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NeutralState

Why Not to Kidd [Shower thoughts?]

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It seems people are hyping about the Kidd mainly due to its AA capabilities. But there are reasons to ponder before an average player commits to buy the ship and use it to farm credits or experience.

 

The Kidd is basically a Benson with 5 less torpedoes. The guns are almost identical (Kidd has slightly longer range, at 12 km with that arc it's a miracle to hit thing but a straight sailing BB). Being destroyers, the majority of the damage, especially % damage done to target, will be from their torpedoes. So having 50% less torpedoes is a great hindrance to credit and exp farming, because the game uses % damage done as a major metric for calculation. Harder to do large amount of % damage to enemies is one of the most important factor to consider before buying the Kidd. 

 

The extra consumable also means extra maintenance cost. A player can choose to run with non premium consumables but the ship's abilities will literally be greatly reduced. The AA consumable seems nice now, because for some reason, CVs have forgotten about the age old tactic of baiting out the defensive AA. Sooner or later, CVs are going to remember again (hoping a ship's performance based on enemies' idiocy is not a stable plan). On top, and the major reason, is that encountering a CV in game is not more than 50%, it's around 40%. So it's not optimal running premium AA all the time, and if not running non premium AA is more likely then CVs will simply bait and drop, making the consumable moot.

 

Maneuverability wise, the Kidd has longer rudder shift. It makes turning in the restricted areas inside a smoke cloud harder, and thus making it more vulnerable to torpedoes. Even outside the smoke, longer rudder shift means harder to dodge torpedoes.

 

Right now Kidd has slightly more avg damage done and slightly higher win rate than Benson, but judging by the distribution of Benson's "rating" (which is heavily based on avg damage) which skews heavily to the right (Kidd's distribution not out yet). The differences in performance between the two might not be statistically significant (variance too high). Compare to Fletcher (which has 5 more torps, and better torps), Kidd's average damage done is much lower. The higher avg exp in Kidd can be explained by much higher planes down than Benson, but that performance is heavily depending on meeting high numbers of subpar CV players. Otherwise, avg ships killed and kills per death between the two are identical (means match influence wise, the two are pretty much same, after all both are basically the same ship). Comparing to Fletcher, Kidd's kill to death ratio is also much lower, most likely due to the torpedo deficiency. Making a kill means extra credits, making a kill with a salvo of torps outright, mean crap pile of credits. So, having 50% less torps is really hurting the Kidd. Even judging by the top performing captains in Fletcher, Benson, and Kidd; Kidd's average damage is much lower than the first two.

 

Kidd probably can perform fairly well in a seasoned player's hand, but it is by no means living up to the hype and can perform well for everyone (well it is true for every ship, but the point here is that Kidd will be a harder ship to play, unless someone wants to play the game like a serious business... it's not "fun", per se.)

 

ps: Since it seems to be a trend of boosting AAs, WG starting to realize how OP CVs are. CVs even by WG's own admission to have too much influence on a match, and thus, CVs need nerfing.

Edited by NeutralState

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Meanwhile, like the Atlanta, if you fully AA spec the ship and 19pt Captain MM makes it less likely you will see that many CV matches. If you want to see CVs in it you need to go the IFHE route and then it is no longer all that special of a ship. This is the last AA flavored/gimmicked premium ship I'm going to buy because MM penalizes you for playing the ship as design and promoted. 

 

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I'll just leave this here.  To me it seems like a ship is fairly well balanced if people are anywhere between "It sucks" and "OMG NEW BALFEST!"

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

Compare to Fletcher (which has 5 more torps, and better torps), Kidd's average damage done is much lower

 

Firstly, I would hope that the Fletcher is still the better ship, considering that's a T9 boat, not a T8. The last thing I wanna see whilst grinding to my Benson is a new, OP American T8 DD. :Smile_sceptic: Though after reading what the poster above me had to say, that doesn't make me feel too confident in my abilities...

