If US or IJN Lines Were Released Today....

[Ace_04]

Hi everyone,

 

As we all know, WoWS was introduced with only IJN and USN tech trees right from inception.  Many changes have been made to them over time, but they are still fundamentally similar to how they were entering Open Beta.  However, with the inevitable power creep and addition of other nations to the game, it has made me raise an eyebrow to the current state of the USN and IJN tech trees.

 

• Is Yamato still the monster she once was compared to upstarts like Conqueror or Kurfurst?
• How bad is Shimakaze compared to other T10 DD's?
• Is New Orleans really the weakest T8 cruiser?

 

My main question to you is this: with the current meta and understanding of the game mechanics as we know them now, if any of the Japanese or American tech trees were added to the game today in their current state, would they be considered STRONG, AVERAGE, or DISAPPOINTING compared to their contemporaries?  

 

Remember, this question is being asked in the context of the entire line(s), and not individual ships.  I'm very curious to know what you guys think.

[HazardDrake]

If the 5"/38 USN DDs were released today, the guns would be getting emergency buffs in a micro patch. 

 

WG would be mocked for using an AP shell for the HE shell and giving it only a 5% chance of fire, but the same 1/6 pen. 

 

Bloom mechanics would get get looked at due to the 5"/38 arc making it ineffective at range. 

[Spartias]

4 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

If the 5"/38 USN DDs were released today, the guns would be getting emergency buffs in a micro patch. 

 

WG would be mocked for using an AP shell for the HE shell and giving it only a 5% chance of fire, but the same 1/6 pen. 

 

Bloom mechanics would get get looked at due to the 5"/38 arc making it ineffective at range. 

 

Soapbox much?

[IronMike11B4O]

8 minutes ago, Spartias said:

 

Soapbox much?

Irrelevant comments to the topic much?

[SeaborneSumo]

I rarely play US or IJN Cruisers or BBs anymore.  They're FAR outclassed by the German and UK BBs.   I much prefer the German BBs since their secondaries actually perform like they should. 

As for DDs, I still play IJN DDs, just not Shimmy too often.

[Spartias]

1 minute ago, IronMike11B4O said:

Irrelevant comments to the topic much?

 

It's as relevant as the comment I was quoting was.

[EvansBWC]

I imagine the IJN DDs would receive heavy flak when compared to the new Pan-Asian DDs coming out in regards to their terrible gun performance and torpedo detection.  As for the CA/CLs I figure most people are holding out for an expanded USN branch going into the deeper CA fields.

 

BB-wise both nations have their questionable tiers such as the Izumo and the Colorado.  You would probably see some discussion on citadel protection/survivability considering the KM BBs are incredibly well protected with turtle-back armor and the RN BBs have an incredibly powerful self-heal along with better performing HE.

[1nv4d3rZ1m]

Well the Yamato was nerfed several times and its competition has improved since it was released so no it is not the monster it once was. It used to have an improved heal and the AA used to be ok before WG redid the AA damage calculations. For a while after the game was released there was no point in playing another BB at tier 10 and people preferred playing the Iowa saying there was no point in getting the tier 10. 

 

I think the lines have some sticky points that newer lines dont have, ships like the Izumo and New York that are kind of road blocks. WG has said in the past that if they made the IJN BB line now they would have put something else in the place of the Izumo so I think there are probably a lot of changes that would be made. If WG made those lines now you probably wouldnt see a Cleveland at tier 6, and instead of the New Orleans at tier 8 probably the Wichita. With those changes to the tech trees I think those lines would be well received for the most part, IJN DDs and CVs is an entirely different matter though. 

 

[IronMike11B4O]

1 minute ago, Spartias said:

 

It's as relevant as the comment I was quoting was.

Just because you don't like what he has to say doesn't mean he is wrong. 

[Doomlock]

Akizuki would likely be well received, Yamato would bring in players because Yamato. As would Iowa, and Fletcher.

 

Honestly, you'd figure out the impact after the lines were finished. Because remember, IJN and USN shipped with all four lines.

[Middcore]

10 minutes ago, Spartias said:

 

It's as relevant as the comment I was quoting was.

 

Not really. His comment was about how a line of USN ships would be perceived if they were released today, which is the topic of the thread. Yours is basically just implying he brings that subject up too much in other threads... which may or may not be true, but you can't say it's off-topic here.

 

Personally I think some of this stuff should be brought up in every thread until WG follows up on their promises and does something about it. Carthago delenda est. 

