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Vaitmana

Sad state of dd rewards

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I just had 2 games back to back in Shimakaze, and I though they are nice examples of two games, where one was played towards objectives and dd's role, while the other was just an attempt at having fun and doing some damage.

The first one playing the objective and supporting team:

Spoiler

hwChm7p.jpg

The second one, just launching torps at targets of opportunity:

Spoiler

zDOE3Ue.jpg

Both games are bad by my standard, but the sad part is that the first game is a win with 3 caps (1 solo) and 53k silver lost, while the second is a loss with no kills/caps, just more damage done and only 32k silver lost. It is more profitable and fun to disregard objectives and your team as a dd. Especially with the abundance of planes and radars that stand between you and objectives.

Edited by Vaitmana
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1 minute ago, Vaitmana said:

I just had 2 games back to back in Shimakaze, and I though they are nice examples of two games, where one was played towards objectives and dd's role, while the other was just an attempt at having fun and doing some damage.

The first one playing the objective and supporting team:

  Reveal hidden contents

hwChm7p.jpg

The second one, just launching torps at targets of opportunity:

  Reveal hidden contents

zDOE3Ue.jpg

The sad part is that the first game is a win with 3 caps (1 solo) and 53k silver lost, while the second is a loss with no kills/caps, just more damage done and only 32k silver lost. It is more profitable and fun to disregard objectives and your team as a dd. Especially with the abundance of planes and radars that stand between you and objectives.

 

That's always been the basic paradox of this game. The drivers for the game economy and advancement, are in direct contradiction with team play....:Smile_amazed:

The grind becomes everything, and it's easier to grind if you simply ignore team play, and go score.....

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6 minutes ago, Vaitmana said:

I just had 2 games back to back in Shimakaze, and I though they are nice examples of two games, where one was played towards objectives and dd's role, while the other was just an attempt at having fun and doing some damage.

The first one playing the objective and supporting team:

  Reveal hidden contents

hwChm7p.jpg

The second one, just launching torps at targets of opportunity:

  Reveal hidden contents

zDOE3Ue.jpg

The sad part is that the first game is a win with 3 caps (1 solo) and 53k silver lost, while the second is a loss with no kills/caps, just more damage done and only 32k silver lost. It is more profitable and fun to disregard objectives and your team as a dd. Especially with the abundance of planes and radars that stand between you and objectives.

The credit and XP rewards are based off % HP taken away from enemy ships. If you do 200k damage mainly to 2 enemy BBs then that’s worth the same as 40k taken away from 2 enemy DDs. Which can lead to results like this:

36AA545F-DD5A-4312-85CF-055030015E70.jpeg

01B9EA3B-20E2-453D-ABD0-0147750FBD00.thumb.jpeg.2d5b6e097ebc67e23bac459df5da93cc.jpeg8A506CDD-C1CD-4B2E-BA55-52E33F389B8D.thumb.jpeg.0824308ab745771441b96caf8481a6b3.jpegCB55F1F4-48B7-48DD-A3E9-1826CD581FB5.thumb.jpeg.77fe076a09ac4d97b8bf53f16e31fc3e.jpeg

I went that entire game without being spotted once. That Grozovoi wasn’t actually AFK, he just died so early on to a torp spread from me that the game thought he was. I also then devastated a Kutuzov in his smoke, and hit a Conqueror pretty hard. Also notice the enemy team had I think 4 Radar ships

 

Edited by FireAndHEspam

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11 minutes ago, FireAndHEspam said:

Also notice the enemy team had I think 4 Radar ships

 

So you either run 20km torps, which can't be true since you got hits, or you run 8k or 12k torps and were very lucky to not get radar'd?

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4 minutes ago, n00bot said:

 

So you either run 20km torps, which can't be true since you got hits, or you run 8k or 12k torps and were very lucky to not get radar'd?

I run the 12km. The trick is to not do anything to immediately provoke their radar, and be in a position to do SOMEthing should they decide to pop it. Oh and I also put 2 fish into the Baltimore and brought him down to ~4k HP so that’s another nice chunk of XP earned. Also got an unassisted base cap after torping the Gro

Edited by FireAndHEspam

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That is another problem specifically with IJN dds that were nerfed too hard (the most by introduction of hydro and the fact that planes spot torpedoes), their performance is extremely luck dependent. You have to get exactly right enemy team and your team, such that you have good potato targets, and potatoes on your team who cannot kill fast, so that you have all the time you need to farm damage with 2 min reload torps.

