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renegadestatuz

Changes to Pan Asian DDs and cruiser

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So they removed the Perth, and now we’re getting an inferior copy?

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8 minutes ago, SkaerKrow said:

So they removed the Perth

FROM SALE.

*sigh*

Perth was not Nikolai'd. She'll be back on sale at some point. Kutuzov and Belfast were Nikolai'd.

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22 minutes ago, Lert said:

FROM SALE.

*sigh*

Perth was not Nikolai'd. She'll be back on sale at some point. Kutuzov and Belfast were Nikolai'd.

Well technically, weren’t they all just removed from sale? They’re all still in the game after all. Fair point though, Perth is intended to return to sale at some point. Sorry if I was spreading misinformation. What I meant to point out is that Perth has been deemed on some level to be unsuitable for sale currently, but WG now seems to be ready to roll out a very comparable ship. 

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1 minute ago, SkaerKrow said:

What I meant to point out is that Perth has been deemed on some level to be unsuitable for sale currently

Only because she has been on sale for a while. They cycle ships in and out all the time. I mean, you wouldn't argue that Atlanta is 'unsuitable for sale', would you? Yet she's been a webstore only ship and an in-game doubloon ship for some time in the past.

I wouldn't read anything in Perth's removal from sale other than the normal cycling in and out of premium ships.

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Huang He is a conflux of all of my pet peeves:

  • Premium which never existed in that configuration
  • Premium with no history as a warship
  • For a 'nation' no one seems to be that interested in
  • Silly basic design of a lightweight 6-gun CL at T6
  • T6 instead of T5 for no reason other than (I guess) the fact that a T6 cruiser sells for $24 instead of $18 and takes the same resources
  • Requires gimmick - specifically smoke which WG had seemed to go to war on with the spotting change and removal of Kutuzov/Belfast

 

I was kinda hoping they'd put the 3rd turret on Gadjah Mada on oriented forward with the blind spot dead astern. 360' is a nice little buff. Of course I'd rather not have had Gadjah Mada be the first JKN class in the game. Here's HMS Kelly showing the forward firing angles of the aft turret, and a sexy bow waverIUgb0j.png

Edited by mofton

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6 minutes ago, mofton said:

Huang He is a conflux of all of my pet peeves:

  • Premium which never existed in that configuration
  • Premium with no history as a warship
  • For a 'nation' no one seems to be that interested in
  • Silly basic design of a lightweight 6-gun CL at T6
  • T6 instead of T5 for no reason other than (I guess) the fact that a T6 cruiser sells for $24 instead of $18 and takes the same resources
  • Requires gimmick - specifically smoke which WG had seemed to go to war on with the spotting change and removal of Kutuzov/Belfast

 

I agree with most of this the last point however I disagree with they seem to be going down the road of the Kitakami by giving a under gunned CL a smoke screen 

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25 minutes ago, mofton said:

 

  • For a 'nation' no one seems to be that interested in

 

 

Now that is an understatement... 

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The only ship in the entire line I'm even remotely interested in playing is the Ghadja Mada. Because it's RN originally and not already in the game. Other than that they can keep the rest.

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27 minutes ago, mofton said:

Huang He is a conflux of all of my pet peeves:

  • Premium which never existed in that configuration
  • Premium with no history as a warship
  • For a 'nation' no one seems to be that interested in
  • Silly basic design of a lightweight 6-gun CL at T6
  • T6 instead of T5 for no reason other than (I guess) the fact that a T6 cruiser sells for $24 instead of $18 and takes the same resources
  • Requires gimmick - specifically smoke which WG had seemed to go to war on with the spotting change and removal of Kutuzov/Belfast

 

There was some call for a line here, small as it was and that doesn't include any that came from other forums and all, and can be debated. Configuration, yeah, can't find it's current one seeing as nothing I find indicates any changes made to it when she was sold to China. Which, to the other point it WAS a Warship. It was built as HMS Aurora (12), an Arethusa class light cruiser, that did participate in the hunt for Gnei/Scharn and Bismarck, The landings in Salerno and Operation Dragoon (landings in south France August 1944), was transferred to Nationalist China before the crew defected with the ship to Communist China, then sunk by Nationalist Aircraft and raised later with Russian assistance, to which the Russians stripped the ship as payment. And Spent the rest of her life as a Barracks ship, warehouse, etc into the 90's. It's true she was no longer a combat ship under the name Huang He, it was the name she used after the Russians stripped her, but I have a feeling they may have had reasons for going with that name as it's simply a river name, "Yellow River" to be exact, with no possible ties to anything really that would offend anyone in the region given there are issues with China and other nations that fall under "Pan-Asia" in regards to the line.