[Frederick_The_Great]

If they were released today, they would be different in a lot of ways, and more than likely stronger than the lines before them.  power creep is strong in this game.  The CV imbalance would of been addressed.  Things like the Co Hp, new york being meh, or the meh guns on the US DDs.  They would of probably added a bunch of gimmicks on top of what the lines have already.(all high tier US BBs having radar?)  

 

6 minutes ago, Spartias said:

 

It's as relevant as the comment I was quoting was.

not even close.  their post was on topic.  your post isn't .take your axe else where.

[Ace_04]

14 minutes ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

If they were released today, they would be different in a lot of ways, and more than likely stronger than the lines before them.  power creep is strong in this game.  The CV imbalance would of been addressed.  Things like the Co Hp, new york being meh, or the meh guns on the US DDs.  They would of probably added a bunch of gimmicks on top of what the lines have already.(all high tier US BBs having radar?)  

The point of the question is if they were released as they are today, how would they stack up against the competition?

[Spartias]

25 minutes ago, IronMike11B4O said:

Just because you don't like what he has to say doesn't mean he is wrong. 

 

I never said I liked his point of view or disliked it. I merely noticed that he's been commenting on that train of thought non-stop among many different threads of late.

[Captain_Dorja]

I don't think the overall impression of a lot of the ships would vary that much honestly.

I think most people would consider both cruiser lines to be a bit weaker than most of the other cruiser lines in game, but at the same time I think the high tier USN cruisers would still be considered pretty capable since NoLa and Baltimore got their reload times reduced, with their strong AP, effective HE, potential for great AA when needed, but most importantly the radar.

I think USN BBs would be seen similar to how they are now, not really specifically great at anything (other than AA) but effective generalists that don't have too many massive glaring faults. In the same token, I don't think Yamato would be seen as being as strong (let's be honest, Yamato still maintains her reputation from the beta and she isn't the end all be all she once was). However, I think Yamato would still be considered a powerhouse just because of her sheer firepower. Like I used to say in WoT, "I'll overlook an awful lot of flaws if a tank comes with a really strong gun." Yamato arguably comes with the strongest guns in the game.

 

I don't know what to think about IJN DDs. In a way, I think people would just call them trash, but in another way, I think a lot of people would be less harsh on them if they came out now because they wouldn't be trying to compare them to back in the day when they were frankly broken. People say things like that Shimakaze is a garbage DD, but I enjoy it and find it to be as useful as Gearing. Not useful in the same ways, but it's worth having in my book. Yeah, it isn't the 2015 when the ultra long range torpedoes of death could just be fired at general parts of the map and would score 5 hits on 3 different targets 4 minutes after you rippled them off, but still a decent ship.

I'm pretty much out of thoughts right now.
 

[Frederick_The_Great]

3 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

The point of the question is if they were released as they are today, how would they stack up against the competition?

they would be meh or ok overall(or on your list, average to disappointing) with some stand outs in each line  here and there.  but, they wouldn't be released like that, going off of history.  power creep is real, and WG wouldn't want to release a bunch of new lines that were inferior or equal to the ones before.

 

i can only imagine what crazy stuff they would give to the IJN or USN lines. 

[ValkyrWarframe]

WoWS Blitz's USN and IJN lines about sums up any ship placement revisions we would see compared to how they were in beta.  Hard to imagine that the USN or IJN would necessarily have a different "flavor" than they do now, but I can see WG giving us the strongest-ever versions of the ships that ever existed (i.e. Yamato would have the buffed heal, Iowa/Montana would still have the lowered citadel) rather than leave them as victims of powercreep.  If anything, they might buff them beyond that point seeing as UK BBs would be the ones getting powercreeped (and they're already really damn strong).

[capncrunch21]

From an IJN perspective, I would rate the line as Disappointing now compared with the new comers.

Most of the Japanese DDs are outclassed now (especially with the recent nerfs), though there are some standouts (Akizuki, Kamikaze R). The cruiser line while not too bad, still suffers from being hit with power creep (many of the higher tier CAs are essentially slow firing citadels waiting to get machine gunned to oblivion before they even get a chance to reload by the likes of Fiji, etc.). And the BB line, once the crown of the IJN tech tree, is overshadowed now by fire spammers and 'no-citadel' lines of other countries (the Yamato is a glass cannon, being nothing more than a HUGE floating citadel - sure it has big guns - but they are only good against other BBs most of the time (can we say richocet off Russian CAs and overpen/meh damage against DDs, CAs, CVs? - I have literally hit a broadside DD with six (6!) HE shells from the Yamato and only taken half its health away. ONE 18" shell should have blown it in half). 

So yeah, from an IJN perspective, they have been power crept into a third rate fleet - though again, there are a few shining exceptions. 