I am no stranger to profitable games even without high damage:

Spoiler

rCDAvLK.jpg

 

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I run the 20k torps and put myself into positions where they will run perpendicular, becoming a constant menace to the enemy for their entire run. Always fun when you get a hit on someone 17k away by a torpedo that was spotted for the last 10k.

Edited by HazardDrake

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2 hours ago, Vaitmana said:

It is more profitable and fun to disregard objectives and your team as a dd. Especially with the abundance of planes and radars that stand between you and objectives.

The reward system for DDs is appalling. It had been pointed out multiple times and nothing had been done. Spotting, capping, smoking allies net you little or nothing. reward is biased towards damage. Same with WTR.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, PicknChew said:

The reward system for DDs is appalling. It had been pointed out multiple times and nothing had been done. Spotting, capping, smoking allies net you little or nothing. reward is biased towards damage. Same with WTR.

 

 

While true, I think it's hard to quantify smoking up allies as a numerical value. So I don't think there's a reason to be harsh on that. Because hoe is the game going to tell if you indeed prevented damage? There's to many variables. So I think we can give a pass on that.

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1 minute ago, Hanger_18 said:

While true, I think it's hard to quantify smoking up allies as a numerical value. So I don't think there's a reason to be harsh on that. Because hoe is the game going to tell if you indeed prevented damage? There's to many variables. So I think we can give a pass on that.

It is not. WG knows when a ship is in smoke, since we have a different conceal. Also knows when we fire from smoke. So you could be rewarded for damage done from your smoke pretty easily

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I really wish something would be done about IJN DDs.

 

The only thing consistent you can do is spot for the team.

 

Feast or famine...

 

 

Edited by Wulfgarn
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Just now, PicknChew said:

It is not. WG knows when a ship is in smoke, since we have a different conceal. Also knows when we fire from smoke. So you could be rewarded for damage done from your smoke pretty easily

You still aren't getting the full value for saving someone though.so itl never be fully rewarded. It's not like I didn't think of damage...

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Just now, Hanger_18 said:

You still aren't getting the full value for saving someone though.so itl never be fully rewarded. It's not like I didn't think of damage...

well. rewarding damage from smoke would already be a start. Now you are right, saving someone would be harder to evaluate. Likewise a BB shielding a friendly ship (not that it happens a lot) is also nice teamplay that goes unrewarded. 

 

I am happy to see some aspect of the gameplay not rewarded. But currently, none of the DD play is.

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Sad state of Shima drivers is more likely. I can't say how many times I watch a shima get killed by a battleship even with no radar ships/ enemy DDs around. 

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2 minutes ago, Kevik70 said:

Sad state of Shima drivers is more likely. I can't say how many times I watch a shima get killed by a battleship even with no radar ships/ enemy DDs around. 

Battleships are perfectly balanced comrade!  A BB salvo should be able to knock off 80 percent of a DDs health every thirty or less seconds inside of 10km.  A DD on the other hand will require most of his entire torpedo salvo to make contact to have the same kind of luck.  Given detection and other information; I would be curious to see the DD to BB devastating strike statistics when compared to the BB on DD devastating strikes by tier.  At some point, I would imagine that rock gets sharp edges and smashes scissors and shreds paper.

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1 minute ago, KongoPride said:

Battleships are perfectly balanced comrade!  A BB salvo should be able to knock off 80 percent of a DDs health every thirty or less seconds inside of 10km.  A DD on the other hand will require most of his entire torpedo salvo to make contact to have the same kind of luck.  Given detection and other information; I would be curious to see the DD to BB devastating strike statistics when compared to the BB on DD devastating strikes by tier.  At some point, I would imagine that rock gets sharp edges and smashes scissors and shreds paper.

That is a separate issue, my complaint was about why Shimas got spotted in the first place when they have some of the best detection in the game. Stealth is key for landing torpedo salvos.

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17 minutes ago, KongoPride said:

At some point, I would imagine that rock gets sharp edges and smashes scissors and shreds paper.

Hence BBs are not balanced

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The shima is rarely in a match where is has the best concealment of other dds in the game so will get detected by other dds before it can detect them and then does not have the firepower to knife with them once it does spot them back unlike the gearing which has the same concealment but can knife back. So the simha is likely going to lose to the dd let a lone a BB shell. even if the shima gets his torps off on the BB he was after the DD will likely kill him, but in a Gearing it can deal with both.

