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Goliath654

What happened to the honor among CV's

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I was brought up in the CV world believing that the CV snipe is a Major no no due to multiple reasons.

1: You dont have the striking power generally to kill the other CV.

2: If you dont kill them you potentially wasted a strike that could help your team.

3: It hinders game play.

I've always been taught this personally, but I've noticed that it has been happening more and more lately especially at tier VIII or less. I can see some strategic reasons to CV snipe however I've never had it work on me unless they commit the whole game to killing me.

What is the consensus? Im not a CV main but this wasn't happening to me till recently, did I miss a video or something?

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2 minutes ago, Goliath654 said:

I was brought up in the CV world believing that the CV snipe is a Major no no due to multiple reasons.

1: You dont have the striking power generally to kill the other CV.

2: If you dont kill them you potentially wasted a strike that could help your team.

3: It hinders game play.

I've always been taught this personally, but I've noticed that it has been happening more and more lately especially at tier VIII or less. I can see some strategic reasons to CV snipe however I've never had it work on me unless they commit the whole game to killing me.

What is the consensus? Im not a CV main but this wasn't happening to me till recently, did I miss a video or something?

 

CV sniping pseudo-disappearing never had anything to do with honor. It had to do with CVs gaining Defensive Fire at Tier 8, and so sniping ceased being useful 95% of the time. You're not going to take them down in one strike anymore, and you might not even take them down in 2 now. If I knew my opponent wouldn't use DF or do anything else to attempt to hinder my snipe, I'd do it 100% of the time every time. But that's a silly assumption to make, and so it just isn't worth the effort anymore.

 

If someone can get away with it in low tiers, more power to them. But they'd better be certain they're taking them down in one run, and that the run doesn't involve sending planes to the side border of the map, then down to the opposing corner of the map, then across the top or bottom randomly searching for a CV you hope is still sitting there. Because spending the first 5 minutes with your planes sneaking around the edge for an unsuccessful snipe is the most useless thing that could be done in a CV, since then you're looking at another 2-3 minutes to reload them and get planes back out. And 8 minutes of not providing anything useful to your team is straight potato.

 

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CV sniping works for low to mid tier matches but i'd agree that its suicidal and likely to not reap much benefits at higher tiers due to the AA creep, DF, and fighters because which CV at this point wouldn't know that one is sniping them if the opposing CV's planes dont appear anywhere in the first 2 minutes unless they're afking. 

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I don't CV snipe, but not because of an unspoken rule or any sorts of honor. I don't snipe because chances are that the snipe Fails, and that would cost me a lot of planes and make me useless for the first half of the game.

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19 minutes ago, Goliath654 said:

I was brought up in the CV world believing that the CV snipe is a Major no no due to multiple reasons.

1: You dont have the striking power generally to kill the other CV.

2: If you dont kill them you potentially wasted a strike that could help your team.

3: It hinders game play.

I've always been taught this personally, but I've noticed that it has been happening more and more lately especially at tier VIII or less. I can see some strategic reasons to CV snipe however I've never had it work on me unless they commit the whole game to killing me.

What is the consensus? Im not a CV main but this wasn't happening to me till recently, did I miss a video or something?

 

Honor &  Chivalry are dead and buried.  Never existed.

 

A CV snipe is very valid Tier VII and below.  Tier VIII+ the CVs get Defensive Fire.

 

A CV snipe is a high risk, high reward ploy and works best the lower in tier you go.  More newbies playing the lower in tier you go and they are more susceptible to the snipe.

 

If it fails, you wasted planes and time.

If it succeeds, you destroy the CV or are 1 more strike away from removing it altogether.  Once gone, you got free reign to do whatever you want.  Your team no longer has to worry about air attacks or planes spotting your DDs and torpedo launches.

 

You ever see what a Kaga can do to a Ranger?  Kaga players snipe Ranger ALL-THE-TIME.

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my main point is that its a waste of time and only makes me stronger/madder lol

in reality was i just taught wrong?

 

 

 

Edited by Goliath654

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28 minutes ago, Goliath654 said:

my main point is that its a waste of time and only makes me stronger/madder lol

in reality was i just taught wrong?

 

 

 


Yeah, you were taught wrong.  From the very start at closed beta, the general idea was if you can CV snipe, you do it.  With the nerfs to strike loadouts it lost some popularity, but was still very effective.  It was only the addition of Defensive Fire that made it unappealing to do. 

