 battles
44 minutes ago, sartt said:

U.s CV dont get 2 fighter squadrons until essex.

 

You must be a AS CV player, if thats the case then your point has some validity. But for those of us who use strike having at least one fighter to protect our strike planes is more than enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
87
[M_L]
[M_L]
Beta Testers
321 posts
8,837 battles

I don't honestly see why people are complaining so much. Instead of the all or nothing play style that is currently slated with the US CV we are getting a competent strike carrier that can cover it's own attack waves with the fighter squad then go on a recon sweep or rotate the fighters to CAP while the bombers are on the deck. While not as good as either side grade at the moment overall I think they got a good buff to what they have. It is similar to the current version of the Graf Zeppelin your fighters are there to get your bombers to target unmolested. Will current US CV carriers like it? Unknowable but I do know that the test server loadouts are far more balanced when compared to their IJN counterparts than the current loadouts are. If they had added these loadouts to the USN carriers I would use them instead of the others as they are either more flexible or powerful than what we got. If the AP bombs from test are worth anything I might be able to recommend the US carrier line once again. 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
487
[-1]
Beta Testers
1,805 posts
18,763 battles
1 hour ago, Battleship_Dunkerque said:

By all means, feel free to cease playing them.

I haven't played them in over a year and I have all the CVs up to tier (8) and won't play them until to fix this CV mess !!!  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
3,066 posts
1,816 battles

I can't say the new loadouts are all that bad but this is coming from someone who always uses the stock loadout so think of it what you will. I'm more interested in seeing what the other loadouts are going to be and if they aren't as cripplingly over specialized as what we have now especially at low tiers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
87
[M_L]
[M_L]
Beta Testers
321 posts
8,837 battles

I like strike on my USN CV but if dropping a dive bomber for a fighter (in most cases) and being given a torpedo squad at tier 10. YES PLEASE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,604 posts
3,573 battles

The problem is that its still sub-par in comparison to IJN and now we don't even have the option to do one thing on somewhat equal footing with them.  USN balanced is going to be doing less damage than IJN balanced and be less capable of anti-air and is no comparison to IJN AS.  AP bombs aren't closing that gap either,  its just giving us a crippling overspecialization that is STILL RNG dependent.  It's back to the old "enemy ship totally in bombing circle,  nothing interfering with drop,  two bombs of eight hitting" scenario and thats with a more narrow drop pattern.

This is,  however,  going to help strike overall I think.  That fighter squadron is going to help more strikes get through and prevent being shut down entirely.  Its a start.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16
[BSC]
Beta Testers
46 posts
6,501 battles

They just need to start the F over with CVs.  Ship class preference should be about even across the board.  I'd say, based on game make up, it goes from 4-1 DD v CV to 8+ to 1 as tiers go up. 

Why?  Because they aren't any fun. 

Don't blame MMing rules either.  Those are a reaction to the nose dive that occurred in CV popularity when they differentiated the carrier mechanics and when they added strafe to the game.  Both crashed the cv population.  In closed beta I played 4v4 CV matches because there were so many in queue.  I'm not sure we need to go back to that, but at tier 6+ you're getting less than 1v1 cv participation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50
[MIA-I]
Members
168 posts
5,742 battles

The issue, as stated above, is that with almost no exceptions, these "balanced" loadouts are weaker at everything than comparable IJN CV loadouts.

Tier V:

The addition of a dive bomber to the Bogue's stock loadout is sketchy at best. Sure, it'll add some tactical flexibility and the chance to get some DOT damage done, but it cuts severely into the Bogue's already limited reserves at a tier where it'll constantly see Clevelands and Texases. At least it'll always have the ability to counter the Zuiho's fighters, however, and it eliminates the cancer that is Air Superiority Bogue.

Tier VI:

This is where some problems begin to develop. On the one hand, 1-1-1 Indy is not bad for doling out damage, especially since unlike the Bogue, you can manual drop and strafe. However, you're going to see the AS jerks gravitate to the 3-1-1 Ryujo with greater frequency. And with only one fighter squadron at your disposal, unless you pull some really awesome strafes, you're going to lose that air battle every single time.

Tier VII:

This is where the problem begins to get even worse. The single fighter squadron that the Ranger gets has always been sorely outclassed by the two fighter squadrons of the Hiryu. The second dive bomber squadron is barely an improvement over the current stock loadout in terms of damage output, and in exchange you get the option to go full strike or air superiority torn away from you. 1 fighter squadron is not enough at tier 7 to compete unless the enemy CV really sucks with their fighters. It is practically child's play in the current meta for a CV player to lock a fighter squadron with one of their own and then strafe the locked squadron with a second squadron. One fighter squadron isn't even enough to distract enemy fighters, because the enemy CV captain will lock the single fighter squadron with one and then wipe the strike planes with the other.

