Another poll result: Premium CV Thread.

[Slntreaper]

Original thread can be found here: https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/142121-premium-cv-poll/

Original poll can be found here: https://goo.gl/forms/2Ci4shG4fdWEUp7A3

 

Disclaimer

The following results are the results of a player-run poll distributed among the NA forums, Asia forums, and r/worldofwarships.  The results are not endorsed by any other party except for myself, including Wargaming, Reddit, or any of the developers.  As this was a player run poll, I open up my results to any analysis that any players, developers, and/or outside observers would like to make.  I expect to be accused of vote manipulation.  These results are not guaranteed to influence Wargaming in any way.  i am also not an AP Stats student.  If you spot an incorrect assumption, please show mercy.  Thank you.

 

Introduction and Methodology.

 

The following results below are the results of the poll linked above by myself.  This poll ran from 8 Nov 2017 to 12 Nov 2017.  The poll collected 141 responses during this time.  I will be using data from only this poll to determine which Premium CV is seen as the most broken.  Results were compiled into Excel and were formed into charts.  This poll's analysis will be much lighter than last time because the poll was much simpler and shorter.  

 

Key Terms

Broken: means the way it works is inherently toxic and needs an overhaul.

 

Data Results

Do note the data can be accessed by the link @ https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSesRA8iu8cYpsi6hs6Uwk44JqQ-WvE5nWTdho7ddZcNlxDMrQ/viewanalytics

 

Analysis

With these numbers open, we can begin the analysis.  In the first chart, 28% of those who responded owns a Saipan.  About the same amount of people don't own a Saipan.  The fact that 28% of people own a Saipan makes the poll unbiased enough because it uses results from both those who do and those who don't own a Saipan.  However, this number isn't very controversial on its own.  

 

When we get to the second chart, we can see that 57% of those who participated believe the Saipan is the most broken premium CV.  The large majority makes it impossible to dispute that the Saipan is clearly seen as the most broken CV.  We can sit around all day and discuss that, but moving on we see that the Graf Zeppelin is the second most broken CV in the eyes of the community.  However, there are only 24% who believe it is broken, making the Saipan the clear winner.  

 

Conclusion

The combination of the Saipan being the most owned and the most broken CV in the eyes of the community is not a coincidence.  In fact, people probably bought the Saipan because it is able to abuse strafe mechanics.  There are two conclusions that one can glean walking away from this one.  First, that the Saipan is in fact the most broken CV in the eyes of the community.  Second, that I won't have to make a separate poll and analysis on why the Saipan is broken because it was already done here.  Thank you to all that participated.  Feel free to pick apart my results and show everyone why my methodology is wrong.  

[Tachnechdorus]

I never looked at it that way , great Information. I thank you for all that work you put into it.......

[crzyhawk]

If Saipan is so broken, why does Kaga perform better?  The fact is, CV drivers just hate Saipans ruining their fun.

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

note, only 7% of respondents actually own a GZ, yet 24% or respondents think it is broken, purely on the basis of its reputation, rather than player experience. The opposite is true of Saipan, where the perception that it is broken is solidly based upon player experience!

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

1 minute ago, crzyhawk said:

If Saipan is so broken, why does Kaga perform better?  The fact is, CV drivers just hate Saipans ruining their fun.

You are confusing Broken with OP, a nuance the author of the survey has carefully explained.

[crzyhawk]

No, I am not.  If the ship isn't the best performing in tier, it is not broken.

[Yurobeat]

Probably get a Saipan at some point

[skull_122_steel]

1 hour ago, crzyhawk said:

No, I am not.  If the ship isn't the best performing in tier, it is not broken.

it can straf away for free if that isn't broken I dont no what is it ignores one of the mechanics of the game 

[Slntreaper]

2 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

If Saipan is so broken, why does Kaga perform better?  The fact is, CV drivers just hate Saipans ruining their fun.

Broken is not OP.  OP simply means that the raw damage/reload/hp stats are overtuned, and this can be fixed with a simple readjustment of that number.  

2 hours ago, nuttybiscuit said:

note, only 7% of respondents actually own a GZ, yet 24% or respondents think it is broken, purely on the basis of its reputation, rather than player experience. The opposite is true of Saipan, where the perception that it is broken is solidly based upon player experience!

We don't know for sure, since for all we know the 60ish % that answered don't own a Saipan.  Still there is a good chance that at least some Saipan drivers think it's OP.  