 

20 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

ps: Since it seems to be a trend of boosting AAs, WG starting to realize how OP CVs are. CVs even by WG's own admission to have too much influence on a match, and thus, CVs need nerfing.

 

Everything else was a nice read, but... this... :Smile_teethhappy: Of course they have a larger influence on the outcome of a match.

 

Aircraft Carriers literally made Battleships obsolete in the real world, and that's because they use Aircraft, not giant long ranged artillery guns. Aircraft are far more capable and versatile than any ship ever built in the world, because they don't require water to float on... If you want to nerf CVs, all you'd be doing is indirectly buffing Battleships by reducing the utility of one of their most dangerous opponents. CVs don't need any nerfs right now. CVs are supposed to be powerful, and in the right hands, they are powerful. In fact, I shot down ten tier 5 planes in my Mutsuki, of all things today. A DD, wrecking aircraft. If anything, American CVs need a little more love, and WG is already addressing, or trying to, with the Midways rework.

Edited by AllysaRockz
Updated first comment due to reply above ^

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Got Fletcher. Don't need Kidd with Benson's torpedoes. Gonna run my Benson instead. Give me only 5 Fletcher torpedoes on Kidd and I might be buyer. A T8 DD with a heal and decent smoke can be a neat thing with the right offensive tools, and torpedoes are a DDs' raison d'être. Better yet, give Fletcher a C hull, square bridge, with the kamikaze AA augment and only 5 torpedoes at T9! You won't need the heal! I sense a WG/WoWs money con at work here....

Edited by GrandAdmiral_2016
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47 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

It seems people are hyping about the Kidd mainly due to its AA capabilities. But there are reasons to ponder before an average player commits to buy the ship and use it to farm credits or experience.

 

The Kidd is basically a Benson with 5 less torpedoes. The guns are almost identical (Kidd has slightly longer range, at 12 km with that arc it's a miracle to hit thing but a straight sailing BB). Being destroyers, the majority of the damage, especially % damage done to target, will be from their torpedoes. So having 50% less torpedoes is a great hindrance to credit and exp farming, because the game uses % damage done as a major metric for calculation. Harder to do large amount of % damage to enemies is one of the most important factor to consider before buying the Kidd. 

 

The extra consumable also means extra maintenance cost. A player can choose to run with non premium consumables but the ship's abilities will literally be greatly reduced. The AA consumable seems nice now, because for some reason, CVs have forgotten about the age old tactic of baiting out the defensive AA. Sooner or later, CVs are going to remember again (hoping a ship's performance based on enemies' idiocy is not a stable plan). On top, and the major reason, is that encountering a CV in game is not more than 50%, it's around 40%. So it's not optimal running premium AA all the time, and if not running non premium AA is more likely then CVs will simply bait and drop, making the consumable moot.

 

Maneuverability wise, the Kidd has longer rudder shift. It makes turning in the restricted areas inside a smoke cloud harder, and thus making it more vulnerable to torpedoes. Even outside the smoke, longer rudder shift means harder to dodge torpedoes.

 

Right now Kidd has slightly more avg damage done and slightly higher win rate than Benson, but judging by the distribution of Benson's "rating" (which is heavily based on avg damage) which skews heavily to the right (Kidd's distribution not out yet). The differences in performance between the two might not be statistically significant (variance too high). Compare to Fletcher (which has 5 more torps, and better torps), Kidd's average damage done is much lower. The higher avg exp in Kidd can be explained by much higher planes down than Benson, but that performance is heavily depending on meeting high numbers of subpar CV players. Otherwise, avg ships killed and kills per death between the two are identical (means match influence wise, the two are pretty much same, after all both are basically the same ship). Comparing to Fletcher, Kidd's kill to death ratio is also much lower, most likely due to the torpedo deficiency. Making a kill means extra credits, making a kill with a salvo of torps outright, mean crap pile of credits. So, having 50% less torps is really hurting the Kidd. Even judging by the top performing captains in Fletcher, Benson, and Kidd; Kidd's average damage is much lower than the first two.

