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Red_knight12

5 Ways to fix the Conqueror

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So the Conqueror has been in the game for some time now and still receives regular complaints in game even at the start of a match, I think it's clear that the whole high fire chance, high pen, high damage HE battleship idea isn't going to work. I propose some changes that will make the ship more enjoyable to play with (as a conqueror player it feels too easy to play and even unfair on the enemy when all of your strengths are used effectively)  as well as against (a tight dispersion of HE on a fully angled BB can feel like getting citidelled with the addition of being shoved on a grill).  

 

Here's 5 things to change on the Conqueror that should bring it to a point that can be enjoyable to play with and to play against:

1st - Take away the super heal and replace with a Warspite heal, to account for this increase the deck armour to 38mm

2nd - Reduce the fire chance to Montana/ Yamato-like fire chance (for 419mm and 457mm guns respectively)

3rd - Increase 457mm guns sigma to 2.2 (less guns than yamato deserves slightly better sigma) don't introduce over-match on these guns, high HE alpha should do just fine against bow on targets

4th - due to normal heal (no special consumables) bring a spotter/fighter plane consumable like on lion

5th - If you feel like it take away the 1/4 HE pen rule ( no one would notice but if it makes you feel better)

Due to a limited HP pool maybe a slightly faster cool down for the Warspite heal is in order

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They just nerfed it so we'll have to wait and see if that brings it back in line with the other BBs.

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It doesn't feel like a nerf to me, seems as though knowing exactly when to take damage and when to avoid makes this ship just as over-powered as it was.

You have to play with a little more restraint yes but it doesn't hinder performance at all.

It seems as though the concept as a whole can't be balanced. 

Edited by Red_knight12

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Unpopular opinion: Conqueror doesn't need another nerf.

Its WR over the past two weeks is second lowest, ahead only of Montana, behind Yamato and Grosser Kurfuerst.

Its damage is considerably higher yes, but you have to consider what that damage is: fire damage to other BBs. This can be healed back for 100%. Meanwhile GK, Yamato and Montana do a far larger share of AP damage, which can be healed back for 50% at most, 10% if its citadel damage. Meaning that their damage efficiency is a lot higher. And all this extra damage isn't giving it additional wins, is it.

Personally I'd rather be shot at with Conqueror HE than Yamato AP. I know I can heal back far more. It's useless damage.

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6 minutes ago, Lert said:

Unpopular opinion: Conqueror doesn't need another nerf.

Its WR over the past two weeks is second lowest, ahead only of Montana, behind Yamato and Grosser Kurfuerst.

Its damage is considerably higher yes, but you have to consider what that damage is: fire damage to other BBs. This can be healed back for 100%. Meanwhile GK, Yamato and Montana do a far larger share of AP damage, which can be healed back for 50% at most, 10% if its citadel damage. Meaning that their damage efficiency is a lot higher. And all this extra damage isn't giving it additional wins, is it.

Personally I'd rather be shot at with Conqueror HE than Yamato AP. I know I can heal back far more. It's useless damage.

Yep.  The fire damage is only really effective if she can keep a ship continually burning long enough to kill it, or have the kill secured by an ally.  If the enemy disengages and heals back up, all that damage, effort and time was for not.

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2 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

The fire damage is only really effective if she can keep a ship continually burning long enough to kill it, or have the kill secured by an ally.

Or the target doesn't have a heal. DDs excepting Kidd, possibly T8+ RUDD, T8 CAs excepting Atago / ARP Takao. Mind you, those are at best minority of Conqs targets, and those CAs it would be much better served putting AP through.

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8 minutes ago, Lert said:

Or the target doesn't have a heal. DDs excepting Kidd, T8 CAs excepting Atago / ARP Takao. Mind you, those are at best minority of Conqs targets, and those CAs it would be much better served putting AP through.

The conqueror can fire HE and AP, the AP alone can devastate enemies and rake in high damage scores. It has too many advantages... stealth, heal, short fuse AP, strong HE. fact is it's the only ship I've managed to get a 65% win rate in over nearly 180 games in it.

Bear in mind my Yamato win rate is only 54%, that's a sizeable difference.

Edited by Red_knight12

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Just now, Red_knight12 said:

It has too many advantages

Then why doesn't that show in its WR? If it really has to many advantages, it should show in its WR but it doesn't.

Conq is fine.

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Most people who own it have just Free xp'd their way there without learning the game.

4 minutes ago, Lert said:

Then why doesn't that show in its WR? If it really has to many advantages, it should show in its WR but it doesn't.

Conq is fine.

Most people just Free xp'd their way there without learning the game. 

To genuinely earn a tier ten it takes an average player a fair bit longer than the time that the ship has been available for.

Edited by Red_knight12

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9 minutes ago, Red_knight12 said:

Most people who own it have just Free xp'd their way there without learning the game.

Most people just Free xp'd their way there without learning the game.

No, that's not how this game works.

Most early adopters of a high tier ship, especially tier 10, are very driven, high skilled players. People who don't understand the game and suck at it generally don't have eight hundred thousand free XP lying around, and tend to not have the motivation to spend money on converting that much. That's why early stats are high and later it normalizes downwards. So if anything, its current stats are inflated.

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I know it’s a bit old now, but I feel this thread still provides an in depth and accurate analysis of Conqueror.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

Then why doesn't that show in its WR? If it really has to many advantages, it should show in its WR but it doesn't.