2 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

No, I am not.  If the ship isn't the best performing in tier, it is not broken.

Broken means the mechanic is broken.  OP means that it's got strong numbers.  A ship can be broken without being the best in the tier.  You confuse the two.

[crzyhawk]

No, I really don't.  Broken means it doesn't work.  Saipan works just fine.  The problem with it, is that CV players, particularly strike CV players dislike it.  Disliking something does not make it broken.  For all the hate Saipan brings, it's not broken at all.  It does precisely what it is intended to do; it's air dominance comes at the price of being a weak striker.  Something that's broken would be completely uncounterable.

The only thing that Saipan does it piss CV players off.  That doesn't make it broken.

[Dianeces]

11 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

No, I really don't.  Broken means it doesn't work.  Saipan works just fine.  The problem with it, is that CV players, particularly strike CV players dislike it.  Disliking something does not make it broken.  For all the hate Saipan brings, it's not broken at all.  It does precisely what it is intended to do; it's air dominance comes at the price of being a weak striker.  Something that's broken would be completely uncounterable.

The only thing that Saipan does it piss CV players off.  That doesn't make it broken.

Pick one:

>Weak strikes

>Does more average damage than every other tier seven except Kaga, King George V, and Nelson

 

The amazing thing about Saipan's average damage is that it is being dragged down by people playing the 3/1 loadout. It may not be the monster that the Kaga is, but it is by no means weak. The Nikolai is the only ship in the game that has a better win rate in the past two weeks, not the Flint, not the Black, not the Belfast nor the Kutuzov. It is beating two ships that were deemed too OP to continue selling.

[crzyhawk]

There we go again, throwing that word around.  Saipan is not broken, just because CV players dislike playing against it.  The fact is, Saipan is the /only/ AS ship outside of the Bogue that can do it's job.  The typical refrain from CV strike players is that the bombers will always get through, therefore AS is stupid.  They don't make those claims about Saipan.  It works exactly as advertised.  It strikes hard when set up for strike, and it owns the sky when set up for that.  It works precisely how it was intended to work.

I never said it was weak, nor did I ever argue that it was not overpowered.  What it's not, is BROKEN it functions exactly as it was intended to.  That is not broken.

[Dianeces]

10 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

There we go again, throwing that word around.  Saipan is not broken, just because CV players dislike playing against it.  The fact is, Saipan is the /only/ AS ship outside of the Bogue that can do it's job.  The typical refrain from CV strike players is that the bombers will always get through, therefore AS is stupid.  They don't make those claims about Saipan.  It works exactly as advertised.  It strikes hard when set up for strike, and it owns the sky when set up for that.  It works precisely how it was intended to work.

I never said it was weak, nor did I ever argue that it was not overpowered.  What it's not, is BROKEN it functions exactly as it was intended to.  That is not broken.

 

Given that you have all of one CV game under your belt, I'm not entirely convinced that you are qualified to make that assessment.

[HyperFish]

10 minutes ago, Dianeces said:

27 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

The typical refrain from CV strike players is that the bombers will always get through, therefore AS is stupid.  They don't make those claims about Saipan.  It works exactly as advertised.  It strikes hard when set up for strike, and it owns the sky when set up for that.  It works precisely how it was intended to work.

I never said it was weak, nor did I ever argue that it was not overpowered.  What it's not, is BROKEN it functions exactly as it was intended to.  That is not broken.

 

Given that you have all of one CV game under your belt, I'm not entirely convinced that you are qualified to make that assessment.

I have many more CV games under my belt, and can confirm that crzyhawk's assessment is essentially correct.

US CV vs US CV: An AS CV will tend to equal or outperform a Strike CV. Although the Strike CV has more damage potential, the majority of the bomb/torp squads are hard countered against a fighter squad, and the overlap is countered by the AS CV still having a bomb squad. The fighters are also better scouts, and while the Strike CV can scout and spot with their t/b squads, it means they're not refuelling and returning to damage the enemy. AS vs AS is a mugs game, providing limited to no benefit to either team or to the players.

US CV vs IJN CV: An AS CV will underperform against IJN Strike. The bomb squads will always get through, and the higher speeds of the IJN a/craft make fighter lockdown much harder to achieve. IJN CVs are also better at the early game snipe if the US CV has fighters too far out, and if the US CV has fighters close by to avoid the snipe the rest of the fleet are unprotected against nimble hit and run tactics from the IJN squads. A US AS CV will dominate an IJN Strike CV.