Every CV at tier 7 is capable of this now...except for the Ranger.

Tier VIII:

The issue here is repeated: Strike Lexington was powerful when it wasn't getting locked out by enemy fighters, and the introduction of the Enterprise just added another enemy CV that would be guaranteed to have them. It bears repeating: ONE FIGHTER SQUADRON IS NOT ENOUGH. Especially at the cost of a reduction in the Lexington's strike capacity.

Now, tier VIII is the first tier where AP bombs will be a thing for US CVs, but as proven by their presence in the Enterprise's repertoire, they're a situational weapon at best. They're only useful against German battleships, some Japanese battleships, and a couple of US battleships. (I'll admit I haven't taken on enough British battleships to know where they fall on this spectrum). They're only useful against a very few cruisers, and they're next to useless against destroyers. If US carriers had the option to switch bomb types in the middle of a battle this weakness would be alleviated, but they can't, so it remains a glaring weakness.

In addition to this, dive bombs are still completely based on RNG. The shape of the ellipse makes AP bombs even worse in most combat scenarios than HE bombs, since most ships will be in hard turns, which means only a small part of the ellipse will actually cover the ship. And even then, the damage potential of those AP bombs is lower than the HE bombs unless you get citadels, and that's even more RNG-dependent than the fire chance on HE bombs.

Tier IX:

Overall this package is an improvement from the 1-1-2 on the Ranger and Lexington, but inexplicably, WG chooses to nerf the US torpedo bombers even further than they already have. Why? Why make them even slower and weaker in the already ridiculous tier 9 AA?

Yes, I'm aware: "the equipment module increases their survivability!"

Here's the thing though:

WE CAN ALREADY MOUNT THAT MODULE WITH TIER IX AND X AIRCRAFT, AND THEY

STILL.

MELT.

UNDER HIGH.

TIER.

AA.

So all this does is make the issue EVEN WORSE, and makes US CVs EVEN MORE RELIANT ON DIVE BOMBER DAMAGE THAN THEY HAVE BEEN, WHICH HAS BEEN THE FRACKING ISSUE ALL ALONG WITH THE ESSEX AND MIDWAY.

The reason WHY Essex and Midway's damage and win rate dropped off a cliff is BECAUSE their torpedo bomber damage was completely neutered. It can all be traced back to patch 5.3, when Essex and Midway were stripped of their second torpedo bomber squadron and equipped with an extra dive bomber squadron instead. Dive bombers were buffed to compensate, but then WG stripped away most of those compensating buffs in subsequent patches anyway.

YES, the old setups were blatantly overpowered (or at least seemed that way) back then, but it's important to keep in mind that overall tier 10 AA was much weaker back then, so high tier carriers operated with near impunity.

To illustrate how badly this nerf affects the potential survivability of the Essex/Midway torpedo bombers, here's the total HP of the bombers on Lexington, Essex and Midway, WITH the HP buff module:

TBM-3: 1966 HP, 136 knot speed

BTD-1: 2343 HP, 150 knot speed

XSB2D: 2438 HP, 151 knot speed

So not only will US torpedo bombers be brutally slow from now on, they'll lose 20 percent of their current HP (an HP pool that, once again, STILL doesn't last long against tier 9-10 AA).

Tier X:

Second verse same as the first.

Fine, Midway gets 2 torp bomber squadrons again. However, those bombers will melt so fast that Midway might as well gift the enemy team free plane kill ribbons with every squadron launch.

Here's what irks me most of all, however: for the last TWO YEARS the Taiho and Hakuryu have been allowed to run around with 12 torpedo bombers (just as many as the Essex and Midway had when they were "overpowered") with almost no penalty to compensate for this.

Here's how the Taiho's and Hak's torpedo bomber health shakes out (with the HP upgrade equipment):

Aichi B7A2: 2242 HP, 156 knot speed

Nakajima C6N1-B: 2426 HP, 164 knot speed

So not only are the differences in HP between the IJN and their current USN counterparts NEGLIGIBLE, but they're FASTER and the IJN gets MORE of them. And it's been this way for TWO YEARS.