Actually the original "no CV snipe" was back when CVs had full strike loadouts, with no fighters.  Some players who weren't confident in their ability to survive a strike would appeal to a sense of "honor" so they could make unopposed strikes on the other team's ships without fear of being deleted.  That was blatantly against the game rules, but it wasn't stomped out fast enough, and there was a period where some CV players would convince the newer players that CV sniping was unsportsmanlike.  Over time the justifications morphed, but the sentiment remained.

Currently CV snipes are a valid tactic below tier 8, albeit very risky, and there is nothing unsportsmanlike about them.  Since CVs are really the only class that can truly counter each other, agreeing to not snipe is like two DDs agreeing not to shoot each other, and only interact by spotting torps.

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The funny thing in reality is carrier jobs were number one to kill the other carrier then they have free reign

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Had a CV in match tell the red CV they should just farm damage and not actively engage each other so they could pad stats.

Red team team killed their CV, ours found himself very alone, for the rest of the game.

If you DO engage in this behavior, OP, I suggest you remain very, very quiet about it, as it is not only against the rules but the rest of your team will, justifiably, hate you.

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Bottom line. Making private reciprocal arrangements not to attack specific enemy ships is not acceptable.

No red gets a free pass.

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:Smile_facepalm: Believe it or not, the objective of the game is to sink enemy ships and win, not  to perpetutate some kind of CV fraternity. 

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Not against the snipe but it is tough to do.  First off my team usually wants me spot first.  So that is what I do.

Where I see a snipe as more effective, you are a Strike Ranger or Strike Lexington (going without fighters), I see going after the other CV as more viable thing to do, to eliminate his fighters from stripping you of attack planes.

Sniping a Saipan I would think is a probably good idea from a Kaga or Hiryu because of the T9 fighters.  

 

Edited by gcangel82

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4 minutes ago, gcangel82 said:

Not against the snipe but it is tough to do.  First off my team usually wants me spot first.  So that is what I do.

Where I see a snipe as more effective, you are a Strike Ranger or Strike Lexington (going without fighters), I see going after the other CV as more viable thing to do, to eliminate his fighters from stripping you of attack planes.

Sniping a Saipan I would think is a probably good idea from a Kaga or Hiryu because of the T9 fighters.  

 

 

The drawback is that you'll have to plan for at least 2 strikes to kill the Saipan. That's at least 3-4 minutes per strike, not counting arming time. You'll have to be border hugging most of the time. High risk High reward startegy.  

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3 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

 

The drawback is that you'll have to plan for at least 2 strikes to kill the Saipan. That's at least 3-4 minutes per strike, not counting arming time. You'll have to be border hugging most of the time. High risk High reward startegy.  

Oh I agree, it is high risk high reward.  Hiryu has the best chance to take a Saipan out in 1 strike if it is going to happen.  Not something I would normally do in randoms, more of a ranked battle strategy.  Just stating from a ship perspective.

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3 hours ago, Goliath654 said:

I was brought up in the CV world believing that the CV snipe is a Major no no due to multiple reasons.

1: You dont have the striking power generally to kill the other CV.

2: If you dont kill them you potentially wasted a strike that could help your team.

3: It hinders game play.

I've always been taught this personally, but I've noticed that it has been happening more and more lately especially at tier VIII or less. I can see some strategic reasons to CV snipe however I've never had it work on me unless they commit the whole game to killing me.

What is the consensus? Im not a CV main but this wasn't happening to me till recently, did I miss a video or something?

1) IJN can pull it off with a bit of luck with Tier V and more reliably from Tier VI. Zuiho at Tier V relies on DOT, hit the CV with torps or bombs to hopefully cause fire or flooding, wait until DRP is used, then hit with 2nd squad to hopefully finish them off. The same tactic is more reliable with Ryojo's 122 package, as 8 bombs are guaranteed to start 1-2 fires with manual aiming, followed by 8 torps to get DOT flooding damage. US can do it, but you're running without any fighter support with Bogue's 012 package, and Independence's 111 package is solid, but if you're running a US CV with fighters sniping isn't generally a priority. Most of the snipes I've seen/experienced were IJN CV's sniping US Cv's to negate US CV's air superiority. 

2) This is my main reason for not doing it. By the time your squadrons fly all the way around the edge of the map and hit the CV you could have twice launched and struck against closer targets. You're also running the risk that your squads will be spotted and shot down so far away that you have no hope of recalling them back above friendly AA. You're committing a significant investment into a high risk, high reward strategy that can backfire and disadvantage you and your team for the rest of the match.

3) You can't say it hinders gameplay. It's just a different way of playing. I won't deliberately target the other CV unless there's no better target available, or unless they're running an air superiority package and it's annoying me and I figure I'm so effectively locked down that I might as well try to snipe.

3 hours ago, Cruiser_Noshiro said:

This "Honour" is against the game rules.