Saipan is a hard counter to IJN and US Strike setups. They have more ability to dominate the air than both IJN and US CV's, and less ability to cause actual damage to the enemy team. This is what it was designed to do. They are OP against other CV's, but UP against everything else, and you could argue that their sole role of negating the striking power of the other CV yet being unable to defend itself or cause damage to other ships on the red team make it a liability.

Take the DD like for example. Originally you had IJN Torp boats and US Gun boats. Out comes the Ruskie line, and you have DDs that are more gun boaty than the US line. All of a sudden, the US line is now the middle ground. Saipan did the same to the US CV line. Now I'm seeing more and more US CVs playing balanced loads, like Bogue 110 or Indy 111. They're probably having more fun too.

Saipan is not broken. She is a Troll a bully and OP towards other CVs, but working as intended.

6 hours ago, Slntreaper said:

This poll ran from 8 Nov 2017 to 12 Nov 2017.  The poll collected 141 responses during this time.  I will be using data from only this poll to determine which Premium CV is seen as the most broken. 

I'm not going to accuse you of fixing the results as I'm convinced you probably wouldn't, but I am going to challenge your methodology.

1) The poll was open for 4 days across two servers and reddit. You had 141 responses. How many people were playing during that time? Your poll response is less than 1% of the people playing the game. Any result is within a statistical margin of error.

2) The people that have voted in the poll are the kind of people that vote in polls. Unless you've checked everyone who votes to make sure they own and have played what they said they have, you're results are open to rigging. Less than 1% of people playing have voted. More than 1% of the users on this forum are trolls and hate CVs.

3) There was no option for "None are broken". You're asked which is the MOST broken. Your question is leading. In court, that's an objection.

4) You obviously haven't fully clarified the difference between broken and OP. You have people in this thread misunderstanding. I have no doubt that votes you've received are because someone had a bad experience playing AGAINST a ship rather than playing that ship. I understand you tried, but it didn't work. I got it. Others got it. Others didn't. The question wasn't dumbed down enough.

I would like to say thanks for putting time and effort into an argument rather than just an opinion, and having some facts to back it up. Refreshing.

 

[Slntreaper]

3 hours ago, HyperFish said:

I have many more CV games under my belt, and can confirm that crzyhawk's assessment is essentially correct.

US CV vs US CV: An AS CV will tend to equal or outperform a Strike CV. Although the Strike CV has more damage potential, the majority of the bomb/torp squads are hard countered against a fighter squad, and the overlap is countered by the AS CV still having a bomb squad. The fighters are also better scouts, and while the Strike CV can scout and spot with their t/b squads, it means they're not refuelling and returning to damage the enemy. AS vs AS is a mugs game, providing limited to no benefit to either team or to the players.

US CV vs IJN CV: An AS CV will underperform against IJN Strike. The bomb squads will always get through, and the higher speeds of the IJN a/craft make fighter lockdown much harder to achieve. IJN CVs are also better at the early game snipe if the US CV has fighters too far out, and if the US CV has fighters close by to avoid the snipe the rest of the fleet are unprotected against nimble hit and run tactics from the IJN squads. A US AS CV will dominate an IJN Strike CV.

Saipan is a hard counter to IJN and US Strike setups. They have more ability to dominate the air than both IJN and US CV's, and less ability to cause actual damage to the enemy team. This is what it was designed to do. They are OP against other CV's, but UP against everything else, and you could argue that their sole role of negating the striking power of the other CV yet being unable to defend itself or cause damage to other ships on the red team make it a liability.

Take the DD like for example. Originally you had IJN Torp boats and US Gun boats. Out comes the Ruskie line, and you have DDs that are more gun boaty than the US line. All of a sudden, the US line is now the middle ground. Saipan did the same to the US CV line. Now I'm seeing more and more US CVs playing balanced loads, like Bogue 110 or Indy 111. They're probably having more fun too.

Saipan is not broken. She is a Troll a bully and OP towards other CVs, but working as intended.

I'm not going to accuse you of fixing the results as I'm convinced you probably wouldn't, but I am going to challenge your methodology.

1) The poll was open for 4 days across two servers and reddit. You had 141 responses. How many people were playing during that time? Your poll response is less than 1% of the people playing the game. Any result is within a statistical margin of error.