But if the US gets 2 torp bomber squadrons (12 total) they have to be tier 8 to be balanced? WHY? Because of a 2 year old meta that simply doesn't exist anymore?

Is this really the best that WG's staff have managed over the course of 2 years?

Or are they simply, completely uninterested in actually making US CVs competitive again?

  • Cool 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,604 posts
3,573 battles
7 hours ago, thelastholdout said:

The issue, as stated above, is that with almost no exceptions, these "balanced" loadouts are weaker at everything than comparable IJN CV loadouts.

Tier V:

The addition of a dive bomber to the Bogue's stock loadout is sketchy at best. Sure, it'll add some tactical flexibility and the chance to get some DOT damage done, but it cuts severely into the Bogue's already limited reserves at a tier where it'll constantly see Clevelands and Texases. At least it'll always have the ability to counter the Zuiho's fighters, however, and it eliminates the cancer that is Air Superiority Bogue.

Tier VI:

This is where some problems begin to develop. On the one hand, 1-1-1 Indy is not bad for doling out damage, especially since unlike the Bogue, you can manual drop and strafe. However, you're going to see the AS jerks gravitate to the 3-1-1 Ryujo with greater frequency. And with only one fighter squadron at your disposal, unless you pull some really awesome strafes, you're going to lose that air battle every single time.

Tier VII:

This is where the problem begins to get even worse. The single fighter squadron that the Ranger gets has always been sorely outclassed by the two fighter squadrons of the Hiryu. The second dive bomber squadron is barely an improvement over the current stock loadout in terms of damage output, and in exchange you get the option to go full strike or air superiority torn away from you. 1 fighter squadron is not enough at tier 7 to compete unless the enemy CV really sucks with their fighters. It is practically child's play in the current meta for a CV player to lock a fighter squadron with one of their own and then strafe the locked squadron with a second squadron. One fighter squadron isn't even enough to distract enemy fighters, because the enemy CV captain will lock the single fighter squadron with one and then wipe the strike planes with the other.

Every CV at tier 7 is capable of this now...except for the Ranger.

Tier VIII:

The issue here is repeated: Strike Lexington was powerful when it wasn't getting locked out by enemy fighters, and the introduction of the Enterprise just added another enemy CV that would be guaranteed to have them. It bears repeating: ONE FIGHTER SQUADRON IS NOT ENOUGH. Especially at the cost of a reduction in the Lexington's strike capacity.

Now, tier VIII is the first tier where AP bombs will be a thing for US CVs, but as proven by their presence in the Enterprise's repertoire, they're a situational weapon at best. They're only useful against German battleships, some Japanese battleships, and a couple of US battleships. (I'll admit I haven't taken on enough British battleships to know where they fall on this spectrum). They're only useful against a very few cruisers, and they're next to useless against destroyers. If US carriers had the option to switch bomb types in the middle of a battle this weakness would be alleviated, but they can't, so it remains a glaring weakness.

In addition to this, dive bombs are still completely based on RNG. The shape of the ellipse makes AP bombs even worse in most combat scenarios than HE bombs, since most ships will be in hard turns, which means only a small part of the ellipse will actually cover the ship. And even then, the damage potential of those AP bombs is lower than the HE bombs unless you get citadels, and that's even more RNG-dependent than the fire chance on HE bombs.

Tier IX:

Overall this package is an improvement from the 1-1-2 on the Ranger and Lexington, but inexplicably, WG chooses to nerf the US torpedo bombers even further than they already have. Why? Why make them even slower and weaker in the already ridiculous tier 9 AA?

Yes, I'm aware: "the equipment module increases their survivability!"

Here's the thing though:

WE CAN ALREADY MOUNT THAT MODULE WITH TIER IX AND X AIRCRAFT, AND THEY

STILL.

MELT.

UNDER HIGH.

TIER.

AA.

So all this does is make the issue EVEN WORSE, and makes US CVs EVEN MORE RELIANT ON DIVE BOMBER DAMAGE THAN THEY HAVE BEEN, WHICH HAS BEEN THE FRACKING ISSUE ALL ALONG WITH THE ESSEX AND MIDWAY.

The reason WHY Essex and Midway's damage and win rate dropped off a cliff is BECAUSE their torpedo bomber damage was completely neutered. It can all be traced back to patch 5.3, when Essex and Midway were stripped of their second torpedo bomber squadron and equipped with an extra dive bomber squadron instead. Dive bombers were buffed to compensate, but then WG stripped away most of those compensating buffs in subsequent patches anyway.