[Xlap]

In general IJN and USN lines are still good and competitive. But a few ships could use some love from WG.  

 

Just because they are not the best anymore, it doesnt mean they are bad ships.

[Wowzery]

53 minutes ago, Xlap said:

Just because they are not the best anymore, it doesnt mean they are bad ships.

Yep, honestly as a BB main, I dislike the German line.  British line, is meh, I still enjoy the USN line the best.

[Speedstang]

Imo the German line is terribly overrated. I personally don't find them very fun at all compared to USN. Yes they have their turtleback armor, but they eat penetrations like crazy, even angled or bow on. The gun dispersion is ridiculous, the shells miss by several miles. Not to mention the guns tend to be much weaker throughout the line. As for IJN, I haven't used them too much, but the Kongo is amazing, and as much as you may claim Yamato has been powercreeped it's still the only ship that can murder things bow on. Full devastating strike style. 

 

If the lines were added today, there would obviously be a problem with the IJN DDs and USN CVs and such, but for BBs I still think both are worthy competitors to the Germans and British.

[1nv4d3rZ1m]

3 hours ago, capncrunch21 said:

From an IJN perspective, I would rate the line as Disappointing now compared with the new comers.

Most of the Japanese DDs are outclassed now (especially with the recent nerfs), though there are some standouts (Akizuki, Kamikaze R). The cruiser line while not too bad, still suffers from being hit with power creep (many of the higher tier CAs are essentially slow firing citadels waiting to get machine gunned to oblivion before they even get a chance to reload by the likes of Fiji, etc.). And the BB line, once the crown of the IJN tech tree, is overshadowed now by fire spammers and 'no-citadel' lines of other countries (the Yamato is a glass cannon, being nothing more than a HUGE floating citadel - sure it has big guns - but they are only good against other BBs most of the time (can we say richocet off Russian CAs and overpen/meh damage against DDs, CAs, CVs? - I have literally hit a broadside DD with six (6!) HE shells from the Yamato and only taken half its health away. ONE 18" shell should have blown it in half). 

So yeah, from an IJN perspective, they have been power crept into a third rate fleet - though again, there are a few shining exceptions. 

The Yamato is still very tough but it has to be angled correctly (i.e. not angled just bow on) it has a complex forward bulkhead that is angled (and historical) so angling actually reduces the effectiveness of that armor. When it is is correctly positioned the only ship that can citadel it is another Yamato. The Yamato guns also help vs tier 10 cruisers because several of them have large amounts of 30mm armor which 16 inch guns cant overmatch but 460mm guns can. Ships like the Zao are incredibly tanky vs 16" guns when angled because of that. 

[LowSpeed_US]

Having been a player who significantly enjoyed the IJN Destroyer lines due to their original intended use. I have enjoyed them, up until there were many small changes (but enough to alter your previously used tactics with them). Now, my Shimakaze just collects tourists in her port. 

If, and when I do take her out of port. It is for purely an entertainment factor. Taking her out with 20km armament.

 

The Fletcher (or Gearing), is a different beast all together. I have sailed her more, since she is capable to hold her own when situations changed abruptly. With Shimakaze, she is at a total back heel when breaking contact versus other destroyers in the game.

 

Obviously, this is reflected on my personal method of using them. Others naturally have different results, and methods that works for them.

 

[Winters_night]

I feel like if they came out as is the dumpster fires that are Hosho and Zuiho vs Langley and Bogue would get looked at vs just telling Hosho/Zuiho drivers to deal with being totally zoned out by the USN carriers

[Super_Dreadnought]

I don't play USN, but from the perspective of an IJN player.

 

BB: I'd probably think they were kinda average neither excelling or sucking at anything. there would be some standouts like Fuso, Yamato, Kongo, but imho overall nothing to convince me that i MUST grind this line.

 

CA: They would be underwhelming. Players would argue that Aoba does not belong at T6 and should be T5. Scream at WG to give the IJN CAs some WD40 for their god awful turret traverse. Dismiss the rear facing torps as an unusable gimmick. And be unconvinced at grinding a line of slow shooting heavy cruisers when rapid fire CLs like Kutusov and Belfast can pump out more DPS.

 

DD: If the IJN DD line were to come out today, I would not grind up the line.

 

CV: If the IJN (and USN) CV lines came out today, then it means that we would not have encountered aircraft carriers before save for maybe Graf Zeppelin. They'd be fine as such imho, and causing vast amounts of salt from crybabies to flow on the forums. Nerf CVs! Nerf TBs! I hate [edited] carrier players!... So imho business as usual.