Conq is fine.

For the most part, I agree. 

 

But for the sake of game balance, there should be no reason that a battleship, any battleship should have better concealment than a cruiser of the same tier.

 

Like Belfast, she does have a lot of strengths and only a handful of weaknesses (compared to her counterparts).

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13 minutes ago, Horama said:

I know it’s a bit old now, but I feel this thread still provides an in depth and accurate analysis of Conqueror.

I'd not seen that, thanks for posting. Basically confirms everything I already thought.

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3 hours ago, Lert said:

Unpopular opinion: Conqueror doesn't need another nerf.

Its WR over the past two weeks is second lowest, ahead only of Montana, behind Yamato and Grosser Kurfuerst.

Its damage is considerably higher yes, but you have to consider what that damage is: fire damage to other BBs. This can be healed back for 100%. Meanwhile GK, Yamato and Montana do a far larger share of AP damage, which can be healed back for 50% at most, 10% if its citadel damage. Meaning that their damage efficiency is a lot higher. And all this extra damage isn't giving it additional wins, is it.

Personally I'd rather be shot at with Conqueror HE than Yamato AP. I know I can heal back far more. It's useless damage.

That is such a big miss conception that fire damage is useless damage.

 

Yes you can repair 90% of fire damage. However, there is just so much heal you can spare. The end result is that you have to turn around so you don't sustain excessive fire damage. This forces you further away from battlefield and puts much less threat on enemy ships.

 

Also, RN HE does not only have high fire chance. They have ridiculous alpha and high penetration. You can only heal half of the damage from penetration, doesn't matter if it is from HE or AP.  Yamato's AP can't overmatch most BB's deck armor so it requires very accurate shooting to do damage. However, RN HE can easily do 10k+ damage each salvo. This is way scarier than Yamato AP.

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16 minutes ago, Exciton8964 said:

That is such a big miss conception that fire damage is useless damage.

Yes, I was overemphasizing to make a point.

Fire damage on battleships is still a lot less helpful than citadel damage or the equivalent in AP damage though. Unless you can keep up the pressure and finish the target off. But then you're investing a lot of time into a single target whereas if you were hitting the juicy bits with AP you can spread the love around and keep more ships under pressure.

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As someone who owns a Conq and have faced them a lot, I can tell you there isn't a single time where I would rather face another BB. Conqs main strength comes from HE Spam.... but lets see what it lacks..... it lacks accuracy among other things. The  majority of the damage a Conq player is going to do to you, is heal-able. Any player of equal skill is going to be able to secure kills faster in any other T10 BB, I would even make the argument for some T8 and T9 BBs being better for the team than a Conq. There hasn't been a single time, not a single battle where I was more afraid of a Conq, than say a Monty.... Yamato..... GK....

Kills are far more equatable to win rate than Damage done in a match. 

You can start 2-3 fires on that GK, and rack of 100k+ damage whatever, but in the time it takes for you to sink him, he has the time to sink you and/or other teammates.  When that Montana/Yamato deletes that cruiser instantly with blisteringly accurate AP, their team is now instantly down 1 ship. That 1 ship no longer has any influence on the battle.


So personally the Conq doesn't need a nerf, if anything I would say she needs some QoL tunes that equate to buffs as the end tally. Something like raising the cit a little, and buffing the accuracy of her 419s *a little* in both sigma and dispersion, and moderately for her 457s.

 

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45 minutes ago, Red_knight12 said:

Just a reminder, the point of this thread is to 'change' the Conqueror not to nerf it.

As I said ^

I've found the Conqueror less enjoyable to play with and against in comparison to other tier 10 bbs

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33 minutes ago, Red_knight12 said:

To be fair Conqueror does OK against other tier 10 BBs, maybe more than OK?

Kurfurst 140k+.png

That picture does little for any point. The real question would be is how long did it actually take you to rack up that 141k, and how many average kills and damage is generated by that GK in the same amount of time.

I would rather have any other T10 BB on my team before a Conq

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Just now, zarth12 said:

That picture does little for any point. The real question would be is how long did it actually take you to rack up that 141k, and how many average kills and damage is generated by that GK in the same amount of time.

I would rather have any other T10 BB on my team before a Conq

And that's exactly why the Conqueror needs to be changed, it needs a different more conventional BB role, not a nerf but a change.

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Just now, Red_knight12 said:

And that's exactly why the Conqueror needs to be changed, it needs a different more conventional BB role, not a nerf but a change.



Agreed. I like that it is a BB that profits most from targeting BBs not cruisers, which is how the game should really be balanced for all T10 BBs anyway... especially since DDs are no longer a BB counter (If Paper no longer counters rock, why does Rock need to counter Scissors? so on and so forth)

Lets just make sure any changes do not stray it from that BB preferential target profitability. 

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11 minutes ago, zarth12 said:

That picture does little for any point. The real question would be is how long did it actually take you to rack up that 141k, and how many average kills and damage is generated by that GK in the same amount of time.

I would rather have any other T10 BB on my team before a Conq

Why exactly would you rather any other BB, if you want Conquerors primary focus to be on BBs and this is something it excels in?

I've found the 419mm guns to be more than sufficient for deleting cruisers as well as dealing 40k AP salvos to other BBs.

Edited by Red_knight12

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