YES, the old setups were blatantly overpowered (or at least seemed that way) back then, but it's important to keep in mind that overall tier 10 AA was much weaker back then, so high tier carriers operated with near impunity.

To illustrate how badly this nerf affects the potential survivability of the Essex/Midway torpedo bombers, here's the total HP of the bombers on Lexington, Essex and Midway, WITH the HP buff module:

TBM-3: 1966 HP, 136 knot speed

BTD-1: 2343 HP, 150 knot speed

XSB2D: 2438 HP, 151 knot speed

So not only will US torpedo bombers be brutally slow from now on, they'll lose 20 percent of their current HP (an HP pool that, once again, STILL doesn't last long against tier 9-10 AA).

Tier X:

Second verse same as the first.

Fine, Midway gets 2 torp bomber squadrons again. However, those bombers will melt so fast that Midway might as well gift the enemy team free plane kill ribbons with every squadron launch.

Here's what irks me most of all, however: for the last TWO YEARS the Taiho and Hakuryu have been allowed to run around with 12 torpedo bombers (just as many as the Essex and Midway had when they were "overpowered") with almost no penalty to compensate for this.

Here's how the Taiho's and Hak's torpedo bomber health shakes out (with the HP upgrade equipment):

Aichi B7A2: 2242 HP, 156 knot speed

Nakajima C6N1-B: 2426 HP, 164 knot speed

So not only are the differences in HP between the IJN and their current USN counterparts NEGLIGIBLE, but they're FASTER and the IJN gets MORE of them. And it's been this way for TWO YEARS.

But if the US gets 2 torp bomber squadrons (12 total) they have to be tier 8 to be balanced? WHY? Because of a 2 year old meta that simply doesn't exist anymore?

Is this really the best that WG's staff have managed over the course of 2 years?

Or are they simply, completely uninterested in actually making US CVs competitive again?

I don't think they know how.  I mean I get that its hard,  but leaving the two nations so imbalanced for nearly two years and then coming back by neutering USN and giving them what is absolutely sub-par in comparison to every CV across all tiers is just...I dunno,  man.  At this point I think they need to scrap a number of things and start over because clearly,  they can not balance 6 size units against 4 size.

The only thing I can think of is to make 7 USN fighters comparable to 10 IJN fighters and adjust the damage of USN bombers to match a realistic version of what IJN does instead of the current theoretical maximum based off of inflated HE damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,622
[E-E]
[E-E]
Members
15,667 posts
14,042 battles

The Stock Loadouts these CVs are transitioning to can already get outmuscled by IJN Strike in air-to-air.

 

Wait until Ranked though.  CVs use AS spec.  The Tiers Ranked typically uses are Tier VI, VII, VIII.

 

How are those 1 USN fighter squadrons going to compete with 3 fighter squadrons of AS IJN CVs?

 

There's Tier VI - AS Ryujo, 3 fighter units of 12 planes.  15 planes if ASE is traited.  15 planes vs 6 of Independence, 7 if she has ASE.

 

Then there's Tier VII

- Hiryu, who was the best performing CV last Tier VII Ranked.  She will still have AS / Strike options.

- Saipan with her 2-3 Tier IX fighter units.  Yes.  1 Ranger fighter squad will do well.

- Kaga will have more planes in the air than 1 Ranger fighter squad can stop.  Matter of fact, Kaga can and will easily destroy Ranger in ONE snipe attempt.  Send in the pair of Tier Vi fighters to tie Ranger's 1 fighter unit down or strafe it, then send in the TBs and DBs to wreck Ranger in one attack.  This is already happening because I see Strike and Stock Rangers get nuked by Kaga all the time.  AS Ranger can stop that cold, but that will not be an option for Ranger soon.

 

Then there's Tier VIII.

- Shokaku is going to Shokaku with full AS / Strike options.  Do keep in mind, Shokaku's current Strike Spec used to be her AS spec when this game launched :Smile_teethhappy:  Her Strike Spec used to be 0/3/3 back in the day :Smile_glasses:

- Enterprise's pair of Tier VII planes with MASSIVE RESERVES will shut down Lexington's 1 fighter unit with zero problems and then harass the remaining bombers to no end.

- Graf Zeppelin is the Wild Card because she is being tweaked.  Suffice to say, WG is ensuring that this Premium CV will at least be decent so that she at least will not be as bad as Lexington.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
3,066 posts
1,816 battles
19 hours ago, thelastholdout said:

Fine, Midway gets 2 torp bomber squadrons again. However, those bombers will melt so fast that Midway might as well gift the enemy team free plane kill ribbons with every squadron launch.