CV truces are against the rules. Unspoken agreements can't be policed.

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Quote

CV truces are against the rules. Unspoken agreements can't be policed.

 

 

Also known as "Honor amongst thieves" 

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5 minutes ago, HyperFish said:

1) IJN can pull it off with a bit of luck with Tier V and more reliably from Tier VI. Zuiho at Tier V relies on DOT, hit the CV with torps or bombs to hopefully cause fire or flooding, wait until DRP is used, then hit with 2nd squad to hopefully finish them off. The same tactic is more reliable with Ryojo's 122 package, as 8 bombs are guaranteed to start 1-2 fires with manual aiming, followed by 8 torps to get DOT flooding damage. US can do it, but you're running without any fighter support with Bogue's 012 package, and Independence's 111 package is solid, but if you're running a US CV with fighters sniping isn't generally a priority. Most of the snipes I've seen/experienced were IJN CV's sniping US Cv's to negate US CV's air superiority. 

2) This is my main reason for not doing it. By the time your squadrons fly all the way around the edge of the map and hit the CV you could have twice launched and struck against closer targets. You're also running the risk that your squads will be spotted and shot down so far away that you have no hope of recalling them back above friendly AA. You're committing a significant investment into a high risk, high reward strategy that can backfire and disadvantage you and your team for the rest of the match.

3) You can't say it hinders gameplay. It's just a different way of playing. I won't deliberately target the other CV unless there's no better target available, or unless they're running an air superiority package and it's annoying me and I figure I'm so effectively locked down that I might as well try to snipe.

CV truces are against the rules. Unspoken agreements can't be policed.

 

Agreed on most counts, though the assumption by many CV players that it won't happen often leads to openings for it when it does. I personally think WG should have left it as a viable option at all tiers as having to work with your fleet as a team by seeking escorts if you didn't want to keep a CAP up was only a better game for everyone.

 

However, I would disagree that unspoken agreements can't be policed. If it appears the allied CV isn't attempting to oppose the enemy CV, a report can be filed and the situation judged by a GM. If it does seem that any sort of agreement was in effect, both CVs can be assessed a strike against them, under the requirement that players must give an honest effort to defeat the opposing players. This is the same as guild members colluding out of game on opposite teams.

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Everything is about return on investment. Sending planes around the edge of the map to try to snipe a ship you haven't even spotted yet is almost always a bad investment. I have killed CVs early, plenty of times, but I never skirt the edge of the map. If when scouting the enemy, I locate the CV, and there's no significant AA protection, then I'm going to try to sink that CV. Otherwise, I do my best to protect the fleet and get another clear skies.

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11 minutes ago, Jakob_Knight said:

 

Agreed on most counts, though the assumption by many CV players that it won't happen often leads to openings for it when it does. I personally think WG should have left it as a viable option at all tiers as having to work with your fleet as a team by seeking escorts if you didn't want to keep a CAP up was only a better game for everyone.

 

However, I would disagree that unspoken agreements can't be policed. If it appears the allied CV isn't attempting to oppose the enemy CV, a report can be filed and the situation judged by a GM. If it does seem that any sort of agreement was in effect, both CVs can be assessed a strike against them, under the requirement that players must give an honest effort to defeat the opposing players. This is the same as guild members colluding out of game on opposite teams.

I've been sniped before, and usually my own fault. I get so caught up early game in spotting and lining up for that first strike that sometimes I don't realize that I haven't seen any Red planes, and am too late pulling my fighters back. It's also a good reason to start moving your CV when the game starts. I've also successfully sniped other CV's who have annoyed me, either because they're a little too good at covering their fleet with their fighters, or they're running a Saipan. I'll only attempt a snipe in an IJN CV though. US CV's are better able to protect themselves, and I'd rather be hitting hard and often then going on a scenic flight across the map.

You can load a report regarding an "unspoken agreement", but unless one of the CV drivers comes out in chat and says something you'll have as much chance of it being policed as the guy in yesterdays match who asked everyone to report the CL driver on his team because he didn't use his torps. Chances are in the early/mid game there are better targets closer, which are more economical to hit factoring flight time and rearming, than the red CV that is hiding behind an island at the back of the map. I've often ignore the enemy CV until the end of the match for one reason or another, none of which has to do with an unspoken truce but would appear to be that way to an observer.

15 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

 

Also known as "Honor amongst thieves" 

Which, as the saying goes, there is none of.

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'honor' PAHAHAHAHAHA even as far back as CBT carrier snipe was the go to for the unskilled fools who think it'd actually work and it very very rarely did then, it's just as rare for it to work now. 

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