 

Edited by Final8ty

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5 minutes ago, Final8ty said:

The shima is rarely in a match where is has the best concealment of other dds in the game so will get detected by other dds before it can detect them and then does not have the firepower to knife with them once it does spot them back unlike the gearing which has the same concealment but can knife back. So the simha is likely going to lose to the dd let a lone a BB shell. even if the shima gets his torps off on the BB he was after the DD will likely kill him, but in a Gearing it can deal with both.

mostly true, but tbh, a detected Gearing is a dead gearing these days. They take ridiculous AP damage and cannot easily get away. T10 has also become a radar feast, it is not uncommon to be facing 3+ radars.

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33 minutes ago, Kevik70 said:

That is a separate issue, my complaint was about why Shimas got spotted in the first place when they have some of the best detection in the game. Stealth is key for landing torpedo salvos.

Exactly. That is why spotters, fighters, CV aircraft, hydro, radar, RPF and enemy DDs/CAs all affect the low rate of torpedo hits. A large % of the time torpedo detection rates don't really matter, as everyone on the map has already seen the torps on many occasions before the torpedo detection rate comes into play. And when torpedoes actually hit the target, remember to throw in the % reduction for any torpedo armour belts. A Shima could be (although unlikely that one of the list above won't see them) be concealed all game and still do very little damage. 

 

It is extremely difficult for any ship to go into a cap and take/hold it without the support of it's team. Most DDs (although their torpedoes can cause some of the biggest damage in game) prop up the bottom of each tier for damage:

I wish WG would look at the mechanics and find a way for the 6-10% average torpedo hit rate to rise to 8-12%, modify some of the torpedo belt armour values assisting the damage DD do - Last time I looked, a tier VII DD had the opportunity to run into 11  different radar ships and 41 ships with hydro. It's a war game, let all ships have equal chance to get in, mix it up and cause damage (dependent on their ship/playstyle) and attribute the taking/holding objectives to the whole team (as in most cases it is a team effort).

The above observations aside, I do think the game is reasonably balanced and doesn't need massive changes - most mistakes can be put down to human error, but then again when looking at the statistics they also include the top players results as well.

 

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4 hours ago, awiggin said:

That's always been the basic paradox of this game. The drivers for the game economy and advancement, are in direct contradiction with team play....:Smile_amazed:

The grind becomes everything, and it's easier to grind if you simply ignore team play, and go score.....

 

Because of this and that, (reasons,) I'm nearly at 600 million credits, and nearly 4 million fxp, (approx 7 mil unconverted sxp.)

 

I pretty much don't grind any more; haven't seen any point to doing so. Because of that my play is more survival-based and team-play oriented; but I probably am an exception to rule of grind-selfishness...

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7 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

...

The above observations aside, I do think the game is reasonably balanced and doesn't need massive changes - most mistakes can be put down to human error, but then again when looking at the statistics they also include the top players results as well.

I agree with you for the majority of the post. However I do believe that the game is not balanced. WG seems to spend a lot of time adjusting a ship so that it fall in line with the other ships in its class. However, the classes balance is simply not there.

cruisers have no chance against BBs

DDs have no chance against cruisers

DDs cannot land torps on BBs for the reasons you mentioned. And even with a 8-12% hit rate, DDs would still barely be doing enough damage to kill BBs.

 

If you could make up a 12 man team, you might as well go with 11 BBs and an AS CV.

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1 hour ago, Kevik70 said:

That is a separate issue, my complaint was about why Shimas got spotted in the first place when they have some of the best detection in the game. Stealth is key for landing torpedo salvos.

Missouri; 2 in 1 combo

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14 minutes ago, PicknChew said:

I agree with you for the majority of the post. However I do believe that the game is not balanced. WG seems to spend a lot of time adjusting a ship so that it fall in line with the other ships in its class. However, the classes balance is simply not there.

cruisers have no chance against BBs

DDs have no chance against cruisers

DDs cannot land torps on BBs for the reasons you mentioned. And even with a 8-12% hit rate, DDs would still barely be doing enough damage to kill BBs.

 

If you could make up a 12 man team, you might as well go with 11 BBs and an AS CV.

Got to be quick as I'm going off to work and they don't allow phones.

In a game with so much variety I feel the balance is pretty good and there are only real problems with certain ships, of certain nations, across all types.

Your 'don't stand a chance' quotes are not true in the majority of cases as a good player, playing the ship to its strengths, does have a chance. You just have to play a particular way with each type of ship to reap the rewards.

 

Got to go (late already! lol). :Smile_honoring:

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