 

To it's tiering, that get's complicated. The ship itself is actually the successor class to Leander, at least chronologically, current stats give it a slight speed edge as well as better turning/rudder shift, better stealth, and significantly better AA than Leander. Also, a slightly higher fire rate to the guns that actually get HE, and while it has 1 torp less per tube has a 17 second faster reload. So, there's definitely an argument, with the current wiki stats, for it to be at tier 6. BFT, focus fire, nd choose DF AA over smoke against Lexington DB's it'd achieve 40% chance per second to shoot down a plane with mid-long range AA, imagine what it'd do to tier 6 or lower. And if we assume that the 9.5km detection range it has listed right now is with Camo, it actually can achieve with concealment expert a detection range of 8.3 km roughly with 8 km torpedoes. May not be stealth torping but given the speed and turn rate may be able to get in quick, launch, and retreat out of spotting range. Or enough that, with the right angles to the enemy, you can still launch from stealth but score a hit.

 

As to Smoke, well, it's a UK cruiser, and like Iwaki Alpha and the UK cruisers, is kinda fragile. Smoke needed a change in that yes, it was becoming problematic/frustrating to have 3/4/5 ships in a smoke screen/obscured by it that unless you could trace the fire back accurately, you couldn't hit while they just hammer you into oblivion, especially in matches where only 1 team maybe had a ship with smoke. But I still feel Wargaming has handled it wrong. Though, with any luck, the Halloween event mist was a test run on maybe making that ships are not TRULY spotted clear as day when firing maybe aiding in the ability to use smoke to retreat while firing or when ships get closer. Cause right now yeah, changes have over encouraged passive play. I agree with MK getting removed, smoke screen, devastating AA, 8 km torps, and a fire rate and chance to burn it all down. Belfast may be about as good, maybe a little better at starting fires, but lacks in AA without DF AA, has no torps, not even the repair UK cruisers usually get, the only thing that really made it an issue is the fact that it has smoke and radar, so even without spotting help, it could say, find a low island to protect the hull, smoke to conceal while firing and radar that would pass through everything so even if normally you couldn't spot the ship, but it'd spot you after you fired, it wouldn't spot you but you spot it. The only thing really overpowered about it wasn't even something about the ship, it's the fact that, whether Wargaming wants to acknowledge it or not, Radar is broken because it can go through islands to detect things. MK was truly OP, insert Russian bias jokes here, Belfast, it's a USN DD upsized with a citadel, no torps, worse detection, but gets radar and Hydro. And is a victim of something multiple ships have that is OP but people crying the ship as a whole is. Really, it's less that they went to war on smoke, much like CV's, they just seem to be grasping at straws to fix issues with it not really thinking about it and what really needs to change. Just trying to put band-aids on broken legs.

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5 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

There was some call for a line here, small as it was and that doesn't include any that came from other forums and all, and can be debated. Configuration, yeah, can't find it's current one seeing as nothing I find indicates any changes made to it when she was sold to China. Which, to the other point it WAS a Warship. It was built as HMS Aurora (12), an Arethusa class light cruiser,

Believe me, I know all about Aurora -

However, as Huang He she never fired a shot in anger. In this in-game configuration with Sovetsky Soyuz's secondary turrets and post war fantasy rebuild she did nothing. If the ship wants to claim Aurora's proud record it should be Aurora in a British tree. Huang He is nothing.

14 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

To it's tiering, that get's complicated. The ship itself is actually the successor class to Leander, at least chronologically, current stats give it a slight speed edge as well as better turning/rudder shift, better stealth, and significantly better AA than Leander. Also, a slightly higher fire rate to the guns that actually get HE, and while it has 1 torp less per tube has a 17 second faster reload.

I know the Arethusa's chronologically followed the Leander/Amphion classes, however they were purposefully reduced in size (HP decreases about 20% from 28.700 to 24,100), armor thickness and firepower - losing a turret as well as a torpedo per broadside. Yeah, torpedo reload is faster but in most cruiser torpedo engagements it's over in far less than 79s - either you've alpha struck them and won, or at lethal torpedo range and given 79s the target has killed you. I can't remember ever using torpedoes repeatedly in the same engagement in a cruiser.

The fact that they started at 8 RPM then buffed them again to 8.6 is simply a sign of desperately overtuning the ship. There's no real reason for 8.6 RPM, and no reason for it to have increased. The AA is WG's choice, and is frequently irrelevant - Cleveland has great AA at T6 and averages a mighty 2.2 planes a game - some proportion of which will be spotters. Given that I believe plane XP is worth the carrier XP / 40 that's a poor return. To an extent all that matters is DF or not for defense and in the range of gameplay scenarios those where having great AA matters are few and far between.