 

Kidd probably can perform fairly well in a seasoned player's hand, but it is by no means living up to the hype and can perform well for everyone (well it is true for every ship, but the point here is that Kidd will be a harder ship to play, unless someone wants to play the game like a serious business... it's not "fun", per se.)

 

ps: Since it seems to be a trend of boosting AAs, WG starting to realize how OP CVs are. CVs even by WG's own admission to have too much influence on a match, and thus, CVs need nerfing.

I've fought against and spectated several Kidd's in-game today, and so far my observation has been that a Kidd wipes the floor with any Benson it comes across. In the most recent encounter, both I and the Kidd were at full health when I he spotted me (he had better concealment than my Benson's 5.9). He was broadside to me, I was facing him. I turned broadside and we began firing at about the same time. I got off 2 volleys with my Benson, and scored 8 hits. He killed me with his second volley.

 

I haven't played one, only against and along side them, but so far today every DD vs DD fight i've seen involving a Kidd, has been horribly one sided with the Kidd blowing thru whatever it faced.

Edited by FleetAdmiral_Assassin

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1 hour ago, NeutralState said:

It seems people are hyping about the Kidd mainly due to its AA capabilities. But there are reasons to ponder before an average player commits to buy the ship and use it to farm credits or experience.

 

The Kidd is basically a Benson with 5 less torpedoes. The guns are almost identical (Kidd has slightly longer range, at 12 km with that arc it's a miracle to hit thing but a straight sailing BB). Being destroyers, the majority of the damage, especially % damage done to target, will be from their torpedoes. So having 50% less torpedoes is a great hindrance to credit and exp farming, because the game uses % damage done as a major metric for calculation. Harder to do large amount of % damage to enemies is one of the most important factor to consider before buying the Kidd. 

 

The extra consumable also means extra maintenance cost. A player can choose to run with non premium consumables but the ship's abilities will literally be greatly reduced. The AA consumable seems nice now, because for some reason, CVs have forgotten about the age old tactic of baiting out the defensive AA. Sooner or later, CVs are going to remember again (hoping a ship's performance based on enemies' idiocy is not a stable plan). On top, and the major reason, is that encountering a CV in game is not more than 50%, it's around 40%. So it's not optimal running premium AA all the time, and if not running non premium AA is more likely then CVs will simply bait and drop, making the consumable moot.

 

Maneuverability wise, the Kidd has longer rudder shift. It makes turning in the restricted areas inside a smoke cloud harder, and thus making it more vulnerable to torpedoes. Even outside the smoke, longer rudder shift means harder to dodge torpedoes.

 

Right now Kidd has slightly more avg damage done and slightly higher win rate than Benson, but judging by the distribution of Benson's "rating" (which is heavily based on avg damage) which skews heavily to the right (Kidd's distribution not out yet). The differences in performance between the two might not be statistically significant (variance too high). Compare to Fletcher (which has 5 more torps, and better torps), Kidd's average damage done is much lower. The higher avg exp in Kidd can be explained by much higher planes down than Benson, but that performance is heavily depending on meeting high numbers of subpar CV players. Otherwise, avg ships killed and kills per death between the two are identical (means match influence wise, the two are pretty much same, after all both are basically the same ship). Comparing to Fletcher, Kidd's kill to death ratio is also much lower, most likely due to the torpedo deficiency. Making a kill means extra credits, making a kill with a salvo of torps outright, mean crap pile of credits. So, having 50% less torps is really hurting the Kidd. Even judging by the top performing captains in Fletcher, Benson, and Kidd; Kidd's average damage is much lower than the first two.

 

Kidd probably can perform fairly well in a seasoned player's hand, but it is by no means living up to the hype and can perform well for everyone (well it is true for every ship, but the point here is that Kidd will be a harder ship to play, unless someone wants to play the game like a serious business... it's not "fun", per se.)