2) The people that have voted in the poll are the kind of people that vote in polls. Unless you've checked everyone who votes to make sure they own and have played what they said they have, you're results are open to rigging. Less than 1% of people playing have voted. More than 1% of the users on this forum are trolls and hate CVs.

3) There was no option for "None are broken". You're asked which is the MOST broken. Your question is leading. In court, that's an objection.

4) You obviously haven't fully clarified the difference between broken and OP. You have people in this thread misunderstanding. I have no doubt that votes you've received are because someone had a bad experience playing AGAINST a ship rather than playing that ship. I understand you tried, but it didn't work. I got it. Others got it. Others didn't. The question wasn't dumbed down enough.

I would like to say thanks for putting time and effort into an argument rather than just an opinion, and having some facts to back it up. Refreshing.

 

About your AS outperforming strike, it depends heavily on tier.  Bogue AS will outperform Zuiho strike, but when you look at Hak vs Midway the tables are turned.  

Broken is used in the context that it is inherently toxic.  I have clarified this multiple times in this thread, the original thread, and the original poll.  

1. I can't reach the entirety of the playerbase.  This is as good as it gets.  If you have a better idea, tell me, because this is the best I can think of.

2. I can't control that, I can't make sure that each responder has what they say they have.  It's simply impossible.

3. We're rollin' with the assumption that there is at least one Prem CV that is broken.  Don't tell me that all of them are fine, I've seen many threads decrying how broken the Enterprise, Kaga, Graf Zep, and Saipan are.  

4. Read the poll description, read my answer in the first thread, and read my clarification in this thread.  

[cometguy]

5 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

No, I really don't.  Broken means it doesn't work.  Saipan works just fine.  The problem with it, is that CV players, particularly strike CV players dislike it.  Disliking something does not make it broken.  For all the hate Saipan brings, it's not broken at all.  It does precisely what it is intended to do; it's air dominance comes at the price of being a weak striker.  Something that's broken would be completely uncounterable.

The only thing that Saipan does it piss CV players off.  That doesn't make it broken.

2 week solo win rate, Saipan has the highest. Kills 50% more planes than the next best CV at t7, does 79% of the damage Kaga does and 113% of damage the Hiryu does. Kaga is OP, but needs divisions to be broken. Saipan is broken regardless of circumstance.

[HyperFish]

8 hours ago, Slntreaper said:

About your AS outperforming strike, it depends heavily on tier.  Bogue AS will outperform Zuiho strike, but when you look at Hak vs Midway the tables are turned.  

Broken is used in the context that it is inherently toxic.  I have clarified this multiple times in this thread, the original thread, and the original poll.  

1. I can't reach the entirety of the playerbase.  This is as good as it gets.  If you have a better idea, tell me, because this is the best I can think of.

2. I can't control that, I can't make sure that each responder has what they say they have.  It's simply impossible.

3. We're rollin' with the assumption that there is at least one Prem CV that is broken.  Don't tell me that all of them are fine, I've seen many threads decrying how broken the Enterprise, Kaga, Graf Zep, and Saipan are.  

4. Read the poll description, read my answer in the first thread, and read my clarification in this thread.  

Please don't take it personally.

Bogue AS has the same problem all US CVs have. Zuiho strike has 121, Bogue AS 201. 4 squads to 3, and 3 damage dealing squads vs 1 damage dealing squad. 3 damage dealing squads countered by only 2 fighter squads meaning a squad will always get through. Smaller squads mean faster rearms. Drag a bogues fighters to the far end of the map and let them take out your 4 db planes. The squad is dead, and you'll have a new squad launched and in the air before their fighters are back in the mix.

Naturally I'm assuming captains being equal. I've been in Zuihos that have been dominated by AS bogues, and then I've dominated zuihos running strike in the balanced 110 Bogue.

I understand your meaning of broken. The problem is that I think others have not. The fact you've had to clarify it in the poll, and now multiple times in this thread, indicates that many others haven't. They're calling Saipan broken because she is an AS powerhouse. But that's her role. That's not broken. It's like calling Des Moine broken because of her powerful AA. It's not broken. It's trollishly OP.

I also see threads about how broken AP overpens against DDs are, about how broken radar is. How broken HE firespam is. Once you start assuming that something has to be broken, you'll have to start accepting that everything may be.