 

I didn't have my Midway planes melt against everything just everything US. It's still to early to be all doom and gloom though since the new patch isn't even out yet and they just announced a second PT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
263
[RKN]
Members
1,634 posts
3,357 battles

Honestly, I don't think it's possible to fairly balance the two lines while the US still have 6-7 plane squadrons. This is probably as close as they can get to balance without screwing over IJN CVs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,622
[E-E]
[E-E]
Members
15,667 posts
14,042 battles
On 22/11/2017 at 8:05 PM, megadeux said:

Honestly, I don't think it's possible to fairly balance the two lines while the US still have 6-7 plane squadrons. This is probably as close as they can get to balance without screwing over IJN CVs.

 

What balance?

 

IJN CVs before these changes ran supreme against USN CVs.

IJN CVs after these changes will still run supreme against USN CVs.

 

When Ranked rolls around, those AS IJN CVs will completely obliterate and easily shut down the USN CVs.  Because 15 fighter planes > 7 fighter planes, no matter the plane quality.

 

And I'm quite annoyed that Tier IX-X USN CVs lose Tier X TBs and are getting [edited] sideways by being straddled with Tier VIII planes that already evaporate against high tier AA.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9
[IP]
Members
43 posts
4,942 battles
12 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

 

What balance?

 

IJN CVs before these changes ran supreme against USN CVs.

IJN CVs after these changes will still run supreme against USN CVs.

 

When Ranked rolls around, those AS IJN CVs will completely obliterate and easily shut down the USN CVs.  Because 15 fighter planes > 7 fighter planes, no matter the plane quality.

 

And I'm quite annoyed that Tier IX-X USN CVs lose Tier X TBs and are getting f--ked sideways by being straddled with Tier VIII planes that already evaporate against high tier AA.

 

Fine, give me tier 8 TBs but give me my jets back.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16
[EASY]
[EASY]
Members
80 posts
12,452 battles

I play the GZ and the test ships have 1 sqdn with 10 planes (9+1 for commander) -- as of now any other tier 8 CV has 2 fighter squadrons and if the player knows what he is doing -- he owns me. With the crap of straffing allowed - all they have to do is lock on squadron onto you - bring the other in - click to exit and strafe away. Over and over and over --- you have nothing you can do but avoid combat with fighters -- change the American CV's to 1 fighter squadron and the Japanese CV's will rule Random. (UNLESS they want to take away the Straffing [edited])

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
3,338 posts
3,779 battles
14 hours ago, arcanexvi said:

Fine, give me tier 8 TBs but give me my jets back.

F8F has the same stats that the jets did. Literally nothing changed about the planes, they just got new names and sprites.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9
[IP]
Members
43 posts
4,942 battles
16 hours ago, Aetreus said:

F8F has the same stats that the jets did. Literally nothing changed about the planes, they just got new names and sprites.

I know this. I mean bring back the proper planes and buff stats for them accordingly so that it can be the American "flavor" to work towards. Much like yamatos guns. Nothing else like it. Make jets that type of unique thing for USN.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
3,066 posts
1,816 battles
On 11/21/2017 at 5:15 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Wait until Ranked though.  CVs use AS spec.  The Tiers Ranked typically uses are Tier VI, VII, VIII.

 

People use US CV in ranked :Smile_amazed: I would be surprised if they still use them in random after this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31
[WOLF4]
Members
173 posts
1,280 battles

I will probably pick up the bogue again for some clubbing fun. I don't see this as bad this is the first step for rebalancing CVs not the final step. Next will be Japan's turn. Basically one loadout for both nations is alot easier to balance then 3 variants with a total of 9 different combinations I believe my math may be off. Then after they do that we will get mechanic's overhauled and fingers crossed no more strafing and then once that is done we may see the British CVs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
841 posts
4,880 battles

Gaining a fighter squadron for my US CV - Yes!

Losing 25% of my strike ability to gain that 1 fighter - Fail!

 

I'll still be outnumbered by IJN planes (they'll use 1 squadron to lock my fighters, the other to strafe them - and that's assuming i'm not facing a carrier that gets 3 fighters) and they'll still outnumber me in all other plane types as well... Oh, and the best part, where they get to choose from 3 loadouts, I get... ONE.

 

Another nail in the coffin for USN CVs.

Edited by FleetAdmiral_Assassin
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×