 

ps: Since it seems to be a trend of boosting AAs, WG starting to realize how OP CVs are. CVs even by WG's own admission to have too much influence on a match, and thus, CVs need nerfing.

Yeah but they don't understand why they have so much influence.

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I was debating whether or not to get this ship for a long while, but now I finally got it, played two games in it ... and OMGWTFBBQAWESOMESAUCE! I LOVE this ship. Her Repair Party alone is well worth the loss of half her torpedoes. The really strong AA is merely icing on the cake. Both times I played her so far, said Repair Party is what kept me alive till the end while I ran around capping and smacking other DDs in the face. Also helps that both games I played in had CVs who tried really hard (and failed) to sink me.

 

If you like gunboating and dueling in caps, this is THE ship to get.

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2 hours ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

Got Fletcher. Don't need Kidd with Benson's torpedoes. Gonna run my Benson instead.

 

Except I absolutely suck wind with Benson, and consider it to be an utter piece of trash, when compared against it's reputation. (38% WR in that junk heap.) Don't see how I could possibly do any worse with Kidd.

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3 hours ago, NeutralState said:

It seems people are hyping about the Kidd mainly due to its AA capabilities. But there are reasons to ponder before an average player commits to buy the ship and use it to farm credits or experience.

 

The extra consumable also means extra maintenance cost. A player can choose to run with non premium consumables but the ship's abilities will literally be greatly reduced. The AA consumable seems nice now, because for some reason, CVs have forgotten about the age old tactic of baiting out the defensive AA. Sooner or later, CVs are going to remember again (hoping a ship's performance based on enemies' idiocy is not a stable plan). On top, and the major reason, is that encountering a CV in game is not more than 50%, it's around 40%. So it's not optimal running premium AA all the time, and if not running non premium AA is more likely then CVs will simply bait and drop, making the consumable moot.

 

A lot on this point can depend on how you play.  Do you play in divisions or not?  If you do, can you bring your Kidd into a battle div'd with a carrier?  If you can, you'll put yourself in a position to see CV's 100% of the time you've done this one little thing.  Of course, if you're playing solo, then using all those prem consumables, particularly the AA related ones may be a more difficult choice.

 

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Just now, Crucis said:

A lot on this point can depend on how you play.  Do you play in divisions or not?  If you do, can you bring your Kidd into a battle div'd with a carrier?  If you can, you'll put yourself in a position to see CV's 100% of the time you've done this one little thing.  Of course, if you're playing solo, then using all those prem consumables, particularly the AA related ones may be a more difficult choice.

 

@Pulicat Did that, they lost the game... not sure what his total tally of the night is though, but then again, they were better than average players to start with.

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1 minute ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

 

Except I absolutely suck wind with Benson, and consider it to be an utter piece of trash, when compared against it's reputation. (38% WR in that junk heap.) Don't see how I could possibly do any worse with Kidd.

This is something I don't get.  I can understand where people will stink in certain ships.  But people should be smart enough to recognize that just because THEY can't make a given ship work does not mean that that ship is trash.  Sometimes, it really is just operator error.

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4 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

 

Except I absolutely suck wind with Benson, and consider it to be an utter piece of trash, when compared against it's reputation. (38% WR in that junk heap.) Don't see how I could possibly do any worse with Kidd.

Why though, Benson's a comfy DD to play. Here's how you play Benson, first play 500 games in IJN DDs, then switch to Benson. It's like dropping all the weight training baggage, and you are suddenly god. Totally unironic here... which is kinda sad, for IJN DDs.

Edited by NeutralState

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11 minutes ago, NeutralState said:

Why though, Benson's a comfy DD to play. Here's how you play Benson, first play 500 games in IJN DDs, then switch to Benson. It's like dropping all the weight training baggage, and you are suddenly god. Totally unironic here... which is kinda sad, for IJN DDs.

 

This is one of the dumbest comments posted on the board this week.

 

They play nothing alike. At all.  It's like saying you can be a pro CV player by playing a ton of destroyer games. It's nonsensical.