From a realism perspective they replaced the 18 ton 4in twin mounts with 45 ton mounts - on light ships already struggling with the extra topweight of radar and light AA guns etc and which originally had 7 ton single mounts. Those guns are an extra 108 tons high in the ship. No problem?

In short, many of the buffs are stupid - they tried torpedo reload booster too - the ship is intrinsically weaker than a Leander, incredibly weaker if the Huang lacks smoke and still weaker if they both get it. AA is WG's (bad) choice and is largely irrelevant.

30 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

As to Smoke, well, it's a UK cruiser, and like Iwaki Alpha and the UK cruisers, is kinda fragile. Smoke needed a change in that yes, it was becoming problematic/frustrating to have 3/4/5 ships in a smoke screen/obscured by it that unless you could trace the fire back accurately, you couldn't hit while they just hammer you into oblivion, especially in matches where only 1 team maybe had a ship with smoke.

If it's problematic to have half a team in smoke then adding more smoke emitting ships - especially cruisers, which may not be mirror-balanced with smoke, and especially at T6 where there's a dearth of radar seems a bad, bad idea. I see your point on smoke, but removing 2 of 3 decent-tier cruisers with smoke and then nerfing it across the board feels pretty warlike to me.

 

My personal bug-bear anyway.

 

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2 hours ago, mofton said:

-snip-

My personal bug-bear anyway.

 

 

Strange as this may sound, I'm not really disagreeing, except on AA but that's partially because I'm one of the few who plays CV's still. And another tier 6 with stupidly high AA power that can shred my tier 8 DB's, let alone any of my lower tier stuff, not a fan, Cleveland is bad enough. But that also does come down to an issue of number CV's which is a separate topic altogether.

 

I'll be first to say I don't know :etc_swear: about the Chinese, Taiwanese or any other navy under what would be Pan-Asia in this game other than the Allies and Russians supplied ships to the sides they liked. Like I said, I don't know if maybe they made modifications later or if it had anything to do with that aborted overhaul or whatever. Maybe it's similar to the one French cruiser completed to design specs of WWII, not what she was finished as or any of the ships that have upgrades that were intended but never made. Maybe they just gave it localized armament. I can understand the fact that yeah, under the name Huang He, never fired a shot, but like I also said later on this one, I really think the name is more about not ticking off any one side, same as why at least partially the line is called "Pan-Asia" and not an out right Chinese line and the fact the flag of the rising sun is not used in game even though Japanese ships still fly it. Before she was sunk and raised her name in China was that of the wartime capital, which was also the Nationalists capital, which could potentially stir up things that Wargaming doesn't want. I don't know what, if any real action it saw in China aside from being sunk, maybe shooting at the aircraft that sunk it, but they went with a later name that while not truly a warship at the time, is likely not going to cause any trouble on the Asia server or elsewhere. It should probably be under Aurora with a UK flag over it, they wanted to give Pan-Asia a cruiser, and needed a name that wouldn't upset anyone. 

 

Again, it as a tier 6, I see what they are going for, it's not just meant to be AA, but the HE that with the fire rate can burn everything while being stealthier and more maneuverable, with torps that combined with the stealth it can achieve can make a difference when played a certain way, as I said, likely can play with angles that you can torpedo a ship while staying undetected though yes, in a direct engagement 17 seconds may not help you. But I'm far from disagreeing with you it's a desperate attempt to up tier the ship. It's no different than Hood at 7, GZ at 8 when it's planes are at best tier 6 and 7, and that's being generous, and several other ships they tried to force up or down tiers and I just do not get what some of these people at Wargaming think when they make these calls. 

 

As to smoke, well, maybe I disagree here too. A change to smoke was needed and inevitable, I still think they botched how they did it, especially combined with the gun bloom issues still existing from the stealth fire nerf. I still think there has to be a better way that DD's and cruisers aren't really screwed and a BB if it has fired a salvo can still make use of it to retreat after having 5 ships hammering it. MK and Belfast being pulled for good (or at least until power creep or other changes maybe bring them more inline), while I still disagree with Belfast being pulled from sale, especially while Saipan is still a thing, it was almost inevitable with how much whining there was against the ship and MK as well. I can see where it can look like a war on it, at the same time, to me at least, it was simply inevitability.

 

I agree trying to get it to tier 6 is sketchy, and yeah, under that name, it just sat there as a hulk basically. But they likely needed a name that wouldn't offend anyone on either side of what is technically an on going conflict, and I can see why they are trying to make it a tier 6. 

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