I understand you did the best you could think of, and I haven't come up with a better idea unless you can get WG to add a survey after every premium CV game, but just because you haven't got a better idea doesn't mean that your stats are accurate, relevant or haven't been subject to abuse. I appreciate you've tried to use stats, and I wish more people would do that in these discussions, but the low volume of responses makes it largely irrelevant. Remember how the polls had Clinton to win the US election?

A Saipan on the enemy team is toxic to my strike setups. I don't like to see them, but all it usually means is that I'm made useless for the game. If I'm lucky it'll be spotted and sunk, and I can wreak some havoc late game. If not, we've nulled each other out. They stop me from striking their side, and Saipan itself is only a minimal risk to the surface ships on my team during the match. A Des Moine, or any US BB is toxic to my bombers. Anything with Radar is toxic to my DDs. HE spam is toxic to my BBs. It can't mean everything is broken. if just means everything has a hard counter.

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

8 hours ago, cometguy said:

2 week solo win rate, Saipan has the highest. Kills 50% more planes than the next best CV at t7, does 79% of the damage Kaga does and 113% of damage the Hiryu does. Kaga is OP, but needs divisions to be broken. Saipan is broken regardless of circumstance.

There has been talk of changes to MM to prevent divisioned CV players being matched against solo CV players (and vice versa) which would make a lot of sense at tier7 and below where CV population is healthy.

[Madwolf05]

This totally negates the fact the Saipan didn't have the strafe out mechanics for longer than it has had them.

 

The Saipan is most owned because it's been out twice as long and is a viabke ship among a line of dumpster fires.

 

Kaga on the other hand has been out just a few months and has equal ownership to the Saipan. If we considered time a factor the Kaga would be the most popular CV by quite a lot, which would also mean that the results of the Saipan being broken are skewed because it is the only ship that can best the Kaga, but it still won't beat it in damage. 

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

9 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

This totally negates the fact the Saipan didn't have the strafe out mechanics for longer than it has had them.

 

The Saipan is most owned because it's been out twice as long and is a viabke ship among a line of dumpster fires.

 

Kaga on the other hand has been out just a few months and has equal ownership to the Saipan. If we considered time a factor the Kaga would be the most popular CV by quite a lot, which would also mean that the results of the Saipan being broken are skewed because it is the only ship that can best the Kaga, but it still won't beat it in damage. 

I disagree with the argument that Saipan is the only CV that can best a Kaga, In 200 Kaga battles, I have often been beaten by competent (and I guess fully upgraded with 10 pt captain) Ranger (AS)  and Hiryu players in random battles (non divved). For sure, this is anecdotal evidence, but Kaga can be beaten by all three of its potential adversaries. Kaga's strike potential advantage is further mitigated by MM when it sent into tier9 battles. The same is not true of Saipan with its tier 9 planes which are much more resistant to both enemy fighters and enemy AA (DE having no effect on the latter).

[Madwolf05]

You're discounting the fact that Saipan has smaller squads with less HP, on top of a very small hangar size. She uptiers poorly against Tier 9.

 

The Kaga won't have trouble with Ranger after the new update and even when she does now the Ranger's damage output is beyond awful.

 

The Hiryu shouldn't be beating her as the Kaga has more DPS and HP on her fighters with the right fighter skills and modules as a squad. Even then her strike power is superior and she has a larger hangar space.

[anonym_Hf93Jbjm9WjT]

50 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

You're discounting the fact that Saipan has smaller squads with less HP, on top of a very small hangar size. She uptiers poorly against Tier 9.

 

The Kaga won't have trouble with Ranger after the new update and even when she does now the Ranger's damage output is beyond awful.

 

The Hiryu shouldn't be beating her as the Kaga has more DPS and HP on her fighters with the right fighter skills and modules as a squad. Even then her strike power is superior and she has a larger hangar space.

Hiryu can tactically outmanouvre Kaga in strike config, while in AS mode it can shut Kaga down. I have less evidence from personal experience of this as a Kaga player, because quite simply, I almost never see a Hiryu in random battles when playing my Kaga! On the other hand, during my briefer efforts with Hiryu while grinding the IJN line (40 or so battles) I had no problems outplaying Kagas which for some reason, I regularly met (Murphy's law in operation). Fully upgraded and specced Ranger (AS) have zero trouble shutting me down, in fact I suspect there are not a few good players exploiting the poor ranger reputation to take advantage of this, and to player Ranger themselves, with brutal efficiency.