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15 minutes ago, Crucis said:

A lot on this point can depend on how you play.  Do you play in divisions or not?  If you do, can you bring your Kidd into a battle div'd with a carrier?  If you can, you'll put yourself in a position to see CV's 100% of the time you've done this one little thing.  Of course, if you're playing solo, then using all those prem consumables, particularly the AA related ones may be a more difficult choice.

 

 

If you want to be cruel, div up a T7 CV with a pair of Kidd.

 

At most it will be a T9 game.  The red CV will be pretty much denied doing anything the entire game.  Plus you have a pair of Kidd working as a team to smash faces on any cap they choose.

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2 minutes ago, Grizley said:

 

This is one of the dumbest comments posted on the board this week.

 

They play nothing alike. At all.  It's like saying you can be a pro CV player by playing a ton of destroyer games. It's nonsensical.

 

huh.jpg

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5 minutes ago, Grizley said:

 

This is one of the dumbest comments posted on the board this week.

 

They play nothing alike. At all.  It's like saying you can be a pro CV player by playing a ton of destroyer games. It's nonsensical.

Actually, I don't think that it's all that dumb.  The way I read NS' comment is that all those IJN DD games of experience should give a Benson player a good, solid grounding in stealth torp DD play, which you can then  combine with all your experience with USN gunboat DD play to become a more effective player.

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8 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Actually, I don't think that it's all that dumb.  The way I read NS' comment is that all those IJN DD games of experience should give a Benson player a good, solid grounding in stealth torp DD play, which you can then  combine with all your experience with USN gunboat DD play to become a more effective player.

 

Or, play the USN DD line.  Get used to not having torps you can stealth drop.  Get to the Benson and profit from being able to add a whole new dimension to your game.

 

Yes, the Mahan can stealth drop them too, but not like the Benson.

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29 minutes ago, Grizley said:

 

If you want to be cruel, div up a T7 CV with a pair of Kidd.

 

At most it will be a T9 game.  The red CV will be pretty much denied doing anything the entire game.  Plus you have a pair of Kidd working as a team to smash faces on any cap they choose.

lol the T7 CV is going to get dragged into lots of T10 matches cause thats how T8 works

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

This is something I don't get.  I can understand where people will stink in certain ships.  But people should be smart enough to recognize that just because THEY can't make a given ship work does not mean that that ship is trash.  Sometimes, it really is just operator error.

 

It's BECAUSE I can't make it work that TO ME it is utter trash. How other people do in it, and feel about it is another matter/opinion. Many people swear by the thing; I don't. Call it 'operator error' if you wish, doesn't change that I can't make the thing perform at anything close to its reputation.

 

As a matter of personal opionion; when I finally reached 100 games in Benson, that seemed a good stopping point and I sold it. No reason to keep something that doesn't produce any useful return; either in enjoyment/fun, or wins.

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10 hours ago, NeutralState said:

Why though, Benson's a comfy DD to play. Here's how you play Benson, first play 500 games in IJN DDs, then switch to Benson.

 

I have 870 games in IJN destroyers; doesn't change how I feel about Benson.

 

I have more fun with Mutsuki; which, in other player's opinions, is also an utter piece of trash. I can make it work though, so to me it isn't.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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The Kidd neutralizes the way CVs can shut down a DD completely by parking a plane overhead while shells melt it.  That's huge.  I'm a Kidd fan.

Edited by nhf

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3 hours ago, DeadMeat_015 said:

lol the T7 CV is going to get dragged into lots of T10 matches cause thats how T8 works

you should also realized that CV MM is first priority in matchmaking algorithm.

that's why you see 455, 566, 677, 788, 91010 type of division
CV MM will forced 2 other ship to sit in MM of CV, thus 2 ships that divisioned with will get +1/-2 MM
unless there are someone who has same idea and targeted a same tier as you, then enjoy +3 MM if you are unlucky

it's MM exploitation that very practical and disgusting when it worked

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